Possible Bok team, with a few twists

I like Craig Lewis's choices but I too would prefer Willie than Gelant on present form but I'm not totally against him as well but yes under the high ball...not sure.

I would also like to see Esterhuizen and Am at 12 and 13...the Sharks combo that seems to be working.

On present form Robert Du Preez at 10 but Pollard seems to have found part of his old self. Lambie is a good standby.

I like Faf too and the only reservation I have left is Kolisi, we certainly could do better there but he will be there whether we like it or not ...the perfect solution would have been Marcel Coetzee but Ulster have tied him up..The rest is fine but Kitshoff too cannot be discarded.

Some solid obvious choices ... but a lot of rubbish as well.

My selection would look something like this.

15. Combrinck

14. Tambwe

13. Venter

12. Odendaal

11. Nkosi

10. Willemse

9. Papier

8. Ackermann

7. Du Preez

6. Kriel

5. Du Toit

4. Etzebeth

3. Wilco Louw

2. Marx

1. Schoeman

16. Acker vd Merwe

17. Van Rooyen

18. Dreyer

19. Schickerling

20. Whiteley

21. Shaun Venter

22. Pollard

23. Gelant.

There you go, Mike.

Hope you're happy with my alternatives.

CC

That is a nice selection by you – although there are a few problems where we will differ.   However, I am not going to attack the players you support other than to say that I would prefer at this stage to see Willemse being phased in by playing him from the bench.  Same with Papier.    Mitchell seems prefer Van Zyl to Papier since  after his return from injury the former is the starting scummie of the Bulls.

I like Schickerling as a lock a lot.   He is a certain Springbok in future.   However, I do not see him in the June  series unless his present injury is cleared up soon. 

So let me give you a list where aside from the above I differ from you –

*  Venter

*   Odendaal

*    Ackerman

*    Dreyer

That is little enough in the broader picture -  but I can live with most.   However, the question is what is really going to happen as to our likes and dislikes.   We may both be very wrong in the final analysis

Seb

Coetzee would have been an obvious choice at 8 - but he has played virtually no rugby over the past two years,   He had a serious knee injury last year - was operated on - and played one game this year and the knee problem was back.   He left Ireland and came back to SA for treatment and nothing has been heard about him subsequently.

When he did play he was very effectively used by Ulster as an 8 and if he was fit he would be my first choice at 8 - but will he play rugby again?   Hope he does - but there is no certainty of that.    

Mike yes but he can play flank effectively as well which he did at the Sharks and did well...I always admired his play...his injury was extremely unfortunate...this man is talent deluxe but his value was such with Ulster that they were patient with his recovery and still thought he is a good investment despite that...Marcel was a player we should have done everything to prevent him going over to N. Ireland.

Mike ... you loose trio would be ... ?

6. Kolisi, 7 Wiese, 8. JL Du Preez ... ??

Does that sound about right?

 No it does not.   If all players were fit it would be Coetzee, Du Preez and Kriel - but two of those have been injured and would not be available soon.   In the absence of Kriel I prefer Kwagga at 6

I see Wiese as a longer term prospect - he is still very young (20 years old) - but he was injured and did not play regularly for the Stormers this year.

Thought this very good and relevant article and highlights some weakness in SA mindset.

South Africa’s confusion of openside and blindside flankers.

October 27, 2016 by steverigby1974 2 Comments

I played flank in high school in South Africa and played openside flank when I played for the u20’s at Ballymena rugby club in Northern Ireland. I played as I imagine most  South African youngsters did left or right flank so when I got to Ireland I had to relearn my role of being an openside flanker and realised the role is a far more specific job.

“Fundamentally similar to the blindside flanker, the openside equivalent is usually smaller and more agile, with extra pace to provide impetus to attacks” from Talk rugby union

My first rugby hero was Wahl Bartmann. If ever there was a player to display superhero levels of courage and committment it was Bartmann. I thought the man was indestructable. When South Africa were first allowed back into international rugby back in 1992 Bartmann was of course selected. It soon became apparent that Bartmann lacked the pace and skills to play at international level.

I soon forgot about Bartmann when a younger faster more skillful player replaced Bartmann in the Transvaal team. I was at Ellis Park with friends from school and I asked my mate if I could look in his matchday programme because I wanted to know who this blond guy playing at no.6 was. The player was Francois Pienaar.

