do the Boks need to play like the AB's?
Without a great deal of debate....a simple yes or no will do....tx
And OBTHW.....my answer is a flat, No.
Captain12,893 posts
03 Dec 2013, 14:19
#1
03 Dec 2013, 14:19#1
Question for SAFFA's....
Started by Denny11 REPLIES921 VIEWS· 03 Dec 2013, 14:19
Pro9,374 posts
03 Dec 2013, 14:33
#2
03 Dec 2013, 14:33#2
No.
And OBTW............. the abbreviation is actually OBTW and not OBTHW. Prozacmike do not understand the correct ones. Imagine how he would suffer with the wrong ones.
And OBTW............. the abbreviation is actually OBTW and not OBTHW. Prozacmike do not understand the correct ones. Imagine how he would suffer with the wrong ones.
Captain30,741 posts
03 Dec 2013, 15:19
#3
03 Dec 2013, 15:19#3
No, but we need to learn how to select a squad like the AB's do.......for a start you select your best 15 and to that you add the best of the youngsters......its simple really.
You don't have a core that is supplemented by a bunch of washed up has beens.........its pretty obvious really
Pro4,146 posts
03 Dec 2013, 18:05
#4
03 Dec 2013, 18:05#4
If the answer is a No, then at least try to copy the colour of our Jersey or anything resembling a kiwi - yes, specific examples include England, France, and surprisingly the Boks with those 3 Canterbury kiwis on the Jersey - Yep, imitation is certainly the best form of flattery. You guys are too much , we're just humble kiwis.
Coach57,555 posts
03 Dec 2013, 18:52
#5
03 Dec 2013, 18:52#5
Denny
My answer is NO. We must play our own style of rugby - but be able to contain their format of playing the game.
Club Pro247 posts
03 Dec 2013, 20:23
#6
03 Dec 2013, 20:23#6
No, but we have a long road to travel before we will be in the same league as them.
I have some complicated thoughts on this matter that wont be popular amongst most Bok supporters but it has become abundantly clear (to me at least) that the Springboks will not overtake the All Blacks as the consistently Nr 1 ranked rugby team in the world.
You said dont over elaborate, so I wont but to summarize while we have the level of provincialism and favoritism we will never be in the same league as the All Blacks.
An example is - Our second choice flyhalf is given minimal game time and then certain people furiously celebrate when he cannot deliver what the guy that is given 90% of the game time delivers. At the same time the All Blacks bring Beauden Barrett (a virtual unknown a season or two ago) onto the field and he immediately makes an impact. That is because he isn't there as a 'second or third choice'. That example in many ways epitomizes my point but this is a long discussion full of opinion that gets a lot of people very mad. Poor succession planning due to an antiquated, hard headed attitude.
I have some complicated thoughts on this matter that wont be popular amongst most Bok supporters but it has become abundantly clear (to me at least) that the Springboks will not overtake the All Blacks as the consistently Nr 1 ranked rugby team in the world.
You said dont over elaborate, so I wont but to summarize while we have the level of provincialism and favoritism we will never be in the same league as the All Blacks.
An example is - Our second choice flyhalf is given minimal game time and then certain people furiously celebrate when he cannot deliver what the guy that is given 90% of the game time delivers. At the same time the All Blacks bring Beauden Barrett (a virtual unknown a season or two ago) onto the field and he immediately makes an impact. That is because he isn't there as a 'second or third choice'. That example in many ways epitomizes my point but this is a long discussion full of opinion that gets a lot of people very mad. Poor succession planning due to an antiquated, hard headed attitude.
Captain30,741 posts
03 Dec 2013, 20:41
#7
03 Dec 2013, 20:41#7
Spot on Sharky and the regression of going back to older players is doing us no favours at all.
Bottom line is that our coach is too conservative for the role.
Club Pro247 posts
03 Dec 2013, 21:07
#8
03 Dec 2013, 21:07#8
This is how I think the Kiwis would look at it. So we have the 5 major unions permitted to participate in Super rugby in SA at present. This is a well established competition widely recognized as the toughest rugby competition in the world due to its length and the quality of players coming from the worlds 3 top ranked rugby nations. Lets also admit that Super rugby and not the Currie Cup is the biggest basis for our Springbok selections.
So lets go down the list and check our best flyhalf per team:
Stormers: Elton Jantjes ?
Bulls: Morne Steyn for sure.
Sharks: Patrick Lambie for sure.
