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FORUM / RUGBY /  Possible Bok vs Pom line ups

Possible Bok vs Pom line ups

Started by Mozart25 REPLIES705 VIEWS· 06 Mar 2018, 21:20
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Mar 2018, 21:20
#1
06 Mar 2018, 21:20#1
I think we will find Rassie has a lot of respect for the chaps playing up north, all these discussions with players will lead to selections. So here is the possible line-up with the advantage indicated by position: 15 Brown vs Willie.....B. 14 Watson vs Ismaiel .....E. 13 Joseph vs Am.....E 12 Farrell vs Rohan....E 11 May vs Lleyds...E 10 Ford vs Pollard...B 9 Care vs Cronje...E 1 Vunipola vs Kitshoff....B 2 Hartley vs Marx....B 3 Cole vs Wilco....B 4 Launchbury vs Etzebeth...B 5 Itoje vs Stephanie.....E 6 Lawes vs Mostert...B 7 Robshaw vs Louw....B 8 Hughes vs Whiteley...E I have gone off the Pom numbering system for 6/7. The Pom team is the one that played Scotland, the Bok team is one that seems somewhat likely, particularly in the forwards....not my team. But on the basis of those comparisons I come up with a Bok edge in 8 slots. The problem is the deficits at wing, outside centre and scrumhalf are potentially catastrophic. Also the English pack plays very well as a unit...the Boks are still individuals Interestingly bearing on another discussion the contrast with a Kriel, Kwagga, Whiteley loose forward unit and a Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes/ Vunipola unit couldn't be more stark.
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
06 Mar 2018, 21:36
#2
06 Mar 2018, 21:36#2

Elliot Daley is back as well. Also Hartley has a niggle which has allowed for Luke Cowan Dickie (very impressive) to join the squad. 


Sam Symonds is another to watch as well as Hill and Jack Willis

May is just a sprinter. Nowell or Watson are much more dangerous. 

Hughes is a unit going forward but I feel that He plays in fits and starts.


Ford might be dropped as well with Farrell moving to flyhalf and Ben Teo starting in the 12 jersey.


Joseph has lost his edge a bit since Ford left Bath. Not sure he fits in the English team anymore.

Looking forward to the Tests.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Mar 2018, 21:43
#3
06 Mar 2018, 21:43#3
Good comments Xavi, Daley is one of my favourite players to watch. Smart and fast. My sense is the loss of Vinnie Vunipola and Tuilagi a while back has really made the Poms less dangerous.
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
06 Mar 2018, 21:59
#4
06 Mar 2018, 21:59#4
He certainly is quick. If I was Eddie I'd play him at 13. 
Henry Slade whilst a tad small is another great 13 that can feel unlucky not yo be in the Eng squad.
Browns days are numbered though and Anthony Watson is more than likely to replace him.
Can't believe Dan Robson has not had a look in from Eddie yet. Miles better that either Care or Wigglesworth. 



Watched Piet van Zyl for London Irish on Saturday. Box kick after box kick. He probably had to change boots at half time ( stripped the leather off the uppers).. 
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:03
#5
06 Mar 2018, 22:03#5

....you yarpies should'nt be using the word pom as it's derogatory term...just saying

