Quo vadis the so called fetchers

Waht exactly has brussouw done to be a cert for the boks. certainly it has nothing to do with the amount of balls he steals as we saw against the stormers who had no specialist fetcher.

Then again what exactly did Pocock (foolish;ystyed the best in hisposition in the world) achieve against the sharks. Zip really. Ditto the vaunted Mccaw.

I do hope the light is beginning to dawn on the likes of dave ou! I am willing to change my opinion of course provided the facts suport that. Currently we are dealing with something of a myth that looms large in some minds that harken back to past glories under different rules.

Funny too that the bulle, sharks and Stormers both do not field specialist fetchers.  Seems to me that today everyone is a fetcher or expected to be. Bissie is possibly  the best there is right now when it comes to steals?

"Bissie" and Brussow have each won 8 turn-overs, so far in the S15.

 It depends very much on how a referee runs the game.

Fetchers are professional cheats in one game and penaly give awayers in other games. The break down laws keep changing each year and the referees are so inconsistent in their application. Like if a player can enter from the side, go over the top, play the ball on the floor, ruck, etc etc. Brussouw will blow hot and cold an is not a certainty in the starting xv this year for the boks. 

The Allblacks have allways had someone like Mccaw who gets away with more than others, and it helps them get quick ball and slow their opponents attacks down.

It is the one area that the All Blacks struggle with when they get put under pressure by opponent teams who can recycle quickly an get the ball on the front foot.

Beeno, just for some info, have you seen the tackle stats lately. Brussouw might not steal as much ball, but he is a beast come defense.

Okay so you admit his stealing of the ball is no longer a factor - that at least is some improvement in assessing the situation. But you want him  in the side for his tackling then. Well allow me to say that when it comes to 80 minutes of relentless tackling you will travel the world to find another Schalk Burger - who also hits a lot harder.

No I need to know why Brussouw is an automatic choice as some like ou saffex "think". Obviousy if they really did think they may have doubts. We keep hearing the mantra we have to have a specialised fetcher and that Burger cant do it.

My question is - is that true today?

Bok loose trio is Burger, Vermueln and Elstadt. Oh what a huge pity these three cannot operate for the Stormers. Could well cost us the title.

Honetly if you are going to rate Brussouw's usefullness only on his ability to steal ball you are clearly mistaken and don't wantch the game or recognise any of his other ablilities. Apart from pilfering the odd one, he is relentless in the loose on the ground, this is where he has the advantage, he plays low and disrputs opposition ball, no reason to steal it if you can buy time for your side on the ground by bieng a nuisance. He is also one of the most intelligent loosies we have. He knows when to enter a ruck and when not. Plus his defense is probably the best of any South African loosie. Correctly assumed, we have nothing else currently playing that comes close to him. He has great upper body strengh and his lentgh is a bonus when he play to the ground. plus he also gains some field when taking the ball up due to his height the taller forwards struggle to takcke him as he has a lower point of contact.Did you see the trysaving tackle he made for the cheetahs against the stormers on the weekend? This guys is our best 6 at this stage, and I am a stormers fan willing to admit this. comeon Beeno, If you can't see it you really need to reassess the way tou look at him.

Beeno, you clearly know every little about the modern game don't you. A fetcher is not measured on the number of steals he makes, the steals are a bonus. The role of the fetcher is to get to the breakdown first, apply pressure on the opposition ball, ie slow their ball down and if they happen to turn possession over in the process then thats an added bonus.

To expect a fetcher to turn possession over every time he gets to the breakdown is unrealistic don't you think? Impossible for the player concerned and would not say much for the team in possession.

Brussouw, Pocock, Warborton, etc are vital to a side, if you know anything about rugby at all. No doubt you would want two 110kg bruisers like Schalk at flank? What a joke

Ek we ge tinto a frame of mind where we dont see things clearly.

I watch wee matfiled doing zip game after game and making practically zero lineout steals. However all one heard about all the time wa show great he was at thelineout.

Now we have Brussouw and Pockock the supreme poachers of the ball. So I ask how many do the poach actually. No they live on past reputation as big stealers of oppostion ball.  Are they really.

If you strip away the poaching myth is Brussouw at 6 more effective than Burger. A legitimate question. We want Elsdat at 7 - no question about it. Burger is no 8 but has to be in the side. SA player of the year in 2011 etc 

Crap Burger does not have to be in the side. He is a good player, but we have younger better players coming through. Coetzee for a start is far better as is CJ Stander of the Bulls. I'd play Elsatdt and Josh Strauss ahead of Schalk as well. Stander, Coetzee and Strauss are more dynamic and Elstadt is just harder

At this stage your six argument cannot include Burger. He is out, and we know he is out for the season. I would not pick Elstadt as starting 7 I'd pick him on the bench in a Daniesaurus type roll. He is strong, but not fast enough,  I would pick Marcell Coetzee at 7.  Of the current 6's playing in the S15 available for Bok selection, Brussouw is the only automatic choice, for that matter he is the only Automatic choice for any of the loosie spots. Well maybe nr 8 now is also Automatic as Vermeulen is out, which means no one else good enougn to play 8 only Spies.