Cheetahs: ? You cant pick Goosen because he was injured all season. So is it Riaan Smit ?
Kings: Catrakilis for sure.
Lets be completely un-provincial and honest here. Morne is still the best - no doubt. So there we go Nr 1 = Morne (three cheers in Pretoria for that !!! lol). Who is the second choice ? For me that is between Catrakilis and Lambie. You cant pick Goosen - he has not played enough this season). So, in my opinion (and it appears the Springbok coach), Patrick Lambie remains our Nr 2.
BUT Patrick Lambie is in fact not a Nr 2. Patrick Lambie is not even Morne Steyn's backup. Pat Lambie is only there to play the few minutes at the end of a game, if and when Morne Steyn is tired. So yes, Morne is still the best but while our approach is as it is - Pat Lambie will never be completely ready to step into his shoes until the day he is forced to.
So we hope and pray ? We do things the way we always have. We wait for a miracle....for a young flyhalf to take the field and kick the winning goal against the B&I Lions so that we have a justification to give him game time. Sorry to say but it is dumb guys....compared to the Kiwis our approach is old fashioned and dumb....again, sorry to say it.
So lets go down the list and check our best flyhalf per team:
Stormers: Elton Jantjes ?
Bulls: Morne Steyn for sure.
Sharks: Patrick Lambie for sure.
Cheetahs: ? You cant pick Goosen because he was injured all season. So is it Riaan Smit ?
Kings: Catrakilis for sure.
Lets be completely un-provincial and honest here. Morne is still the best - no doubt. So there we go Nr 1 = Morne (three cheers in Pretoria for that !!! lol). Who is the second choice ? For me that is between Catrakilis and Lambie. You cant pick Goosen - he has not played enough this season). So, in my opinion (and it appears the Springbok coach), Patrick Lambie remains our Nr 2.
BUT Patrick Lambie is in fact not a Nr 2. Patrick Lambie is not even Morne Steyn's backup. Pat Lambie is only there to play the few minutes at the end of a game, if and when Morne Steyn is tired. So yes, Morne is still the best but while our approach is as it is - Pat Lambie will never be completely ready to step into his shoes until the day he is forced to.
So we hope and pray ? We do things the way we always have. We wait for a miracle....for a young flyhalf to take the field and kick the winning goal against the B&I Lions so that we have a justification to give him game time. Sorry to say but it is dumb guys....compared to the Kiwis our approach is old fashioned and dumb....again, sorry to say it.
Pro1,978 posts
04 Dec 2013, 00:28
#9
04 Dec 2013, 00:28#9
No. Our guys are way too big to play like the AB's and do we really want to spend most our games being dominated upfront but relying on refs and shit to bring us home?
This is why we should not try play like the Kiwi's.
Having said that, I believe our issues start with our franchises. You take a look at the Kiwi teams. From the northern Blues to the southern Highlanders, they play the same brand. When you have 5 teams playing the same gameplan, to then take the guys who best execute that game plan and throw a black jersey over them is what you want. They are well versed at the gameplan, they are the best at it in their positions and now they are playing the same style they know so well with the best players available. Easy model really.
Now we have SA. We have the Lions who are not sure what they wana do. They can rock up and give you a hiding or they can (which is more often) look like they have never played together. We have the Cheetahs who are helter skelter and if it pays off, they will get a good win. The Bulls who are all forwards. The Stormers who are shit scared to attack and think just defending all game will win you top prize. The Sharks, SA's most balanced union in my opinion, that do the hard yards upfront and bring their backs in well.
Now we have 5 different gameplans and then we somehow select guys based on what they have done before (this is where Saffex argument of bringing the old boys club back rings true) then ask them to play a Bulls gameplan.
Lambie gets selected because he is on fire for the Sharks playing a running gameplan then he is asked to kick. Well, he is good at the running game. He is not our best at the kicking game. We select a mobile flank like Coetzee and Kolisi because they play well in a loose game and then we ask them to become tighter and hit up kings??
Until all SA franchises are playing the same gameplan and we select the best guys at the gameplan to represent SA with the same style of rugby, we will forever see this inconsistent shit!
Look at our team, we can basically select it before the year begins. We know Habana will be there. Did the AB's know Halai, Ranger and Piutau would be there? We know Jean will be there. Did the AB's know Saili, Crotty and Tom Taylor would be there? No, they didnt. They reward the players who perform in THAT year and are executing the game plan the best. In SA we select Bakkies based on what he has done, ditto Fourie.