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:08
#6
06 Mar 2018, 22:08#6
I watched Slade in the first half of the Exeter/ Sarries match...second half with my next elliptical workout. He is a very competent player. They would be well advised to deep six Ford.....the rare special pass doesn't offset defensive weaknesses and inability to beat a tackle. And he doesn't even have kicking responsibility.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:15
#7
06 Mar 2018, 22:15#7
Let me help you again Bricy: .......... CLAIM: “Pommy” (or “pom”), a slang term for a British person, comes from the acronym POHM, which was used to designate a “Prisoner of His Majesty.” STATUS: FALSE. ORIGINS: “Pommy” (or “pom” or “pommie”) is a primarily Australian (and largely derisive) slang term used to indicate a recent immigrant from Great Britain, or a Brit in general. The origins of “pommy” having been lost in the mists of time, someone needed to cook up an etymology for it, preferably one equal to the pejorative sense of the word. Accordingly, we now have the story that criminals transported to Australia were designated “Prisoners of His Majesty” or “Prisoners of Mother England” (some versions claim the convicts bore one of these legends printed on the backs of their shirts), and thus the acronym “POHM” or “POME” eventually evolved into the slang term “pom” or “pommy.” This amusing anecdote is doubtful as anything more than a fanciful invention, as acronymic origins antedating the mid-twentieth century are automatically suspect, and the use of “pommy” has been recorded at least as far back as 1915. Moreover, nobody has yet turned up corroborating evidence that “Prisoner of His Majesty” or “Prisoners of Mother England” were actually common designations for criminals transported to Australia. The best guess at this time is that “pommy” was based on the word “pomegranate” — either because the redness of the fruit supposedly matched the typically florid British complexion, or because (like “Johnny Grant”) it was used as rhyming slang for “immigrant.” ... You're welcome.
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:18
#8
06 Mar 2018, 22:18#8

Sorry about that hori.


@Mozart


Agreed on Ford. 

Tana Umaga's nephew Jacob Umaga is with Wasps academy and looks good. Learning under Cipriani,Gopperth and I would imagine Sopoanga next season. 

Eddie likes Marcus Smith but I think Jacob will have his place in the not to distant future.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:24
#9
06 Mar 2018, 22:24#9
...haha, there's two kinds of people in the world 1) those that understand and appreciate sarcasm... 2) fucken morons...
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:25
#10
06 Mar 2018, 22:25#10

Yawn

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:33
#11
06 Mar 2018, 22:33#11
That kid Simmonds who was playing flyhalf for Exeter was pretty impressive I thought. It's a pity, I always pull for the team playing Exeter because they use the Florida State football team chant. The family had allegiances to the Universityof Florida and the chant reminds me of some rough moments,
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
06 Mar 2018, 22:40
#12
06 Mar 2018, 22:40#12

Ja and I believe it was only his first start.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2018, 02:17
#13
07 Mar 2018, 02:17#13

Mozart

As mentioned above there are likely to be changes to the English side and I do believe that the side you posted are unlikely to be selected in the case of a number of positions

One would get a clearer picture later in the season - but I think Lleyds, Am, Cronje, Louw and Mostert are at best quess work on your side.       

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Mar 2018, 02:49
#14
07 Mar 2018, 02:49#14
They are guess work, but with a bit of logic.....firstly there is the Quota thing. Given we have no clear 13 that suggests Am might have a shot Lleyds is a poor defender but quite.a smart player, is part of the set-up and he is a better bet than Skosan. Cronje is a journeyman player, but he is the incumbent and none of the domestic alternatives are close to proving themselves. Louw gives us a leader and fetcher. Mostert's move to flank has been generally applauded and makes good sense....he is a brilliant lineout player as he showed with the crucial steal on Saturday. But the point here is not to say these will be the teams....just running a ruler over two seemingly possible teams.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
07 Mar 2018, 08:07
#15
07 Mar 2018, 08:07#15

You only have 3 players of colour in your run on side. That's not going to be accepted.

Rassie will want to make a statement right off the bat and the only way to do that is to bring in a lot more quotas. Show his bosses that he's true to his word.

So ... we can expect most of the quotas that Coetzee brought in with a few additions.

I don't think the overseas contingent will feature much as most of those players are white ... and old news.

Instead of Le Roux we'll see Gelant ... instead of Louw we'll see Kolisi ... as captain ... instead of Kitshoff we"ll see the usual elderly Beast. He will find spots for them. He has no choice as he's committed himself to their cause.

We are going to see some shock omissions ... and some absurd inclusions. 