So from the loosies available I would pick Brussouw, Coetzee, and Spies, with Elstadt off the bench. Thing is this might change as the S15 attrition rate at this stage is tremendious. We have alot of young loosies that are playing well But i think Coetzee is the pick of the bunch. So yes at this stage, even if Brussouw was not a fetcher with all his other abilities, I would still pick him.

Agreed Ek, I'd go with your loosetrio, but have Elstadt on the bench as a lock with Josh Strauss as my bench loosie

Hey Saf I know about your fascination with Strauss, and agree he has heart, but that is about all he has. I ust don't see what you see in him. But I won't pick Elstadt as lock cover on the bench, there are better. Juandre Kruger would actually start for me as his lineout management has been exceptional this year. I'll start him with Etsebeth. And bog Dries on the bench. Dries has been a bit disapointing in the lineouts. He is physically up to it i think bu intelectually Juandre beats him when it comes to lineout management.

Oh no here we go again! Juandre at 110 kg at lock, wee Brussouw and  back turned loose forward Spiesies and Coetzee at 106 kg. Next daveou will want to add wee chilli boy in and we are toast.

Sorry guys we want to build a dominant pack so go back to the drawing boards please. Try and pick a dominant pack assuming all players are fit. Lets see what you have got.

Juandre 110 kg, Brussouw 100 kg, Spiesies 108 kg Coetzee 106 kg. Hahhahahahahahahahaha get real please!!!!

This is my point Beeno, you can't assume all players are fit. be realistic. who is available. And all brawn and no brains not a good combination.

Who else will you pick at 8 that is available honestly, if you just want to bash it up go watch gridiron. As you cannot pick a player on his physical attributes alone.

Ek I dont get what you dont see in him. I see the same as the Kiwi commentators who rave about him each week. The guy is a grunt player and the best leader we have in SA. He gives it his all, puts in the hard yards, is physical and always carries the ball well and defends with interest, driving the opposition backwards in the tackle.

You need grunt at 7 and Schalk, Vermeulen, J.Potgieter, Elstadt and Josh are our options here. Coetzee provides this to less an extent but adds the attacking dimension to the equation that sets him apart from these guys.

Disagree on Jeandre, he started the season on fire but has faded in a big way over the past month or more. Bekker is far better and walks the side. I prefer Flips physicality to Jeandre and Flip would be my bench lock if I did not go with Elstadt as a bench lock. I am not convinced with Jeandres physicality at test level - not sure how big he is as the Bulls have him as 110kg, but I know that when he was with the Saints they had him at 115kg, which is probably more like it. Either way he lacks true grunt. Bekker at 122kg and the king of the line-outs covers all our bases 

Hear you Saf, And I agree Srauss has heart, alot of it, and a natural leader. but there are way better players with more talent out there, that is the problem with him.

The bekker Juandre issue will again come up i think, cause at this stage to me big Dries is just not managing the lineouts well. Where Juandre is showing the rugby intelligance is far better as he makes better decisions on where they should throw when, Might be matfuield's influence. As I said, Bekker is the bigger physical specimen, but Juandre is sly and a very clever player, that is why i like him. If bekker want's to be better he will need to work on that Rugby intelligence a bit as he has the Physical attributes but is a bit dissapointing in his decision making when he rruns the lineouts. Reason bull do well with a shorter linout and the Stormers are doing badly with a ver tall lineout is Juandre/Dries, So at the moment the linout management is key. If the boks are to dominate the linouts we need an savvy oke to run it.

Ek I was just asking for  a side picked on the assumption all were fit. At the moement picking an actual side is hardly possible given we dont know who will be left standing.

Having those 4 players in your pack plus an average tight head in Jannie and boy we would have no chance  at all.

What is the best we can pick?

Jannie an average tighthead, I take it you have not been watching the Sharks last 2 matches Beeno???? Get a grip man.

Ek, disagree, Bekker is a master in the line-outs, the world knows this and he makes more of an impact on the charge than Jeandre does. Much of the Stormers issues in the line-outs is their lack of options and poor throw in's. Etzebeth for some reason is not used much at line-out time, de Kock Steenkamp is average here, Elstadt a lock really is not used much either and their other line out option in Vermeulen is injured

If there were no injuries, the best pack I would pick not neceserily on form, but on experience as well:

1. Beast

2. Bismarck

3. Coenie (yes i'd pick him at tighthead, as he showed in the cc that is where he can play and he is probably one of the strongest scummagers we have plus his loosplay skills. He just needs to work on his bind, but i expect at tighthead he will doe better on the binding, just an expectation however.

4, Etzebeth

5. Dries/Juandre

6 Heindrich

7. Schalk

8 Vermeulen

bench would include:

guthro/Greyling

Chilliboy/Strauss

Bekker/Juandre

Spies/Coetzee

This si where i will go, obviously not everyone will agree, I do agree however the Jannie is and has always been average as a thighthead. But we don't have good tightheads in South Africa, our best tighthead is probably Brian Mujati, but he plays overseas firstly and we will have another illegibility row if he gets picked.