I had watched most of the games in the 1991 RWC even though South Africa were not allowed to compete in the tournament due to the international cultural and sports boycott because of Apartheid. During this competition I saw that Michael Jones played at no.7 (openside flank).

“Both an openside and blindside flanker get their names from their positions at the scrum. They don’t line up left and right, but rather, their positions depend on where a scrum is on the pitch. An openside will pack down on the side of the scrum that is furthest to the touchline, and is usually the side that teams have the majority of their backline, while the blindside flanker covers the narrower of the two sides.” from Balls.IE

I was aware of this difference from quite early on in my own rugby life. Peter Winterbottom the England opensider was a player I greatly admired. He often left the pitch bloodied and battered and had given every ounce of physical effort he could whilst on the pitch. These openside flankers intrigued me and I have spent a lifetime specifically watching these players on a rugby pitch.

When defending a scrum, it’s an openside flankers job to get out to the opposition backline as soon as possible, in an attempt to minimise any tackles his outhalf would have to make. Outhalves are traditionally the worst tacklers on a rugby pitch, because their job is to direct a team, not make tackles. Opensides also have to cover number eight picks on their side, or if the scrumhalf decides to go himself, the openside also covers him.” from Balls.IE

I don’t know when or where this role became so specific. Was it during the years when South African rugby was in isolation? A little clue to the development of this position might be in the Kiwi term of wing forward.

“Before it was outlawed in the 1930s, New Zealand used a 2-3-2 scrum formation that used seven forwards and not eight. The wing-forward did not participate in the scrum and would feed the ball in the scrum instead of the half-back.” from the full wiki

South Africa has been slow to accept and incorporate the specifics of openside flanker roles into their rugby. Around 2008 South Africa began buying into the idea of a ‘fetcher’ flank. They had seen the value these players added to a team by watching players like George Smith of Australia, Martin Williams of Wales and of course Richie McCaw of New Zealand.

Dreadlocked George Smith, ball in two hands from a coaches point of view that is brilliant

“The breakdown aspect is the main difference between an openside and blindside flanker. An openside’s job in defense is to get over the ball to try and steal or win a penalty. A good openside will know when there is an opportunity to jackal the ball, and when to back off and keep the defensive line. Players like McCaw, Warburton and Armitage are extremely good over the ball, either stealing it, winning penalties, or slowing opposition attacks down.” Balls.IE

South Africa could see the value this added to their defence but never felt comfortable with taking away from the physical domination of a forward pack that was required to subdue and suffocate by picking a small man at no.6(South Africa is the only country which puts a 6 instead of a 7 on the opensiders top). Heinrich Brussouw contributed to many Springbok victories but Domkrag coaches just didn’t like that he was so small.

“In attack, an openside tasked with the sole responsibility of supporting line breaks. While other back row players are used to carry ball and generate go forward, an openside is often the first player at an attacking breakdown to clean out defensive players, and stop the possibility of a breakdown. They are frequently the first player on the shoulder of an attacker when a linebreak is made, and are frequently thought of as the link player between one phase and the next. Michael Hooper and Justin Tipuric are prime examples of this.” Balls.IE

Marcell Coetzee

South Africa have played to a Domkrag gameplan for many many years and what that means is that openside flankers and no.8’s generally carry ball straight into contact off of first phase ball. Like Marcell Coetzee or Schalk Burger whereas a player like Richie McCaw or Michael Hooper would wrap around the backline and then pick a line into space somewhere out in the midfield linking up with the backs. They have the speed and skill set to fit into a backline. Hooper has incredible acceleration and has caught out many defences. It gives width to the game. Coetzee’s and Burger’s tactic would be to run straight at the flyhalf and stepping into space rather than bowling straight into the smaller guy just wouldn’t cross their minds.

Two opensiders that if  I looked back in history would have had a huge influence on the modern day attacking game of an openside flanker. Josh Kronfeld of New Zealand who had an incredible engine on him, he seemed to cover huge distances in tireless running of support lines. In the 1995 RWC he scored a few tries doing just this often picking up a pass after Jonah Lomu had caused all kinds of destruction. The other being Laurent Cabannes of France. The French have always had flair, Cabannes’s flair could rival any inside centre the world over. French attacks were very often intiated by this man but as any true no.7 would he was often there to finish it off too. Some would argue that a player already existed that had both these attributes and then some, that man was Michael Jones (the Iceman) of All Black fame.