Jake White said a long time ago that our unions need to work for the Boks and work with each other. Not against each other. Our stupid dutchmen (Lions), cant win a game overseas or against an overseas team, yet when its derby time, they wana lift their game and become "spoilers" to their fellow SA mates who actually have a chance of qualifying. Talk about working together. Why dont they lift against the overseas teams?
Captain40,032 posts
04 Dec 2013, 12:32
#10
04 Dec 2013, 12:32#10
Under Meyer we are on a very nice upward curve. We got the better of the abs on all but the scoreboard in 3 of the last 4 tests. Next year we will be even better.
Our game as Meyer has said if implemeted properly cannot be beaten. Nobody has the forwards we do. Our attack is improving and exciting youngsters are rising.
What the oaks fail to grasp is that the Boks were without a coach for 4 years whre we should have dominated had Jake continued. Meyer started from scratch and has righted the ship.
Our main problems are:No central contracting system - huge issue thisThe weakness of the rand means we loose players overseas (effects Super 15 and boks). What is the solution. Quota coaches and players. Could be a solution as the IRB and our own constitution doesnt tolerate this. SARFU needs to be sued.Bent refs favouring the abs. Tide is turning and across the globe journalsit are now speaking openly about this. Remove this factor andd the ab myth dies a quick death.
Boklogic please. The bulle and Stormers have played far better atacking rugby this season. Cheetahs play a very nice balanced game not helter skelter stuff. Sharks also play a nice balanced game. Lions like the Cheetahs lack a bit of depth.Man we could field three more Super 15 teams from the players we now have overseas.
The FACTS is both our top teams in the Super 15 (Stormers and Sharks) suffered horrendous injuries. Even then taken as a whole we have collectively the best results.
We should be ruling world rugby for sure and I believe we will beat the abs twice next year and hopefully that will give us the points to take the number 1 spot. The same applies to Super 15. However the huge question is can we ever reform and get our ducks in a row - eg central contracting.All things being equal the abs will be second to us - the traditioal position.
I appeal to all kbbs to accept the truth of the above gracefully and without rancour. Thanks
Our game as Meyer has said if implemeted properly cannot be beaten. Nobody has the forwards we do. Our attack is improving and exciting youngsters are rising.
What the oaks fail to grasp is that the Boks were without a coach for 4 years whre we should have dominated had Jake continued. Meyer started from scratch and has righted the ship.
Our main problems are:No central contracting system - huge issue thisThe weakness of the rand means we loose players overseas (effects Super 15 and boks). What is the solution. Quota coaches and players. Could be a solution as the IRB and our own constitution doesnt tolerate this. SARFU needs to be sued.Bent refs favouring the abs. Tide is turning and across the globe journalsit are now speaking openly about this. Remove this factor andd the ab myth dies a quick death.
Boklogic please. The bulle and Stormers have played far better atacking rugby this season. Cheetahs play a very nice balanced game not helter skelter stuff. Sharks also play a nice balanced game. Lions like the Cheetahs lack a bit of depth.Man we could field three more Super 15 teams from the players we now have overseas.
The FACTS is both our top teams in the Super 15 (Stormers and Sharks) suffered horrendous injuries. Even then taken as a whole we have collectively the best results.
We should be ruling world rugby for sure and I believe we will beat the abs twice next year and hopefully that will give us the points to take the number 1 spot. The same applies to Super 15. However the huge question is can we ever reform and get our ducks in a row - eg central contracting.All things being equal the abs will be second to us - the traditioal position.
I appeal to all kbbs to accept the truth of the above gracefully and without rancour. Thanks
Pro4,146 posts
04 Dec 2013, 12:52
#11
04 Dec 2013, 12:52#11
Central contracting is a Kiwi thing Beeno - surely you're not trying to copy us?
Pro6,663 posts
04 Dec 2013, 17:31
#12
04 Dec 2013, 17:31#12
the bench has been the ABS secret weapon this year ,it has been used as integral part of the ABS strategy and everyone on the bench is seen as an essential part of the ABS plan ,and not just someone to put on in the last few minutes if the " #1 " player for that position is tired .Truth is in each position both the man on the bench and his starting counterpart have an essential and well defined role and are considered part of a cohesive whole .Reserves even in the Army are essential to victory and many a battle is won with their judicious use ,as is unit cohesion if every man is of one mind and plays his role it enables a unit [team] to hang in a fight longer against more numerous foes who may even have more firepower .Blackskrieg !?
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