FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  Refs.

Refs.

Started by Arthur John25 REPLIES842 VIEWS· 09 Mar 2014, 19:53
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
09 Mar 2014, 19:53
#1
09 Mar 2014, 19:53#1

Guys am I alone with finding that the refs such as the guys presently handling games appear to be out of their league.


That holds for the SA refs as well (I will exclude Joubert) but the rest appear to be below average at best.

RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
09 Mar 2014, 21:34
#2
09 Mar 2014, 21:34#2
Out of their league you say? The current S15 refs are in the very highest league there is when it comes to rugby refs so if they're out of that "league", who is in it? Do you know of refs who are better than the current S15 panel? Huh? Can you name some the refs who are in this league you speak of? If the current lot are below average then, by definition, there must be quite a few refs who are above the average, not so? 
Please name some of these above average refs who are so much better than the current panel of S15 refs. Just put up a few names . . . because if you can't then you're just another snivelling ref-basher who thinks refs (and football refs, cricket umpires, tennis umpires etc.) should be some kind of infallible supermen with eyes in the back of their heads and who don't make mistakes while you sit on your arse on your couch drinking beer, watching the game on TV and trying to pretend you know more than the professionals who are actually qualified to handle a S15 rugby match. I bet you don't know even 10% of the laws that a competent ref would be expected to know.
Come on then, let's hear who these above average refs are. You do understand the concept of average, don't you . . . and you did call the S15 refs below average, right? Yes? Good, then let's hear these names. Tell us who should be reffing these games, smartypants.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Mar 2014, 21:59
#3
09 Mar 2014, 21:59#3
Put a cork in it RooiAAS 
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
10 Mar 2014, 00:34
#4
10 Mar 2014, 00:34#4
 Rooinek please add more water to whatever you are drinking and do not type when you are under the influence.
Above average: Joubert Below average: THE REST.
Also I wish to add that I do not sit on my Rooinek and drink beer in front of the TV and find fault with all in sundry.
Most of the commentators in each game point out the errors and also remember the ref has two guys assisting him on the sidelines plus he has replay options.
Now once you sober up please re-read my original blog and please, please add more water to that illegal stuff you are drinking. You are damaging your kidneys which will soon be in the same state as your brain.
Have a great day and remember get a grip on yourself.
Cheers!!!!!
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
10 Mar 2014, 00:34
#5
10 Mar 2014, 00:34#5
 Rooinek please add more water to whatever you are drinking and do not type when you are under the influence.
Above average: Joubert Below average: THE REST.
Also I wish to add that I do not sit on my Rooinek and drink beer in front of the TV and find fault with all in sundry.
Most of the commentators in each game point out the errors and also remember the ref has two guys assisting him on the sidelines plus he has replay options.
Now once you sober up please re-read my original blog and please, please add more water to that illegal stuff you are drinking. You are damaging your kidneys which will soon be in the same state as your brain.
Have a great day and remember get a grip on yourself.
Cheers!!!!!
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
10 Mar 2014, 00:34
#6
10 Mar 2014, 00:34#6
 Rooinek please add more water to whatever you are drinking and do not type when you are under the influence.
Above average: Joubert Below average: THE REST.
Also I wish to add that I do not sit on my Rooinek and drink beer in front of the TV and find fault with all in sundry.
Most of the commentators in each game point out the errors and also remember the ref has two guys assisting him on the sidelines plus he has replay options.
Now once you sober up please re-read my original blog and please, please add more water to that illegal stuff you are drinking. You are damaging your kidneys which will soon be in the same state as your brain.
Have a great day and remember get a grip on yourself.
Cheers!!!!!
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
10 Mar 2014, 00:34
#7
10 Mar 2014, 00:34#7
 Rooinek please add more water to whatever you are drinking and do not type when you are under the influence.
Above average: Joubert Below average: THE REST.
Also I wish to add that I do not sit on my Rooinek and drink beer in front of the TV and find fault with all in sundry.
Most of the commentators in each game point out the errors and also remember the ref has two guys assisting him on the sidelines plus he has replay options.
Now once you sober up please re-read my original blog and please, please add more water to that illegal stuff you are drinking. You are damaging your kidneys which will soon be in the same state as your brain.
Have a great day and remember get a grip on yourself.
Cheers!!!!!
FI
FirstFive
Rookie75 posts
FI
FirstFiveRookie75 posts
10 Mar 2014, 01:44
#8
10 Mar 2014, 01:44#8

 Well I reckon it's the most thankless job around. You wouldn't catch me in the middle. From reffing the odd under 11 club game, I can begin to understand, but the pressure that guys at this level are under is immense.

 

Refs are human as well - all players make mistakes in a game, so you can't expect the Refs to be perfect. It's just that some Refs make more mistakes than others.

 

And then it depends on when the wrong decision is made. No-one cares about the penalty wrongly given in the first minute, but if the same mistake is made in the 80th, which affects points, then the Ref cops a fair share of the blame for losing.

 

Does anyone remember Kaplan reffing a Bledisloe Cup some years ago when he allowed the game to go into 8 or 10 minutes overtime? Then blew a penalty for Oz which Eales slotted to win the game. Kaplan had to be escorted off the field by some AB players.

