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RIP Heineken Cup

Started by hakwa31 REPLIES1,096 VIEWS· 20 Sept 2013, 15:19
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HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
20 Sept 2013, 15:19
#1
20 Sept 2013, 15:19#1

 OPINION: There's a quiet revolution happening up north - and not the good kind. 

While down here we've been occupying ourselves with Wallaby woes, Ma'a Nonu's next abode, and the pros and cons of Bismark du Plessis' red card, changes are afoot in European rugby that could render these debates utterly meaningless. 

In short, the Heineken Cup stands on the brink of extinction.

Doesn't sound like the most earth-shattering news, does it? It's not something many Kiwis have an interest in. 

Sure, a lot of All Blacks play in it; some chasing a golden goose, others simply looking for a different rugby experience. But for most down here it's a case of out sight, out of mind.

It would be naive to think, however, that what goes on in the European club scene is of little consequence to your average Chiefs or Crusaders fan. After all, who'd have thought the 1914 assassination of an Austrian Archduke would have led to World War I?

It's not too extreme an analogy when you look at why Europe's showpiece club competition faces the axe, despite remaining abundantly popular and lucrative. 

The problem lies with those pesky old Conquistadors, the English and the French. Put simply, they want to control the European club scene for their benefit and are happy to hold the northern - and indeed global - game to ransom until their demands are met. 

In place of taking a measured approach and looking for a negotiated path forward, they've decided to throw their toys out of the pram from the off.

Instead of committing to the Heineken Cup, the Anglo-French alliance have revealed their intentions to setup their own European tournament to compete with the incumbent. 

The English clubs, under the umbrella of Premier Rugby, have even gone a step further by signing a TV deal with BT - worth over NZ$200m - in direct competition to the long-standing relationship European Rugby Cup Ltd shares with Sky Sports. 

As a patronising after-thought they've offered the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians the option of taking part in the new venture - effectively saying: 'We've killed the life source of your game but we're willing to throw you a bone'. Aren't they nice?

They know the absence of a European Cup would be a killer blow to the game in these countries, so they've put a gun to their heads and offered them a Faustian pact. To add insult to injury, Premier Rugby has refused to allow either the Celtic nations or the ERC examine the detail of their BT deal. Why? Because you can be damn sure the devil's in it.

Perhaps it's the weight of history talking, but there's nothing that gets the back up more than nations like England and France deciding to embark on a game of Command and Conquer.

From a Kiwi perspective goings on up north could have serious implications for the international game. Both Premier Rugby and their French equivalents, Ligue Nationale de Rugby, have managed to force their national unions' hands and keep them hopelessly silent on the issue.  

The English RFU, it seems, wants to keep the clubs on side ahead of the 2015 Rugby World Cup while the FFR have always battled to keep control of their clubs in a nation where the club jersey is often more revered than the national one. The IRB meanwhile talks tough, but that's probably all it will do.

The pantomime villain of the piece is Premier Rugby chief Mark McCafferty, a money-driven individual in the mould of Khoder Nasser or Kia Joorabchian, who epitomises the gluttonous face of modern professional sport

Since taking up his role, McCafferty has cried 'wolf' about the number of qualification places awarded to the Celtic nations and Italians for the Heineken Cup. To be fair, there was merit in his argument. 

While bigger Celtic clubs such as Munster, Leinster and the Ospreys always compete on both fronts, the guaranteed presence of both the Italian and Scottish professional sides in Europe's top tier event, for example, has allowed them make it a priority at the expense of their domestic competition. Edinburgh's march to the 2013 Heineken Cup semifinals while sitting second bottom of the Pro 12 was testament to this.

But the Celts and Italians are open to negotiation it seems. If anything, making a top-six finish in the Pro12 a necessity for European action would help their league come on leaps and bounds. It would also stretch the resources of clubs like Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Ospreys who really have to travel to the fields of England and France to be properly challenged. 

That's what strange though. Suddenly the English and French have no interest in talking. They've been given their inch but now want to take a mile - a very long mile that may stretch as far as South Africa from 2015 onwards. In reality they never wanted to keep the Heineken Cup but never had the balls to say it. Instead they've been allowing imps like McCafferty chip away at the foundations behind the scenes to make their own beds even more comfortable. 