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
07 Mar 2018, 14:18
#16
07 Mar 2018, 14:18#16
Rassie is a smart bugger, but lets face the facts. A Bok side weakened by Quotas and in their first game under a brand new coach is always going to battle. But add to that, the fact that they will be playing against a very settled English side that has won 18 of its last 20 games and is being coached by an even smarter coach, and unfortunately, things don't bode well for the Boks in the June series. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2018, 14:28
#17
07 Mar 2018, 14:28#17

I think the Boks will lose the first two matches (Wales and England) with weakened teams based on quota selections and Rassie will then go back and say on cannot play opposition teams with weaker players selected on the basis of race and not competence.

Lets wait and see what happens..

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
07 Mar 2018, 14:29
#18
07 Mar 2018, 14:29#18
Just on the actual Line-ups, I reckon a lot will change between now and June. Hopefully a few new guys will put up their hands in Super Rugby. Also, there are bound to be numerous injuries as well. The English team should be relatively similar to that posted by Mozter, but I reckon the Boks are going to be substantially different.   
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2018, 15:16
#19
07 Mar 2018, 15:16#19

BB

I have said repeatedly in the past that there are problem positions where Super Rugby performances can eliminate certain problems.

I also wrote that there are players to look out for,   In that category I mentioned a number of players one of which was Cobus Wiese,   As indicated by Sanzaar making him the player of the game last Saturday against on of the top teams in Super Rugby that guy is a special case,   Continued performances like on Saturday will represent one of the answers  to our loosie problem.

I think that another problem could be the scrummie issue,   I mentioned Ivan van Zyl, Schreuder and Papier as players one must look out for,   Van Zyl is still injured, but Schreuder did very well on Saturday,   Papier was on the bench so far - but he should be watched carefullywhen he gets more playing time.

When one look at individual performances and notice positive and improved performance by individual players one should at least not refuse to take note of those and try and divert attention away from such players - as happened as a result of prejudice and nothing else.      

I think we must assess objectively especially the backline and loosie situation where in my view  we are identify good performance and even deficiencies on a weekly basis case.   By doing that  I  think that by doing so there will be further clarity on especially the proble m positions.     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Mar 2018, 16:10
#20
07 Mar 2018, 16:10#20
The Beast for Kitshoff and Kolisi for Louw are probably quite likely. Hard on Kitshoff, but the Beast has never let us down....Kolisi's missing suit is fetching.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2018, 17:44
#21
07 Mar 2018, 17:44#21

Mozart

Unfortunately total absence of ball protection and recovery is not the only missing skills in the case of Kolisi - I also think he has defense deficiencies as well.   

An example is from the game against the Crusaders Saturday last week:-

Turnovers conceded     -    1

Tackles made                -    5

Missed tackles              -    3

One would think that an opensider has more opportunities to make tackles - but is seems clear that it does not apply to Kolisi,   Kolisi normally have a low to medium tackle count - much lower than what is really acceptable.   A good loosie - especially an opensider - will have up to double his count.    

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
08 Mar 2018, 08:14
#22
08 Mar 2018, 08:14#22

Mike ... you were a fan of Kolisi once. Clearly you've had a change of heart. It's taken you a few seasons to see just how over-rated this chump is. I have told you over and over that he isn't an open side flank ... in fact, I've gone as far as to suggest that he isn't much more than an average blindsider at club level.

Welcome back to reality.

All the hype we've seen in various media formats about him had the ignorant very excited last year. It stuns me at times just how many clueless fools follow this sport ... each with his own expert opinion ... which seems to change as soon as the media latches on to someone else.

Is thinking for oneself really that difficult?

Wiese has the potential to go far but if I remember correctly you thought the same of Serfontein, Jesse Kriel, De Allende and Lood De Jager. They all turned out to be test duds.

As far as I'm concerned our tight 5 and 8th man is sorted.

We need to settle on a 6 & 7 in our pack.

