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FORUM / RUGBY /  Rating of Springboks iro Round 1

Rating of Springboks iro Round 1

Started by clevermike43 REPLIES1,648 VIEWS· 16 Feb 2014, 08:44
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 08:44
#1
16 Feb 2014, 08:44#1

I have looked at the game yesterday and mu rating of the Springboks (past and present) based on yesterdays performance is as follows:-


Willie le Roux          -    7,5/10

Bjorn Basson           -      2/10   *

Lwazi Mvovo            -      7/10

JJ Engelbrecht         -     5,5/10

Francois Steyn        -    7,5/10

Jan Serfontin          -    5,5/10

Patrick Lambie        -       8/10

Francois Hougaard  -       2/10   *

Pierre Spies            -       5/10

Willem Alberts         -      2/10   *

Marcell Coetzee       -    7,5/10

Flip van der Merwe  -    6,5/10

Pieter-Steph du Toit -   6,5/10

Jannie du Plessis      -      5/10

Tendai Mtawarire     -      7/10          

 Adriaan Strauss       -   7.5/10 

Bismarck du Plessis  -     7/10


*  Totally  unacceptable performances


Good performers


Willie le Roux, Lwazi Mvovo, Francois Steyn,  Patrick Lambie,  Marcell Coetzee,  

Flip van der Merwe, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Tendai Mtawarire, Adriaan Strauss, Bismarck du Plessis


Average Performers - improvement URGENTLY NEEDED


JJ Engelbrecht, Jan Serfontein, Pierre Spies, Jannie du Plesssis


Disgraceful Performers - worse than poor


Bjorn Basson,  Francois Hougaard, Willem Alberts


Comments - with supporting evidence - to change the above ratings will be appreciated.  


I am going to keep the above scorecard going through the series - averaging out the points per game allocated.




sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
16 Feb 2014, 08:50
#2
16 Feb 2014, 08:50#2
 generally accurate performance. The Bulls forwards came to the party, but their inside backs were shit
BA
black adderClub Pro196 posts
16 Feb 2014, 09:19
#3
16 Feb 2014, 09:19#3

 What a disappointment. Had picked the Cheetahs to win and the Bulls for an upset.

Last time i'll back those sides this season.  

Especially now that Goosens gone, the Cheetahs are screwed aren't they?  and Le Roux can't win it by himself.

 Lets see how Beeanobs Stormers go next week otherwise i'll have to back the Sharks as SAfricas only hope of competing with NZ and Aus teams this year.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Feb 2014, 09:21
#4
16 Feb 2014, 09:21#4
Clevermike: on Willie Le Roux's performance. Overall I can't disagree with you rating him as having a "good performance". 
However, it was mercurial in the full sense of the word, some spectacular & creative plays & then some real screw-ups. He has the talent but he will have to reduce his errors. 
This will be a challenge because how can you reduce errors without killing his creativity? In NZ rugby they allow players to "express themselves" but they also tell them to cut down on the number of 50/50 plays. We will see how he does as the season progresses.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 09:29
#5
16 Feb 2014, 09:29#5

Sharkbok


We will see next week what team changes are made.   I would say all of Basson, Hougaard and Alberts may be omitted from the starting line-ups - which will le ave their ratings unchanged - since I did not and will not rate bench players now and in future. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Feb 2014, 11:37
#6
16 Feb 2014, 11:37#6
 Right now I think Jaque is a far better bet than Alberts at 7. If you want a really big 7.
Hougaard  was a big reason the bulle lost. Hougaard needs to leave the bulle. Wonder if the Cheetahs could sort him out.Spies must be dropped. Use him as an impact palyer with a liscence to play wide. The bulle pack was impressive and really could have won this game but for some errors caused by soapy ball. Bulle will be very hard to beat at home.




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 12:31
#7
16 Feb 2014, 12:31#7

 Beeno


Albeerts was a slow tarter last year in Super 15 and remained a slow player throughout the series.  What makes you think he would be any different this year?   He obviously think his reputation would help him retain his place in the Springbok team.


Hougaard really was a joke in bad taste.  His service was shit poor at the best of times and like the case was with Jordaan playing the fool with Engelbrecht, Reinach played the fool with him.   Something tells me he is not a scrummie anymore - but will Saffex ever realise and admit it.


I would also play Pollard ahead of Fouche at 10.          