Suddenly they've no time for the Paddies and Taffes, the view from the Veldt is far more attractive than a soggy winter's night in Swansea or Limerick. 

Unlike in New Zealand and Australia, attendances for Super Rugby games in South Africa are good and there seems to be genuine atmosphere in the grounds - one of few areas in world rugby the northern sides constantly smash their antipodean rivals in. Logistically too, Europe would work better for South Africa. But would the Celts be happy to have away games in Cape Town? They might be forced to.

Should things change, none of it will have been done for the good of the global game but rather to fill the already bulging coffers of wealthy business men who've taken it upon themselves to dismantle the importance of the international game to make a quick buck at club level. They are looking to set a very dangerous precedent. But power is money these days.

They say rugby is a thugs' game played by gentlemen - pretty soon it could just be a game played by schmucks.    

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
20 Sept 2013, 15:54
#2
20 Sept 2013, 15:54#2

Not quite, Hakwa.

Interesting you decide to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the English without actually knowing all of the facts.

 

Do you realise that the Celtic nations don't have to qualify for the HC ? That the English and French do ? That the Celtic nations get a huge percent of the revenue in relation to the Anglo/French ? Look up the figures if you don't believe me. Are either of those things fair ? Especially given that most of the Anglo/French teams are the bigger draws than teams like Glasgow or Scarlets or the Italian counterparts that also do not have to qualify.....Treviso anyone ? Zebre ? No ?

Should they just waltz in and get a guaranteed spot in the competition when Leicester or Toulouse have to play 11 or 13 hard matches a season, plus Internationals, with all of their top players to make sure they qualify for these competitions ? Because they can't afford to leave a player out in case they don't finish top 6 and miss out on a spot in the HC. The Celtic clubs can rest the best players until the HC if they want. Like O'Driscoll a few years back, He played 4 matches for Leinster in the HC. Fresh as a daisy.

 

The English Clubs also have a salary cap, unlike the Irish and French teams.

 

The deal Premiership Rugby did with BT Sport was a folly and could get them into trouble, I believe.

But they have been talking about a tie in with SA Rugby teams for years now and, since Saracens is part owned by a South African Company, that has become ever more likely year on year.

This has given them an ideal opportunity to explore the matter or to use it as a bargaining tool to get a better deal for the HC.

 

You would have no interest in the HC if your players hadn't come over here in droves to play for our teams, so I'm not really sure why it's so important to you ! The HC isn't that important to me.

If they do join with SA, it will be an idiotic thing to do, if they get a fairer deal for all of the teams in Europe to stick to the old HC, that will be the best thing that could come of this.

As it stands, they are just playing cat and mouse with each other, as often happens over here and they will either wait to see who blinks first or it will end up in the courts.

 

The players and the fans are the last things that the Clubs and those " running " the game....or the " stakeholders " as they like to call themselves now, care about.

 

We could talk about this all day, but I really don't have the time or the inclination.

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
20 Sept 2013, 15:57
#3
20 Sept 2013, 15:57#3
thanks Becs - genuinely enjoyed your thoughts!
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
20 Sept 2013, 16:01
#4
20 Sept 2013, 16:01#4

Yeah yeah yeah !!!!! ;)

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
20 Sept 2013, 16:09
#5
20 Sept 2013, 16:09#5

I agree with a lot of what Becs has said. The only thing that I would beg to differ on, for obvious reasons (LOL), is the possible expansion to include South Africa. It is true about O'Drsicol in that one season.

 

It cannot be fair for the Celtic games to just waltz in and have it all as easy a pie and then get a big chunk of the money as well. It is the same as the Kings in the S15 and now in the new CC as well.

As for the deal with BT. Both football and rugby has been caught out by BT, IMO. They have laid out millions of £s for the Aviva Premiership and the EPL games and they did it to try and get market share of their broadband services and that failed. They did not really gain anything. In addition, they have been bragging about all the EPL games that they got, but they are showing more Geman, French, Italian and whatever football than anything else. They have two Aviva Premier league games this weekend. Worcester v Harlequins tonight and Gloucester v Saints tomorrow, and that is it. One EPL game for th entire weekend.