KE
Keaganzulusmith
Club Pro175 posts
KE
KeaganzulusmithClub Pro175 posts
10 Mar 2014, 02:00
#9
10 Mar 2014, 02:00#9
 Best ref out there at the moment in time who i would love to ref more super rugby games in nigel owens! mans a hero! that is all! 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Mar 2014, 02:30
#10
10 Mar 2014, 02:30#10
They are individuals....some are consistent, others like that little martinet who reffed the Sharks game are thrilled by the power play. All of them are paid.
In terms of quality  standards they are some way behind NFL and particularly NHL refs. But the ref association is most culpable.....we have completely inconsistent application of scrums, scrum put ins, the breakdown and the forward pass. 
For a recent example look at the penalty given to the Scottish scrum at minute 74 by the NZ ref. The  ball is fed directly under Scottish feet and in any case the whole Scottish front row is on its knees ....but France is penalized. Contrast this with the number of skew feed penalties assessed against the Blues. 
Its a mess and not necessary in a professional sport.
FI
FirstFive
Rookie75 posts
FI
FirstFiveRookie75 posts
10 Mar 2014, 03:44
#11
10 Mar 2014, 03:44#11

 Need to consider the laws as well Moz. In NHL you have 12 players, 2 refs and relatively simple rules (maybe I'm wrong lol) as opposed to 30 players, 1 ref and a million laws. I exclude the TJs because on average they are 30m away from the action.

 

Didn't they trial 2 refs at one stage?

MO
moolaa
Pro2,380 posts
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
10 Mar 2014, 04:18
#12
10 Mar 2014, 04:18#12

 First Five, I was at that game, the first test match at the Caketin in Wellington.

Playing way overtime was bad enough but not the worst thing Kaplan did that day.

The ABs were leading by a point I think (23-21 from memory) in the dying seconds and got a relieving penalty. They kicked it out deep into the OZ 22 and Kaplan was asked how much time was left. He said "next time out".

The ABs duly lost the lineout on their own throw and the Aussies booted it way down the field. Tana Umaga made no attempt to stop the ball and shepherded it in to touch on the AB's 22.

To his and all the AB's horror, Kaplan said "play the lineout". You can guess what happened from there....we lost it again and Kaplan pinged Craig Dowd (I think) for hands in the ruck and the rest is history!!

Took a while to get over that one.....

 

FI
FirstFive
Rookie75 posts
FI
FirstFiveRookie75 posts
10 Mar 2014, 05:10
#13
10 Mar 2014, 05:10#13
 Moolaa I thinks that's where the ban on glass beer bottles started lol. Kaplan couldn't get off the field.
FO
ForeverArizona
Club Pro580 posts
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
10 Mar 2014, 05:29
#14
10 Mar 2014, 05:29#14
My post has been deleted and my account has been suspended.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Mar 2014, 05:44
#15
10 Mar 2014, 05:44#15
Another total mess is the advantage law. Refs play an indeterminate advantage....at some point, supposedly advantage is over. But the application is an absolute crap shoot.  
The laws could be changed to say if immediate advantage,  eg retention of he ball, occurs....advantage is over. And rather than all the posturing with drop kicks and cross kicks.... teams should have to elect the goal kick immediately, through some kind of signal, like the mark. Failing that if they retain possession, advantage should be done. That will put this  whole thing on a consistent basis.

But until we get sensible rules, if ever, the refs have to set and police guidelines to make advantage a consistent ruling....rather than an opportunity to reward a team with multiple scoring chances....or not, as the case may be.
RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
10 Mar 2014, 08:19
#16
10 Mar 2014, 08:19#16
AJ, firstly, the irony of you accusing me of being drunk when I posted while you hammer away at the submit button and post the same comment 4 times did not escape me. Thanks for the laugh!

Secondly, based on your answer, do I understand you correctly that your solution to the referring problems is to make Craig Joubert ref all the S15 games? That would appear to be your solution.

If you don't like the situation then at least put up an alternative. Don't just bleat for the sake of it. The refs we have are the best in the business and if they're not good enough for your impossibly high standards then I suggest you find another sport to watch.
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
10 Mar 2014, 16:28
#17
10 Mar 2014, 16:28#17
 Just because you think that the present panel of refs are the best does not mean that they are.
Remember we had that top best ref from NZ (Lawrence) in the last WC and you know what happened.
Some of the calls made are wrong and also their appears to be no standard when the advantage rule is or should be applied.
Sure we are all human and make mistakes but when you are in the spotlight and your errors can cost a team the game then it is not acceptable. 
These guys are professional refs and are paid to make the right calls with their assistants and available technology......so their is no excuse.
On the Joubert issue......yes, it would be great to have all the refs at his standard.Thanks.
RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
10 Mar 2014, 17:55
#18
10 Mar 2014, 17:55#18
"Just because you think that the present panel of refs are the best does not mean that they are."
Well for the 3rd (or is it the 4th) time, please put up some names so that SANZAR can get hold of these refs who are so much better than their elite panel and draft them in.
Yes, I do remember exactly what happened in the last RWC regarding Bryce Lawrence. I remember a very large percentage of South African rugby "supporters" embarrassing themselves and the entire country by launching a hate campaign on social media against Bryce Lawrence because the blubbering little crybabies couldn't accept defeat and blamed the ref for the Springbok defeat instead of blaming the pathetic game plan that involved Skulk Burger and Victor Matfield taking on the roles of first receiver every time we won the ball and screwing up just about every backline move.
It was an absolutely disgraceful incident that saw Bryce Lawrence receiving death threats from literally thousands of mindless South African dickheads and the whole sad fiasco resulted in a very competent referee and thoroughly decent person having to give up his job.
I bet you're the type who remembers it somewhat differently . . .
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 Mar 2014, 19:21
#19
10 Mar 2014, 19:21#19
rooitwit your support of bent refs is legendary - best you s kip this topic.Thanks
OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Mar 2014, 19:52
#20
10 Mar 2014, 19:52#20
If you had to sit through some youth, high school or varsity games your perception of average would certainly change.