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Feb 2014, 12:38
#8
16 Feb 2014, 12:38#8
 Jordaan was very good. Play JJ at wing. It justa question of sorting the players out and LOOKING to the FUTURE. Habana wont last forever and neither will Jean. If you exclude these two who is the Bok backline.
Reinach, Lambie, Frans, Jordaan, JJ  another player Willie? Who would the other wing be.JJ is talented and well suited to the wing.These four sharks players will learn to play together as a unit. 
A fantastic crop of players is emmerging. Can Meyer put it together. He will get there in my opinion. 





ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
16 Feb 2014, 13:44
#9
16 Feb 2014, 13:44#9
@Blackadder: Goosen is not integral to the Cheetah attack. They've done it before him and without him.

@JustWin: "Don't worry about those errors. You see, when Le Roux makes errors, they are good errors. So if, say, Kirchner makes no errors then he is mediocre; but Le Roux making errors is a sign of genius and we just can't blunt that natural talent."

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself . Some words from the rugby community on his errors of last year - not mine !
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 13:53
#10
16 Feb 2014, 13:53#10

Sun Tzu


I really am disappointed  - Mozart made a desperate effort to defend the performance of Willem Alberts (his reasoning was totally off the mark though)  - but you have not done the sane.   Do you in fact agree he had a disgustingly poor game?  

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:01
#11
16 Feb 2014, 14:01#11
Sun Tzu: Le Roux is a pleasure to watch & a much needed spark in the Bock back line. 
I am trying to understand the "logic" of errors, lol So the more errors Le Roux makes the better it is? Now that's something kiwis can support, but only when applied to the SA  players
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:01
#12
16 Feb 2014, 14:01#12
willie le roux had two good try assists, but was horrible everywhere else. a real case of 1 step forward and two steps back.

willie tried to do too much, and while the saffa commentators were applauding him for trying, that type of error rate would have seen him get heavily criticized in NZ.

sp marais was far better than willie, did his job and didnt put his team under unnecessary pressure.

willie - 4.5/10
sp marais - 7.5/10
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:07
#13
16 Feb 2014, 14:07#13
 Le Roux is an exceptionally accurate player, on the wing that is. He just isn't a fullback. It has never worked under any meaningful level of pressure! Alas, we must learn the hard way.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:07
#14
16 Feb 2014, 14:07#14

Sasue 


I di not try and rate the non-Springboks - s0 I did not allocate a rating to Marais   

I like him a lot and have a high opinion of him. I disagree with you about le Roux  - he tried to so too much though and that did not work out.


  

AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:26
#15
16 Feb 2014, 14:26#15
 I wouldn't extract too many conclusions from yesterday's 2 matches. They were both really poor and with tones of mistakes which is understandable in part for being the first match of the year for the teams involved.
The Cheetahs were beaten at home by a Lions team (!!!) whose only attacking threat came from Boshoff's boot.
The Sharks were dominated during the main part of the match by a Bulls team unable to do anything in attack and whose defense was horrendous and allowed 3 tries (the other one was thanks to the TMO in a crucial moment).
The only players deserving a mention IMO were Coetzee and Jordan.
Le Roux, as JW said, had some good things, his 2 try assists were the bests of the match, accompanied by many basic mistakes.
Mvovo made the break and assisted the first try but then dissapeared untill the lasts minutes of the game.
Lambie was lucky to note his try in the 81 minute, nothing special appart from that. Steyn was average as they were Flip van der Merwe, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Tendai Mtawarire, Adriaan Strauss and Bismarck du Plessis. But as I said that was just the first match...

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Feb 2014, 14:31
#16
16 Feb 2014, 14:31#16
ABasquefan: congrats on round 1 of the Fantasy rugby mate!  Well done.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Feb 2014, 15:17
#17
16 Feb 2014, 15:17#17
Mike you are plagiarist as well as being a liar. It's rather disgusting
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 15:44
#18
16 Feb 2014, 15:44#18

Mozart


This is amazing - what did I copy from whom - I never saw any other ratings by anyone - the above us my own version.  


Secondly - what did I lie about?  If it about your comments on Alberts - allow me to quote it for you:-


"Solid stuff from Alberts in a tight contest. Unfortunately some pundits don't see the power he brings in the close exchanges, unlike Coetzee who was tossed like a toothpick by Hougaard."