The Iceman in action against the Aussies

I was recently incensed when Joel Stransky commented during match commentary that Jaco Kriel doesn’t play to the ball like Francois Louw does. Just because an opensider shows up well in attack does not mean he shirks his work on defence. Jaco Kriel is as modern an opensider as Michael Hooper. I would urge Joel to take a closer look.

There does seem to be a trend of opensiders playing in SA that seem to have learnt their trade by looking at McCaw or Pockock  rather than Burger. Players like Roelof Smit, Kwagga Smith and Ruan Lerm of course Jaco Kriel is included in this new breed.

Why don’t South Africa start falling in line with the rest of the rugby world and put a 7 on the back of the opensider. This could be the first step away from the Domkrag era.

He's had to undergo more surgery.

I don't think we'll see much of him this year.

And we need some sense on site - I suppose we will never have that with Mozart around.

Let me remind Mozart of the loosies he supported all out in the past - Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen.   Louw was no good as an opensider - he was too slow for that, Alberts was a prop pretending he was a loosie - slower in pace than most props - and Vermeulen was outstanding until his injury in 2015 - since then he was going downhill fast.  

None of those could ever get to breakdown points unless it happens less than 5 meters from where they were and I will always remember one case where Alberts was a meter away and he could have recovered the ball - but the clumsy bugger fell over his own feet resulting in a try by Messam.

Burger got progressively worse as he got older and ended his Springbok career as stand-in flyhalf for Meyer.

South Africa have played to a Domkrag gameplan for many many years and what that means is that openside flankers and no.8’s generally carry ball straight into contact off of first phase ball. Like Marcell Coetzee or Schalk Burger whereas a player like Richie McCaw or Michael Hooper would wrap around the backline and then pick a line into space somewhere out in the midfield linking up with the backs. They have the speed and skill set to fit into a backline. Hooper has incredible acceleration and has caught out many defences. It gives width to the game. Coetzee’s and Burger’s tactic would be to run straight at the flyhalf and stepping into space rather than bowling straight into the smaller guy just wouldn’t cross their minds.

Both players Marcell and Schalk were great flankers but "dragooned" if you excuse the term into Domkrag gameplan.

Our rugby has been infested by this and I read that in some school coaching the disease is spreading.

Ka Maid, Schalk's dad was a lock. Adri Geldenhuys too...and it's Corné Krige.

Ka Maid, I see you used the more commen spelling for both Krige and Geldenhuys. How would a NZder make that mistake?

I see the Boks of old left some deep scars on some AB supporters... luckily most Kiwis on this site are better sports than the few bitterbalz.

The difference between Schalk Burger and McCaw was that Burger played to the rules .. while McCaw spent most of his time coming in from the side ... playing the ball off his feet ... and spending a considerable amount of time on the wrong side of the ruck ... in other words, off side.

Of course, being a Kiwi he was allowed to get away with it. They have an entirely different set of rules to play by and that includes reduced suspensions for foul play ... etc..

In the end he was haled by his fellow country men as a great All Black.

Cracks me up every time.

The openside flank is usually a little smaller than the blindsider and should know the art of playing to the ground.

The blind side flank is usually an enforcer type, much like Alberts, Juan Smith and Andre Venter. All three were very physical and contributed to many a Bok victory. What I'd give for a Willem Alberts today.

It's probably why the likes of a Lappies will never make it as a test 7. He's just too small and cannot compete against the bigger boys regarding physicality.

Often we see these smaller types donning the 7 jersey and failing miserably.

Each has his role ... and each role is very different to the other.

We should return to the traditional roles of our flank forwards. Therein lies our victory.

I prefer your team to that of Craig Lewis.

Plum, is Apple any relation to you?...LOL

All we need now is a Paw Paw and a Banana and then we can have fruit salad....Bahahahahahahaha

We once had a Jalapeno  but somehow he did not fit in to the forum salad...looks like things are sweetening up

Haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha.

On his mother's sister's side twice removed, Sebastien.

Rohan would be my inside center if he were healthy.

He has a few little issues that can easily be sorted out.

I still rate him as our best 12 ... hands-down.