Rugby is an extremely difficult game to ref to begin with, especially the breakdown. The  size and speed of the players just makes things more difficult. As TV spectators, our elevated viewing perspective is in many ways superior to what the refs have on the ground. With the additional input that is now coming from the sidelines and the always improving use of replay there is little that goes unnoticed - particularly foul play. In general, I would say their consistency and communication is better now than ever across the board.

Refs will make mistakes and have off days just like everyone else and sometimes make obviously wrong calls, but that is as much part of the game as anything else. In many ways it adds to the interest and drama.

If there was one thing that I think would improve the quality of reffing it would be more former players being involved as refs as they can instinctively know when things are amiss and the speed of the game is not an issue but good luck convincing them they should undergo the criticism that comes with the job.

BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 Mar 2014, 19:55
#21
10 Mar 2014, 19:55#21
 Seems also the Lions were robbed. Sharks might have lost this game.
Ex Sport 24 
Cape Town - A few Lions players were unhappy with the officials following their 37-23 Super Rugby loss to the Sharks in Durban on Saturday.

According to the Beeld website, some Lions players felt the aura surrounding Sharks director of rugby, Jake White, intimidated the officials.

The players spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of being punished, but were clearly unhappy after a few decisions went against their side.

The Lions were upset after centre Stefan Watermeyer was penalised after he and Sharks wing Lwazi Mvovo jumped for an up-and-under - and Waterwayer was penalised after Mvovo was sent tumbling.

Referee Jaco Peyper awarded a penalty to the hosts for dangerous play on the part of Watermeyer who at no stage took his eyes off the ball as replays - which Peyper viewed - were shown on the 'big screen'.

Commentator and former Springbok skipper Bob Skinstad called the decision "rubbish" live on air, after Peyper explained to a perplexed Lions captain Warren Whiteley that because Mvovo had "jumped first", Watermeyer had a duty to ensure he took due care and that he, essentially, couldn't contest the ball.

The incident took place at a crucial stage of the match as the Lions had narrowed the deficit to 30-23 and the Sharks were down to 14 men.

In another incident, Watermeyer was chasing a kick and looked likely to score, but was held back by a Sharks player, according to coach Johan Ackermann.

“I only want them to make more use of the referral system. It is there, why not use it more? It is very frustrating.

“It’s no use apologising for officials’ mistakes on the Monday after a video analysis is done. By then it’s too late and the damage is done.

“It’s not a nice feeling going home with nothing. I feel we deserved something (a bonus point) out of this game,” said Ackermann
RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
10 Mar 2014, 20:02
#22
10 Mar 2014, 20:02#22
". . . but good luck convincing them they should undergo the criticism that comes with the job."
Exactly! Your average whiny ref-bashing South African doesn't exactly make refereeing an attractive prospect so we should be eternally grateful that the top refs put up with the never-ending bitching and whining from the likes of Baboon-ou and Arthur John.  
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 Mar 2014, 20:07
#23
10 Mar 2014, 20:07#23
 Just use the TV ref properly for a start that would help.Now rooitwit it seems I thanked you too soon.  The refs are poor and too many mistakes are made. 
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,297 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
10 Mar 2014, 20:26
#24
10 Mar 2014, 20:26#24
Hansie Cronjie sends his best regards
AJ
Arthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
11 Mar 2014, 01:21
#25
11 Mar 2014, 01:21#25
  Rooinek....your name is real classy, you must be in NZ to have a name like that.
If you read my original submission (for your education it can be found at the top of this blog) you will see that I asked if I was alone in judging the quality of refs.
Our rugby group overwhelming found the standard below what it should be thus my posting.Thanks and please add more water, 95% water to 5% of that mixture you are consuming.
Vasbyt.
RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
11 Mar 2014, 07:03
#26
11 Mar 2014, 07:03#26
Actually you said the S15 refs were "out of their league". I'm just trying to establish what this "league" is and who you think should be in it.
I don't really care how many people complain about the quality of the S15 refs, it doesn't change the fact that they are the best we've got and they're doing as well as is humanly possible . . . so get used to it because your pitiful whining is becoming both annoying and embarrassing.
— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news