What I did say subsequently was that there was nothing solid and nothing else as well - that resembles anything near a satisfactory performance at all. 


If you disagree with the ratings - please comment and supply supporting evidence to change the above ratings - it will  be sincerely appreciated.   Let me add vague descriptions like "the power he brings in the close exchanges" are suppositions unless supported by evidence of such exchanges.   I could not find one such exchange where the description was in evidence.  So please - if I missed out on them clarify the issue by examples involving Alberts - not anyone else..    


   



 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:06
#19
16 Feb 2014, 16:06#19

Oh sure Clever, 7 hours after I post that I will be tracking the Newbies game by game, you announce that you will be tracking the Springboks game by game. When you steal ideas it's usual to acknowledge it. Or, let  me guess, it's just a coincidence.

 

My version:

 

February 15, 2014, 23:14:28

I am adding a    "+   -    0" rating for each prospective newbie each week they play. This simply indicates if they have a positive indication for test rugby, a neutral indication or a negative indication. Note this doesn't necessarily correspond were their performance in the game....it is a test indicator. For example I thought Goosen had an average game, but his fragility came through as a negative indicator. At the end of the S15 we will add add up the scores.

 

 

Clever's version posted Feb 16 at 6.45:

 

"I am going to keep the above scorecard going through the series - averaging out the points per game allocated."

 

 

Thus Plagiarism

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:31
#20
16 Feb 2014, 16:31#20
@mozter,

a tad bit dramatic dont u think???

if i was to hit up every saffa here for plagiarising me, i would never get to blog about anything else.

in my case, i just have to accept my celebrity status so when i see ur countrymen copying certain ideas and styles of mine, i just embrace it, for its always a vast improvement to their usual kakness,
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:37
#21
16 Feb 2014, 16:37#21
@mikey,

"I disagree with you about le Roux  - he tried to so too much though and that did not work out."
unless there was a mistake with ur sentence, u actually agree with me.

i think he tried to do too much too, and as u so politely put it, it didnt work out, or in other words, he was shit.

u rating was way too generous, but to each their own.

i agree with suntzu, willie le roux is a much better winger than fullback, in fact IMO willie has surpassed jp as the Boks No1 winger with habana.

funny that neither jp, habana and especially le roux would never make the All Blacks though, but one nations high standards is another nations definition of mediocrity, (insert rim shot and que smug smile),
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:44
#22
16 Feb 2014, 16:44#22

 Mozart


Please - it has nothing to do with your scorecard on newbies.   I give ratings in numbers out of 10 per game.   In Round 2 I add the rating for that fame and divide the result by 2, etc   


I never even looked at your item properly and it is not remotely similar what you are doing.   Even if it was in some ways similar - it has nothing to do with newbes and everything to do with existing  and past Springboks.   By your comments are you in fact implying that I am not allowed to rate the players - because you have a system applicable to newbies?  


In the end - you are not giving an actual scorecard on players in any event - so the plagiarism argument is really on thin ice.


I assume you have no real comments to make on the points actually allocated to the various players.    If you feel the points are wrong - please comment.   I am open to suggestions.

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:50
#23
16 Feb 2014, 16:50#23

Watched both games and have the following comments:

 

1. Springboks at this stage do not have a fly-half. Lions fly-half was the best on offer.

2. A young good player will always show up an ex (good) old player. Victor is a has been.

3. Sharks scrum-half had a great game, outclassed Hougie completely.

4. Sharks #8 (Kankan) completely earned his place as first choice for the #8 jersey for the Sharks. Well read and selected by White....class.

5. Liked the Cheet's wing ...Raymond Rhule and once again Willie showed his class at 15.

 

Overhaul it is early season but some players appear to have gone backwards.

 

Generally liked the effort put up by the younger players from all four teams.

Hope they stay free of injury and gain experience during S15 and mature to great SPRINGBOKS.