 

Ah well, the upside is that they show more CC games on Skysports. LOL.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Sept 2013, 17:09
#6
20 Sept 2013, 17:09#6
Hope SA does not get involved with that lot of schemers. There is a lot of talk and hot air here - but all the world is trying to expand rugby as a world sport - but the English would not help to get Scotland back on track and to help with the development of the game in Italy. The other issue is the rogue elements in French and English rugby try to downgrade SA Rugby by looting our player resources. If we get involved in their competition - it will even get worse.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
20 Sept 2013, 17:41
#7
20 Sept 2013, 17:41#7

A lot of people have over-estimate the "power" of SA Rugby. Our National side is ranked number 2 in the world and our other national sides are also not doing too bad, but that only indicates how strong/good our top tier players are. It says nothing of the depth and numbers of players. All in all we have 14 professional sides. We have six real strong professional sides. The first division of the CC is not all that strong and I mean on the field and finacially. In fact, they are struggling. I don't think that it is much different in Oz and NZ.

 

If you look at the French clubs alone. They have 14 professional clubs in their top tier league alone. The same as our total number of profesional sides. They have 16 sides in their second tier league, the Pro D2. That is 30 professional sides in total.

 

Then, when you move on to the English side of things. They have 12 sides playing in the Aviva Premiership. Their next tier is the RFU Championship with another 12 sides. That is 24 sides in total.

 

If their sole purpose behind the signing of SA players was to downgrade our rugby, they would just have used their stringer Euro and jumped in and cleared us out of all our professional players. They have the capacity and the money to do that. They would not have forked out 50,000 Euro per month just to sign Bryan Habana. They would have bought five other SA players at 10,000 Euro each per month. In addition, they would not have invested millions in Kiwis and Aussies and Pomms either. They would have gone flatout for SA players. Nee boet. They do not want to downgrade our rugby. They only want to strengthen their own sides and they have our weak currency on thier sides. To try and stop our players from playing in the NH is te deny them the right to earn the best salary that they can get.

 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Sept 2013, 18:59
#8
20 Sept 2013, 18:59#8
Ceradyne Frankly I do not think there will be a lot of interest in games against the French and English club sides - o the issue is not really only the players - it is also the general public here. Maybe emigres will watch it - but the broader public in SA will not. Despite all the ex-international players and others from the SH playing in club sides - I do believe that they re in fact over-rated. I watche the games regularly - but am not over-awed by them. The ITM for instance is a much stronger competition and the premium level CC are also better. They are not on par with the Super 15 competition as well. Although you mention the number of clubs in France and England -from what I have seen after watching the games regularly - only a small minority of clubs may be competitive on CC level - Grade 1 - and even in the CC Premier level. the majority of clubs are also played. In the main the clubs target players like Habana - who is still in his prime - but they also get some fringe players - who actually are in the Springbok team by the grace of Meyer. We can frankly do without them - to say the least. The other issue is our competitiveness on test level. In joining any NH competition - we will downgrade our competitiveness internationally. I frankly am against involvement in letting the SA sides play the English and French clubs - so as far as I am concerned - we should not get involved with the NH club system. In any event - I do not think SARU will want to get involved - and they are playing their own game to maximise income form SH competitions.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Sept 2013, 18:59
#9
20 Sept 2013, 18:59#9
CA
canrugbyClub Pro640 posts
20 Sept 2013, 20:06
#10
20 Sept 2013, 20:06#10

Agree with what Becs has said. Zebre won ZERO games last season in the pro 12 and yet they're part of the "elite" competition in Europe.... Somethings wrong with that.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
20 Sept 2013, 20:13
#11
20 Sept 2013, 20:13#11

Lots of assumptions and opinions in there. It is my opinion that the CC sides in general will all have their buts kicked by the most, if not all of the Top14 and Aviva sides. I would like to see the current Sharks/Lions/WP sides beat these sides:

 

Toulon: 15 Delon Armitage, 14 Alexis Palisson, 13 Mathieu Bastareaud, 12 Maxime Mermoz, 11 Rudi Wulf, 10 Jonny Wilkinson, 9 Michael Claassens, 8 Chris Masoe, 7 Steffon Armitage, 6 Virgile Bruni, 5 Danie Rossouw, 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Sebastien Bruno, 1 Xavier Chiocci,
Replacements: 16 Jean-Charles Orioli, 17 Andrew Sheridan, 18 Konstantine Mikautadze, 19 Juan Smith, 20 Vincent Martin, 21 Josua Tuisova, 22 David Smith, 23 Carl Hayman.