It seems to me that we have a new challenger in Mostert for the 7 jersey, who just so happens to be the best line out jumper in the country. Can Wiese compete with that ... in fact can Wiese compete with Mosterts incredible work rate?

I see you've bad mouthed Mostert ... and can understand why as he's a threat to your boy Wiese.

You speak a lot of prejudice ... I would suggest that you keep an open mind and see the talent that is Mostert and consider him as a possible perfect fit at 7.
   
We have the players to cover all positions ... in fact I believe we have the players to stand 3 deep for every position ... including at scrummie and flyhalf.
 
All we need to do is select them.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2018, 09:14
#23
08 Mar 2018, 09:14#23

CC

I agree with you on most issues and think and hope that I am objective. 

However, I for years had doubts about Kolisi and said so in the past - was never really a fan of his and that came out in my repetitive criticism of our defective loosies over a lengthy period of times.

As to Mostert I was not impressed with his performance as a 7,   Matter of fact is the media hype was overwhelming and not in line with a fairly low work rate - both iro ball carries and tackles made.   

I m not at all favouring Wiese at this stage.  There is no doubt he was top class against the Crusaders - he did three times as much then Mostert did on Saturday - hence his Sanzaar designating him as Super Rugby Player of the Week,   He also took balls in the line-outs on Saturday and also previously for the Stormers,  Insofar as line-outs are concerned in the case of loosies they are there as alternative jumpers - their other work is to my mind of more importance.

However, in the case of both Mostert and Wiese I would like to see much more of them playing at 7 before I really would form a firm opinion on the two of them.

As to the other players I differ from you only iro De Jager.   He was outstanding for the Cheetahs and his form and up to the semi-finals of the WC in 2015 when he was considered as a possible player of the Tournament.  When he moved to the Bulls his performances  took a dive when playing for the Bulls and for the Springboks,   That could perhaps be accounted for as the result of the dud coaches he had to contend with.   In the game against the Hurricanes he was top class - much like he was in the past.  I also took note that up to this stage he was the highest point scorer in Foxsport - that being based on actual performances - nothing else.   However, my norm remains - one has to always see consistency in performance and have to watch out what happens from here onwards,

As to backline players none - even Pollard - had a  snowballs hope in hell playing successfully under Meyer and Coetzee - so I do think we should follow them under new management in future and see whether they can perform in future.  That is why I am going to look at the performances of players in the Super Rugby series and comment on those in three categories - top class, good and above average.

It would be very good if other members could join in the process and suggest changes.   I will do the first three rounds first and will follow that up on a weekly basis afterwards.   I will concentrate mainly on the loosies, halfbacks and centers - dealing with other positions only in exceptional circumstances.   Your participation in this type of thread will be enlightening and sincerely appreciated.

We can then also come up with a progressive team up to that stage of the tournament on a weekly basis for inputs by all members.

     

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
08 Mar 2018, 09:25
#24
08 Mar 2018, 09:25#24

We must have been watching a different match because what I saw of Mostert impressed me greatly.

As you said ... consistency is key and hopefully we'll see a lot more of Mostert and Wiese at 7 this season.

I also like Philip vd Walt. Have for some time now. Don't write him just yet.

Your idea sounds like fun.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2018, 09:57
#25
08 Mar 2018, 09:57#25

My best advice on foxsport - buy De Jager.  LOL.  However, because of the injury to Schickerling I have provisionally chose De Jager as lock,   I am also buying Wiese even though he is not playing this week,  He scored 60 points against the Crusaders.

If you get an opportunity buy Wiese as well - he is likely to play next week,   

I am working on the item I mentioned and hope to post it later today.

AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
08 Mar 2018, 12:52
#26
08 Mar 2018, 12:52#26

Lleyds is sound technically but I have my doubts whether we will see him under Rassie, doesn't appear to have the build for Test Rugby.

— END OF THREAD —

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