 

At last there is hope ...........I hope.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Feb 2014, 16:51
#24
16 Feb 2014, 16:51#24
Moz; you two are incorrigible, lol
There are very few ideas that are solely attributable to one person. Even the quote:
"Imitation is the sincerest of flattery" attributed to Charles Caleb Colton in 1820
had its origin about 100 years before Colton documented it*. 
*Source of information is available on request - copyright infringement legal actions will be treated with the seriousness they deserve.
KE
KeaganzulusmithClub Pro175 posts
16 Feb 2014, 17:00
#25
16 Feb 2014, 17:00#25
Both games were won and lost on errors, the sharks game they out classed the bulls into making mistake the 2nd try a great example and the 3rd the same, both came from pressure and errors the first the awful pass, the 3rd spies loosing the ball to a 9!
@arthur personally i think pat lambie looked the best of the lot even though the lions did have a great game lambie made few errors and kicked well just needed some time to get that radar working just cobwebs in the first game.
I hope hougie can go back to the 9 he was of yester years but i think thats a big shout the messing about on the wing messed his game as well as not a very well rounded game for a nine he is still very much a sniper 9 not a kicker but is playing as a kicker to try and get into the boks side if he played his game i think he may get better, but at the moment its awful! 
I agree with the ratings mike i forgot basson  was even on the park only thing he did the whole game was winning a high ball. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 17:26
#26
16 Feb 2014, 17:26#26

Keagan


I always hope for improvement in player performances - but that is not always forthcoming.   Insofar as Alberts is concerned - there is a problem,  It may be one of two things:-


*  He does not regard it necessary to pot in hard work - because he thinks he is assured of selection to the Sharks and Springbok teams abd actual performances in games is not of consequence.


*  The tempo of the Super 15 games may be too fast and does not fit his style of play.   This is why he is in Super 15 more like an extra lock and his loosie performances become questionable.   The situation was rather similar last year - when he actually was below par.   For instance he played in 7 matches with a tackle count of 6 tackles per match  and a missed tackle ratio of nearly 18%,   In Super 15 the average tackle rate of acceptable loosies are  circa 8 to 9 and good loosies acerage above 10 tackles per march.    A missed tackle ratio of between 5 and 8% is good - between  9 and 12% acceptable,   If you analyse his performances last year carefully - the rest of his performances was on par. 


There is a chance of improvement - but I am not sure whether he would mentally feel it necessary to improve.


As to Hougaard - U admired him when he came onto the scene.    Something happened in 2012 and he went sour.   There could have been a coaching problem and I suggested that he gets an intensive coaching programme with a guy like Divan Serfontein.   I for instance think that there is something amiss in his "rugby" thinking 0 in other words it is all in his mind.  It cannot be physical - he has the ideal physique  for a scrummie.     U think je needs specialist coaching and advice and things would improve.

     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Feb 2014, 18:03
#27
16 Feb 2014, 18:03#27
Sasue, Clever's plagiarism is not a big deal. It just tells you a bit about the man. But he scarcely  has a pristine reputation, having recently been horribly exposed on his de Jongh lies.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 Feb 2014, 18:04
#28
16 Feb 2014, 18:04#28
@mikey,

alberts underperformed yesterday no doubt, but if jordaan can improve his game from the big ordinary nothing it was when he first debuted into the spXV, then maybe alberts can also improve???

food for thought,
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
16 Feb 2014, 18:07
#29
16 Feb 2014, 18:07#29
 @just win,
thanks mate...
but is too soon yet, the points of the first match btwin Cheetahs and Lions are still to be all counted. Things like tackles made, a very important source of points, have not been added up yet and could change the table.
These 2 match-rounds are very tricky, they depend a lot on luck. And as well as last year (with the same first 2 match-round) i was very lucky and finished btwin the 100 firsts (around the 50th I try to remember), this year I am around the 1400 position. But the goal because of the "trickyness" of the round was not to loose more than 100 points with the first classified which for the moment has been accomplished.
But thanks anyway....
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Feb 2014, 18:24
#30
16 Feb 2014, 18:24#30
Alberts was the main counter to the Bulls mauling tactics. He was forced to play really tight, because Coetzee and Kankan are hardly power players...and the Bools second and back rows were packed with power. That said he will have better games, but he was nowhere near Clever's 2 rating. Poor Oom is not an honest grader.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Feb 2014, 20:32
#31
16 Feb 2014, 20:32#31
So DoMike what else did you expect from JJ having received the ball all of 3 times, the first of which he stepped Frans with ease........try catch a wake up when you attempt these pathetic ratings
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 20:33
#32
16 Feb 2014, 20:33#32

Mozart


And you are an honest grader?   What bullshit.   I looked at the performance of Alberts and found that he did the absolute minimum.   How many times were "Alberts ...  the main counter to the Bulls mauling tactics"?   I counted twice - once where he brought the maul down and was penalized and one other time - during mauls Alberts did not join the mauls on at least two other occasions or was pushed out of the way early.   