Castres: 15 Brice Dulin, 14 Romain Martial, 13 Romain Cabannes, 12 Remi Lamerat, 11 Marcel Garvey, 10 Remi Tales, 9 Rory Kockott, 8 Antonie Claassen, 7 Yannick Caballero, 6 Ibrahim Diarra, 5 Rodrigo Capo Ortega, 4 Piula Faasalele, 3 Karena Wihongi, 2 Brice Mach, 1 Yannick Forestier,
Replacements: 16 Marc Antoine Rallier, 17 Michael Coetzee, 18 Richard Gray, 19 Pedrie Wannenburg, 20 Julien Tomas, 21 Seremaia Bai, 22 Geoffrey Palis, 23 Mihaita Lazar.

 

Toulouse: 15 Yoann Huget, 14 Maxime Medard, 13 Florian Fritz, 12 Gael Fickou, 11 Hosea Gear, 10 Luke McAlister, 9 Jean Marc Doussain, 8 Louis Picamoles, 7 Thierry Dusautoir, 6 Gregory Lamboley, 5 Yoann Maestri, 4 Romain Millo Chlusky, 3 Census Johnston, 2 Christopher Tolofua, 1 Cyril Baille.
Replacements: 16 Martinus Jacobus van der Heever, 17 Dorian Aldegheri, 18 Joe Tekori, 19 Yannick Nyanga, 20 Sebastien Bezy, 21 Lionel Beauxis, 22 Timoci Matanavou, 23 Yohan Montes.

 

Racing Métro: 15 Benjamin Dambielle, 14 Virimi Vakatawa, 13 Henry Chavancy, 12 Alexandre Dumoulin, 11 Marc Andreu, 10 Jonathan Wisniewski, 9 Maxime Machenaud, 8 Camille Gerondeau, 7 Dan Lydiate, 6 Wenceslas Lauret, 5 Francois van der Merwe, 4 Fabrice Metz, 3 Luc Ducalcon, 2 Virgile Lacombe, 1 Davit Khinchagishvili.
Replacements: 16 Dimitri Szarzewski, 17 Eddy Ben Arous, 18 Jone Qovu, 19 Bernard le Roux 20 Laurent Magnaval, 21 Jonathan Sexton, 22 Benjamin Fall, 23 Julien Brugnaut.

 

Brive: 15 Laurent Ferreres, 14 Guillaume Namy, 13 Arnaud Mignardi, 12 Riaan Swanepoel, 11 Gaetan Germain, 10 Romain Sola, 9 Jean baptiste Pejoine, 8 Sisaro Koyamaibole, 7 Dominiko Waqaniburotu, 6 Petrus Hauman, 5 Arnaud Mela, 4 Julien Ledevedec, 3 Patrick Barnard, 2 Guillaume Ribes, 1 Goderzi Shvelidze,
Replacements: 16 Francois Da ros, 17 Karlen Asieshvili, 18 Olivier Caisso, 19 Hugues Briatte, 20 Thomas Sanchou, 21 Thomas Laranjeira, 22 Elia Radikedike, 23 Kevin Buys,

 

Bayonne: 15 Scott Spedding, 14 Martin Bustos moyano, 13 Joe Rokocoko, 12 Gabiriele Lovobalavu, 11 Marvin O'Connor, 10 Stephen Brett, 9 Mike Phillips, 8 Opeti Fonua, 7 Julien Puricelli, 6 Jean Monribot, 5 Lisiate Faaoso, 4 Dewald Senekal, 3 Nemiah Tialata, 2 David Roumieu, 1 Aretz Iguiniz,
Replacements: 16 Gregory Arganese, 17 JC Janse van Rensburg, 18 Abdellatif Boutaty, 19 Dwayne Haare, 20 Guillaume Rouet, 21 Manu Ahotaeiloa, 22 Matthieu Ugalde, 23 Gert Muller.