Saf that exactly is the reason i point to Big Dries. He takes the options come lineout time and does not use the other jumpers sufficiently or intelligently.

What surprised me was that on a number of Cheetah throw ins they never competed. 

That second half was a brain imploson.

Dave,  Jannie is an average tighthead - get used to it. Has he ever dominated in the tri nations? No at best the holds his own.His play outside the scrum is very ordinanry. WP and Harris are far better there. We need better.

That is a concern but the most concerning is the average cheetah linout taking Stormers ball, Big Dries should have done a better job, As they knew where the stormers where going to throw it. His decision making was poor, very poor.

Beeno you know stuff all about what constitues a good player. Jannie was great in last years Tri, our frontrow stood firm. Harris is an insult of a prop, he is piss poor and WP Nel is average at best.

The Sharks frontrow is by far the best of the SA sides - by miles.

Coenie would get drilled at tighthead, he is solid enough at loosehead but not hard enough for tighthead

Honestly Saf, coenie is probably the hardest prop in SA, and arguably the strongest. Mark my words. The moment WP nel shifts to the NH Coenie will shift to tighthead for the Cheetahs. The only reason Naka is not playing him there currently is because of his age. He will play tighhead.

No way is he the strongest prop. I rate Coenie but I want to see him dominate like Beast does. Coenie at best is solid at looshead at scrum time. If he was going to make it at tighthead, there should never be any question marks against him at loosehead and solid is well solid. I think he is too tall to ever dominate as a scrummager, but time will tell. He should work out more.

I reckon Kitshoff is stronger than Coenie and Beast is def far better at scrumming than Coenie is.

Age should have nothing to do with it - look no further than the best 2 tightheads in the game - Englands Dan Cole and Franks of NZ - both played test rugby as 22 year olds

I hear you, however Coenies issues come scrum time has nothing to do with his power. Brock dirtied his pants against him this weekend, he is tremediously strong. His issues come from his bind, he takes to long before he binds onto the opposition player, go and look at the hits again. Any player that scrums agaist coenie can't take the hit, I have not seen one that can and the moment he makes his bind he is good. he is as hard as nails that oke. Kitshoff is strong but lacks explosivity on the hit. Coenie will play tighthead for the cheetahs when WP nel leaves and within 2 years for the boks. mark my words.

There is perhaps only one kid that will possibly take that away from him, and he will play for province sometime soon, depending on where he dicides to settle, and that is Oliver Kebble. Watch him playing for the baby boks if he gets a chance. He however i think still has not decided what side to play much like CJ used to be. a 128 kg 19 year old and strong as an ox.

Dave please try and be even a tad consistent. Juandre is too small at 110 kg but matfield at 107 kg is not?

(Daveou in a big predicament here.  Watch him dig the hole deeper!)

Sorry the search has to be on for a better tighthead. Jannie benefits from scrummaging with Bissie and Beast but is the weak link in the sharks front row. What decent scrumming team did jannie dominate?

The power comes from beasts side if at all. Dave you need to contextualise the matter!

Beeno its a bit difficult debating with a thick prick.......but for a comic element I'll continue. Get this into your head, no good props dominate other good props......Jannie is as solid as any other international tighthead out there and he has confirmed that in the last 2 years. The only time he and the Sharks or Boks have struggled was when Smit played prop - get it?

Only a complete idiot would tell us that the bog ordinary Brok knock kneed Harris was a better than Jannie, get a grip Beeno or better still a brain.

Matfield was never 107kg's, might have been as a 20 year old but was 115kg by the time he retired. Jeandre is the same size. But I am not debating the size of Matfield for you are too stupid to grasp reality!

Ek, there is no excuse for getting the bind wrong, if Coenie was that good and powerful, he would never slip his bind. Kitshoff is a better scrummager at this stage and the Stormers conditioning coach has gone on record saying the kid is a freak in the strength stakes.

Kebble needs to play 3 if he wants to make it as a Bok.

Frans Malherbe is our best bet at 3 moving forward. Until I see an extended run of Coenie at 3, my money is on Malherbe. I saw the Coenie experiment at 3 last season and it was not pretty, he got his arse kicked

Well the Jury will stay out and I really am waiting for Kebble to get his chance. But at this stage i like Coenie. Btw you understood me wrong he is not getting his bind wrong, he hits so bloody hard that he doesn't get it at all, that is why he get's blown up. With him it is just a point of his discipline that he needs to get right, concentrate on the whole hit resutling grab of opposition included and not just to let the oppisition's knees crumble on the hit. Casue this weekend he hit so hard that brock's knees crumbled.

Sorry not convinced about the Coenie big hit, yet to be that impressed with his scrumming - if I was honest, I'd say I am a little disappointed with that aspect of his game. I think some conditioning would sort him out. He needs to go workout

Saf, for your sake i hope he didn't hear that :) You know what he does in clubs in his spare time.

Coenie is potentially very good. But here I would agree with Dave - he doesn' t scrum his weight of 127 kg. He needs to work hard on his strength.

Outside the scrum he is excellent. I can only hope he makes it at tighthead as we need a top young tighthead. 

He can come find me in silly Suffolk anytime!!

hehe :)