How did I arrive at the score of 2?  


     Five ball carries    -  5 points

     Four tackles made -  4 points   - 9 points

     Minus

     Two  penalties    -     4 points

     Two missed tackles - 4 points    - 8 points

     Plus

     Tight play assists    -  1 Point     - 1 point


I was not honest in allocation.   How about Foxsport who gave him minus 7 points for his performance?  


He had to play really tight - so that allows him to do zilch in line outs?  Boy - o -boy - another explanation similar to the De Jongh's missed tackle ratio of 23,3% - he missed the tackles because he is such a strong tackler.  Alberts did squat of value - because he was so involved in tight play.


Sure - he will do better in other games - he certainly cannot do worse.   His Super 15 performances last year were poor - though I must admit - better than he achieved yesterday.    Problem is Alberts have a low work rate - and that never improves  ever,


I would be interested to see how he performs against the Hurricanes - they have a weaker tight 5 and he will not be required to be the "main counter to the opposition's mauling tactics"    




 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 20:51
#33
16 Feb 2014, 20:51#33

Sasue


Your memory must have slipped badly, Jprdaan actually was very good for the Sharks in 2012 - he was one of the most promising youngsters in that year - but he slipped back badly last year.   I can give you numerous examples of 2012 performances of top value.  Yeterday was back to the standard he set in 2012 - so lets see how he profresses against the Hurricanes next Round


Alberts never was a satisfactory Super 15 performer - I think the game is too fast for him.  He always was a low work rate player - and that would be difficult to change.  I am not sure whether White would pit up with that for too long.   Repetition of yesterdays performance will not be tolerated by White - I am sure.


  


   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Feb 2014, 21:35
#34
16 Feb 2014, 21:35#34
Look if I want fantasy points I'll ask for fantasy points. No rugby journalist would give Alberts  a 2 for that performance ....not one.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 21:42
#35
16 Feb 2014, 21:42#35

Mozart


I gave a full explanation of how I calculated the points.   I just mentioned the fantasy points as an aside - to further support my argument that Alberts produced a BS performance.   If you think he was any better - good luck to you - but I am sure he was not.   

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 21:56
#36
16 Feb 2014, 21:56#36

 Saffex


Engelvrecht was average and the ratings indicated as such.  He did get the ball five times - passed it once and made no real progress with ball in hand.   Did not beat a single defender and was tackled every tine by the first defender he came up against.  he tried to beat Steyn by running around him - but in the process got tackled by Hordaan - so no defenders beaten,


On what else would you base a rating? 


Elsewhere I said the Bulls half backs were pathetic and you can understand that their centers did not function properly - but one cannot give points based on maybe and ifs and buts.  


How would you rate Engelbrecht and Serfontein on their performances yesterday?   I asked for comments and suggestions - but no one else gave any - mostly agreeing with my allocation - bar for Mozart iro Alberts and now you on Engelbrecht.     Positive and motivated comments will help - not the airy fairy excuses of Mozart.


            

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Feb 2014, 22:22
#37
16 Feb 2014, 22:22#37
What utter rubbish, he beat Frans the first time he got the ball......that is a defender beaten........he then took contact......the other two times he got the ball, it was in traffic, he took contact and recycled the ball, he also passed once and then spilt it right at the end in contact after regaining an initial fumble.

You cannot rate a player as a 5, who gets no opportunities to attack and defends well.......saying he has a 5 would tell me he had a bad game.......what utter rubbish.......you clowns seems to think that some players need to some how conjure up some magic and have good ball passed their way every game.......get a bloody grip.

I am not saying JJ was a shining star, I am saying he got stuff all opportunities and did what he could in the circumstances......he spent much of the game without the ball  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Feb 2014, 22:29
#38
16 Feb 2014, 22:29#38

 Saffex


But he has to get a rating - he did well on defence - so what rating would you give him?   Maybe 5,5/10?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Feb 2014, 22:33
#39
16 Feb 2014, 22:33#39
Well given he had no opportunity on attack, not his fault his forwards were cocking up and that his 10 was so shit. He did his work on defence.............so a 6 would be about par........not that I think a rating is that relevant.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Feb 2014, 01:18
#40
17 Feb 2014, 01:18#40

OK


I will make him a 6  - based on his solid defence. 

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