 

Stade Français: 15 Jerome Porical, 14 Richard Kingi, 13 Geoffrey Doumayrou, 12 Martin Rodriguez, 11 Djibril Camara, 10 Meyer Bosman, 9 Julien Dupuy, 8 Scott Lavalla, 7 Nicolas Garrault, 6 Olivier Missoup, 5 Gerhard Mostert, 4 Carl Wegner, 3 David Attoub, 2 Remi Bonfils, 1 Sakaria Taulafo.
Replacement: 16 Michael van Vuuren, 17 Romain Frou, 18 Pascal Pape, 19 Pierre Rabadan, 20 Jerome Fillol, 21 Peter Lydon, 22 Hugo Bonneval, 23 Davit Kubriashvili.

 

I don't really know which games you have watched, but I have seen how you assess those games. Enough said.

 

 

CA
canrugbyClub Pro640 posts
20 Sept 2013, 20:26
#12
20 Sept 2013, 20:26#12

Clermont is a very solid side as well.

 

CC teams would have their hands full with these clubs.

 

Leicester, Saracens, and the 'Quins are also top level squads that could take on Super 15 teams. There's more then enough good teams to give South Africa good competition.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Sept 2013, 20:32
#13
20 Sept 2013, 20:32#13
I watched most of the games of the top 14 teams and if I do not watch them I see the highlights packages. If you look purely at the teams you have really have a lot of hasbeens in the teams.- as well as players who struggled in SA to make the starting line-ups in CC teams locally. Some of the players have huge reputations - but since they are well past 30 years of age - they are just playing to get a decent "pension" - especially in the case of SA players is concerned. I can assure you I watched a lot of games and am not really impressed by what I saw. However thanks for the teams for this weekend. the matches the weekend prior to the last one - Steenkamp was playing for Toulouse. He was a disaster and one of the reasons why Toulouse lost the game. That is what I mean with hasbeens as well. What he is still doing in the SA test squad only Meyer would know.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
20 Sept 2013, 20:48
#14
20 Sept 2013, 20:48#14

This is getting nowhere. Once you have proven that you can watch a game and give a true account of what has happened, I might pay attention again. Oh yes, and those were not the teams for thsi weekend. I got them form the Planetrugby results page from previous rounds. The teams for this weekend is not up yet.

 

The matches thee week prior to the last one must have been the weekend of 7/8/9 September and you are correct, Toullouse did loose to Montpellier, but Gurthro Steenkamp did not play in that game. So, how do you explain your remark that he was a disaster and one of the reasons why they lost. Fact is that Steenkamp was in the Bok 23 on the 7th against Aus. This was the line-ups for that game.

Montpllier: 15 Anthony Floch, 14 Yoan Audrin, 13 Anthony Tuitavake, 12 Wynand Olivier, 11 Timoci Nagusa,10 Francois Trinh-Duc, 9 Jonathan Pelissie, 8 Alex Tulou, 7 Alexandre Bias, 6 Fulgence Ouedraogo, 5 Thibaut Privat, 4 Mickael de Marco, 3 Nicolas Mas, 2 Mickael Ivaldi, 1 Yvan Watremez
Replacements: 16 Charles Geli, 17 Leleimalefaga, 18 Robins Tchale Watchou, 19 John Beattie, 20 Benoit Paillaugue, 21 Thomas Combezou, 22 Benoit Sicart, 23 Maximiliano Bustos

 

Toulouse: 15 Yoann Huget, 14 Maxime Medard, 13 Yann David, 12 Florian Fritz, 11 Hosea Gear, 10 Luke McAlister, 9 Jean Marc Doussain, 8 Louis Picamoles, 7 Thierry Dusautoir, 6 Yannick Nyanga, 5 Joe Tekori, 4 Romain Millo Chlusky, 3 Census Johnston, 2 Christopher Tolofua, 1 Schalk Ferreira.
Replacements: 16 Martinus Jacobus van der Heever, 17 Cyril Baille, 18 Dorian Aldegheri, 19 Yoann Maestri, 20 Yacouba Camara, 21 Gillian Galan, 22 Sebastien Bezy, 23 Lionel Beauxis

 

Looks like your eyes deceived you once again. Case closed.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
20 Sept 2013, 23:11
#15
20 Sept 2013, 23:11#15

The one team in England that plunders SA for players is Saracens and that reason is self explanatory....the club is part owned by a SA company. Basically, it seems a time share arrangement !! Other teams are not that fussed about SA players, it seems. They have the odd player and that is that. AS it should be, we should concentrate on our own players, like you do yours.

Mike seems to think that all we do is think about SA, I assure you that isn't the case !

If you want to criticise anyone for plundering resources, it is France in the main, closely followed by Ireland. Because they don't have a salary cap !!! Not an English issue after all.

 

As for the teams not being up to CC level, that really is a joke.

I watch SA Rugby, have done for years and I can assure you that most teams in the Premiership would not have a problem with the CC whatsoever. A lot of what is on display in that tournament is very poor.

 

You also have to remember that our weather conditions do make the way we play an awful lot different and we can't always run harem scarum from one end of the field to the other all day long. That, to be honest, can just show a really poor level of defence anyway !! I'd rather see a decent game of Rugby played with a low score any day of the week !!!

 

As for us leaving Scotland and Italy high and dry.....really ? What has Ireland done to help them ? Massive wages, buying players from all over the world that they know those teams can't cope with ? How has that helped their Celtic and Italian cousins might I ask ? Why is it always England that are the only one's in the wrong ? Hmmm ? Just a thought !

 

And, the last point I will make about the proposed SA/Anglo/French jolly......the logistics are an idiocy :) 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Sept 2013, 01:35
#16
21 Sept 2013, 01:35#16
Ceradyne Sorry it was the game of the previous weekend - not the one you are referring to. I was thinking of the game on the weekend of the 31 August that was the off weekend when the SA players was in France and Steenkamp started for Toulouse and was on the field of play for 71 minutes - since one of the Toulouse props was injured. He was utterly useless in that game - also lost by Toulouse..
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Sept 2013, 09:52
#17
21 Sept 2013, 09:52#17

 So in a nutshell is this going to weaken NH  Rugby ?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Sept 2013, 10:37
#18
21 Sept 2013, 10:37#18
Wardad Despite what is written above - one has to look at issues on a practical basis. During the past few seasons the English clubs have not achieved much in the Heineken Cup. They blame the Irish and French for that and as becs said the uncapped player perks. The whole issue stinks to high heaven and will weaken international rugby. They - the English and French clubs - will throw a few bones to other parties who are not going to get what they should. They are not interested to promote rugby - it is all pure interest in their own internal club games. In the meantime their own national teams are a joke in bad taste. England lies at no 3 in the world and only because the Australian team has been struggling. Matter of fact the Welsh are the best team in Europe at present I think that for the sake of international rugby and the sake of our own competitiveness SA should stay away from that lot.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Sept 2013, 12:03
#19
21 Sept 2013, 12:03#19

 Vlag what is bloody irritating is that Sky is not showing much CC on Sat, in fact they have shown no games other than Fri nights for the past few weeks - pisses me off no end, especially considering they are showing nothing ofnote in its place.

 

You would think they would at least have it on red button - wankers

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Sept 2013, 12:10
#20
21 Sept 2013, 12:10#20

 Sad to see young lock Carl Wegner playing for Stade. Drotske cocked that up by failing to select Carl until it was too late. He would have been an ideal partner for Lood de Jager

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Sept 2013, 13:54
#21
21 Sept 2013, 13:54#21

@Saffex. To be fair, it is an SA domestic competition and I get the impression that they do try and accommodate as much SH rugby as possible. Last weekend they had all the CC games.

@Ou Maaikie. You have a problem. You just do not know when to stop digging. You may have watched the match but you clearly do not follow what is going on in the league. This is an extract from the match report:

Clermont led 13-10 at break and the teams were separated by a single point going into the final 15 minutes but late tries from flank Julien Bonnaire and centre Wesley Fofana ensured that les Jaunards maintained their three-year unbeaten record on home soil - a run of 61 consecutive matches. In a perfect response to last week's humbling defeat to newcomers Oyonnax, Clermont outscored Toulouse by four tries to one with the 19-times champions looking decidedly frail up front after a series of injuires decimated their ranks.

 

There was a series of injuries and it was definitely not down to Steenkamp alone. It was a whole series of injuries.

 

 

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Sept 2013, 13:59
#22
21 Sept 2013, 13:59#22

 Its a shame when shady deals are made behind closed doors ,with Rugby coming out 2nd best .I enjoy watching the odd Heinneken cup french top 14s or whatever its called ,Curry Cup { I still reckon that sounds like an Indian take -away  ] ITM etc . Its the only reason i bother with pay TV and setanta .

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Sept 2013, 14:07
#23
21 Sept 2013, 14:07#23
Ceradyne Sorry to differ from you - there were a series of injuries as you said - but Steenkamp was a major problem in scrums - he was one of their main problems. He does not normally start for Toulouse and is on the bench. What Meyer wants with that one in his match day squad heaven only knows.. He really is disgustingly bad - fat and useless..
IH
IhiClub Pro201 posts
21 Sept 2013, 14:24
#24
21 Sept 2013, 14:24#24

Mike i dont know what games you have been watching but the french and english sides are well capable of standing up to the sh sides. at best the jarpies can put out three teams that can compete with the brits and frogs - namely the bulls, cheetahs and probably the stormers. itm is like what? a sorta lesser currie cup in fact. and mate steenkamp is your best loosehead in the scrums! i went through those statistics a while ago.

now into the whole debate about moving north? it would be in sa interest to better develop their rugby. the sh has gone stale and new zealand have taken the irb over. talk about rugby coming out second best just watch every all black game!
 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
21 Sept 2013, 14:40
#25
21 Sept 2013, 14:40#25

 @Ihi where is your proof that the SH has gone stale? Most of the NH clubs have SH coaches!

and what is wrong with watching every ABs game? That statement does not make sense!

IH
IhiClub Pro201 posts
21 Sept 2013, 14:48
#26
21 Sept 2013, 14:48#26

how many whored out games can one person stomach in the sh? even carlos spencer, mehrtens and another new zealand i cant remember his name said that sh rugby is boring! habana said so and also du preez. these are among the biggest names in sh history. its not just anout money its about finding something more interesing and the nh rugby is far more diverse better run more profitable and overall more enjoyable. i can actually add larkham to that list too.

the last statement makes perfect sense. the all blacks of the turn of the century are not the great side of the 90s and further back. they are coddled by the irb in what is obvious corruption within the game. they got a world cup for their efforts and shattered what would have been great wins and moments for other sides by crooked reffing and constantly being allowed to get awa with foul play. new zealand are now up to over 100 penalties to a yellow card. sa are around 5 still and australia only a little more then that. pretty sad stuff. it goes even worse then that the more you dig.
 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
21 Sept 2013, 14:56
#27
21 Sept 2013, 14:56#27

 mate, r u sure u r not Beeno's twin?

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Sept 2013, 15:34
#28
21 Sept 2013, 15:34#28

 Haka: Perhaps IHI is just making fun of our much liked beeno1, lol there is no way two posters could think this way.

Please don't make fun of him IHI, he is a good guy :)

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Sept 2013, 16:08
#29
21 Sept 2013, 16:08#29

Ou Maaik. I think you have it wrong. Go read the macth reports and see how depleted the Toulose side was this season on many occasions. You just cannot put it down to one man's performance. Not if you have an entire team disrupted. You have a tendency of blaming each and every loss on players you have a huge dislike in. Even when the teams win, you still single out your pet hates for poor play. You would go as far as lying, and then accuse me of lying, to suit your little agenda. Would you like me to repeat those posts from your previous effort with the Stade Francais game? I will again put up my assessment as well as the video clip and your "allegations" of my "lying", if you wish, and then we can ask the others on this thread to give their view. I expect you to wait for this thread to disappear off the index page again, without rising to the challenge.

 

@Hakwa. I think you are over estimating the number of SH coaches in the NH. Do yourself a favour and check up on that.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Sept 2013, 08:38
#30
22 Sept 2013, 08:38#30
Ceradyne I decided not to get personal in future and in my latest comments turned away from personal attacks. I even complimented you on some points raised. However, when I pointed out the poor scrumming of Steenkamp in that Toulouse game - you again became personal rather than dealing with the issue at hand. Can you really dispute the fact that in the man Steenkamp is not the starting player and is normally on the Toulouse bench? I do not have pet hates against certain players - I normally see what they actually deliver and not the smokescreen created by the media and others. I can quote some players where I share a general opinion on players. for instance that - * orne Steyn is a one-dimentional, easily read flyhalf - which pose no real threats in attacking play for the Springbok backline - and his strategic and relieving kicking game in general is poor as well - his only attribute being his kicks at goal; * that the Springbok loosies are questionable as is shown by their performance in various games and in particular the Soweto test last year against the All Blacks when thy were extremely poor in all department of the game - based on their stats in that game.. There are other weak spots in Meyer's squad like the full back and a lock to partner Etzebeth. Nobody really rate Kruger as a player with grunt and Van der Merwe is poor in line-outs and a regular penalty liability as well. However, be it as it may - you have a different opinion on issues and I respect that. I will in future not use personal attacks when there are different opinions on issues - but will respond in kind if that persists on the part of other posters. Kindly stay with rugby responses and leave out personal attacks as a means of trying to justify the non-justifiable. If you differ - give examples that are rugby-related and prove me wrong. That is a healthy way to debate issues. . . .
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
22 Sept 2013, 14:59
#31
22 Sept 2013, 14:59#31

 You are doing well Mike and I always enjoy reading your analysis - same as Sasu's!

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Sept 2013, 21:59
#32
22 Sept 2013, 21:59#32

Ou Maaikie, you are the master of the personal attack. This is now the second time that you have decided to not to get personal in future. The previous time when you made this commitment, Mozart said that he was willing to give it ago, but he did say that he did not have much hope of it lasting. He was not wrong. The very first post you made the next day was another direct attack on Mozart. I have not launched any attack on your person. I just doubted your assessment of what is going on in the French Top 14, because of a number of mistakes you have already made. I never said that Gurthro Steenkamp did not suffer in the scrums. I did, however, point out to you the difficulties that they entire team had due to a series of injuries. That is a fact, and not an opinion of mine. I never declare my opinions as a fact. I leave that to another board member who loves to put forward and opinion, and then end his argument with "FACT".

 

You have not convinced me that you do not have pet-hates. As far as I am concerned you have proven that you have pet-hates, on more than one occasion. May I remind you of the Stade Francais game where you have gone as far as fabricated events during the game to have a bash at one of your pet hates. I have asked you on numerous occasions whether you want me to bring that thread to the top again so that you can prove where I got it wrong. You have never once taken me up on that challenge. I would in fact like to hear from hakwa what he thinks of your assessment of those events.

 

To get back to this Toulouse game, that you have once again brought up, I would like you to explain to me how Gurthro Steenkamp is to blame as one of the main figures in the demise of Toulouse in that game.

 

My other issue is that I wonder if you ever enjoy a single rugby game. I get the idea that you are an extremely negative type of person, and I am not trying to be rude here. You just never seem to see anything positive in any SA side. Not even your won side that you claim to support. I have never once seen a post or a thread where you have said anything positive about the Sharks or there players. If you really are a Sharks supporter you are really hiding it very well.

 

In any case, this argument has nothing to do with all of this. It was actually about the issues that the NH clubs have with the Heineken Cup.

 

I have seen somewhere that the RFU and the Ligue Nationale de Rugby have already announced the name of their planned competition. It will, at this stage be called the Rugby Champions Cup. They are in negotiations with a TV deal and the clubs  from the RaboDirect Pro12 teams have already expressed thier interest. The ERC is stuffing the negotiations up by not dealing with the matter in any urgent way. They have now again set a meeting for 23 Oct while the English and French clubs wanted to deal with it sooner. My own stand is that the ERC and the Heineken will be worth noting without England and France and if the Pro12 teams pulls out as well, they will sit with a competition which you will rightfully be able to call on a lower level that the CC.

— END OF THREAD —

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