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Road to nowhere

Started by Saffolk 24 REPLIES977 VIEWS· 13 Sept 2016, 16:45
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Sept 2016, 16:45
#1
13 Sept 2016, 16:45#1
 

I see some saying the odd player here or there would not make the difference…….hellooooo, it’s not about the odd one or two players. Ten of the starting 15 last week were by no stretch the best in their respective positions, so it’s not about one or two players, it’s about two thirds of the starting side being incorrect. Add a bench that contains the likes of Mbonambi, Paige and Morne Steyn……less said the better.

 

With reference to the incorrect 10…….Goosen is a great rugby player but he is not a fullback, as much as he is not a centre…..he is physically not up to the role. He is a flyhalf end of and should be on the bench as our back-up 10. Willie should have been retained as Eddie Jones did with Mike Brown. Class is permanent, form temporary.

 

Habana is done has been for some time now, time to move on and moving on does not mean has been Mvovo…..the ridiculous squad selection Coetzee has made. There are better in form youngsters like Ulengo, Ismiel and Sergeal Petersen. Combrink, Senatla and Skosan are injured.

 

Hougaard has been in sublime form for Worcester at 9 and like Goosen is wasted out of position on the wing. Has never been a wing. He should be our bench 9.

 

De Jongh at 12 is an insult, how many more times do we have to witness this little pretender go AWOL at test level, problem is, he is a Coetzee favourite. Nice little player at CC level although he would never make my CC side as a centre. He is physically not up to playing centre at test level……cant impose himself physically in defence or attack……most of test rugby is played in traffic……de Jongh is only effective in space, with his step and technically efficient open field tackles. Operate him in traffic and he gets dominated. De Allende might not be in the greatest form of his life, but he has already proved himself at test level and has been effective carrying the ball up in traffic despite his form. As with Willie, you stick with class and you show faith. If you are going to make a change then make a merit change by rewarding the impressive Janse van Rensburg……how bloody obvious? Frans Venter and Odendaal are also far better options than de Jongh as is Mnisi. Serfontein is injured. Good to see Kriel back at 13 where he belongs, was by far our best back with little ball, but it was his impressive defence that stood out.

 

So in the backs, Goosen is not a fullback, Hougaard not a wing, Habana is past it and de Jongh is an insult of a test 12. Of the merit selections, Jantjies is struggling under the useless Coetzee’s direction as was the case when he played under him at the Stormers. His free spirited attacking style is supressed under the conservative Coetzee……we see no transition from Jantjies at Super level to test level as we see with Barrett or Cruden for the AB’s where patterns of play are mirrored. Same can be said of Faf, who started well but is now also being sucked into the uncertainty and directionless modus op that Coetzee instils.

 

In the forwards we have Beast bumbling along no longer making the impressions he used to and in the process keeping out potentially the best loosehead in the game in Kitshoff, what a bloody wasted talented this guy is. He should have long established himself as our starting loosehead. He always improves things when he replaces Beast. Nyakane is better than Beast these days.

 

Strauss has been poor all year it would appear that leadership burdens him and affects his form and he is an average leader at best. Currently the fourth best hooker behind Bismark, Marx and Akers, which says it all really

 

The biggest insult of them all has to be the selection of Adriaanse as our starting tighthead. No further evidence is required to define Coetzee as a coach with a selection like this. It’s a bloody joke. How in heavens name can a test coach bring himself to select the likes of Adriaanse at test level? Why was Koch discarded, where is Marcel v/d Merwe, what about Maks v/Dyk of the Cheetahs, hell even Nyakane or Thomas du Toit out of position would have been better options. It’s a bloody insult seeing the knocked kneed narrow shouldered old man shuffling about on the field. Geez Coetzee you are an idiot

 

How much longer do we have to endure average Louw, what exactly does he bring to the party? Turnovers, very few if any, nothing with ball in hand as you expect from a linking 6, so whats the bloody point. In Jaco Kriel, we have one of the best opensides in the game feeding off scraps off the Bok bench. The guy is so, so much better than Louw and its embarrassing that he has not spent the last few years starting at 6 for the Boks, its bloody insulting. Louw like Schalk was never built for 6, just like Marcel Coetzee is not. Playing average Louw ahead of Kriel sums the utterly useless Coetzee up just like it did Meyer.

 

Oupa like de Jongh is a nice little CC player…….good skills and heart but just not physical enough to be a test 7, not even close…..he is no bruiser, we need a bruiser at 7. There are many better options who sadly all happen to be white……Jacques du Plessis, Kirtsen, Elstadt and the du Preez twins…..not to mention Mostert who should be playing 7 given his size. But what does Coetzee do, he brings in past it Alberts who has not had a noteworthy game in two seasons. Has this idiot Coetzee learnt nothing from the clown Meyer?

 

Same theory applies to Whiteley…..plenty of talent but no grunt, you need a bit of grunt as a test 8.

 

So in the forwards we have Beast past it, Strauss our 4th best hooker, Adriaanse the biggest Bok insult since Braam at 10, Louw a never been, Oupa a pretender and Whiteley, well another pretender

 

As for Coetzee, has there ever been a more out of depth coach than this guy, we never thought PdV would be surpassed but I think Coetzee will be giving him a run for his money. He clearly cant select, it’s not so much the marginal selections like Habana, Beast, Oupa and Whiteley……it’s the selection of Morne Steyn, Adriaanse and now Alberts that has one reaching for the pills…..white players, not political must selections. How can you begin to select Adriaanse as your tighthead and why on earth take the massive backwards step in recalling the utterly useless Morne as your back-up 10?

 

Coetzee’s biggest failing is that he is a soft touch, he has no conviction, he is Mr nice guy. The public want him to play the Lions way, which is the correct way but he is not comfortable with that for its not his way and he is not astute enough to adapt and employ that way. With conviction he should be playing it his way even if it’s the wrong way, giving the side direction in that way, despite it being the wrong way. At least if they are going to play boring direct rugby, kicking for position then instruct the players to do as such…..don’t pick an attacking 9 & 10  and supress their free spirit, don’t pick a 7 & 8 that lack physicality if you want to play it short. Selecting Morne on the bench smacks of the Coetzee way, bring Alberts in smacks of the Coetzee way……it’s how Coetzee had his Stormers play……boring defensively minded rugby. So Coetzee is selecting players he is not comfortable with, cant instruct them to play the way they are used to playing and is therefore stuck between a rock and a hard place……….its the road to nowhere…….the players are directionless and the Kiwi’s will prey on this. The saddest thing about Coetzee is that we know he does not have what it takes to play modern winning rugby, something Ackerman and Swys at the Lions do.

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
13 Sept 2016, 17:45
#2
13 Sept 2016, 17:45#2
Dave u are spot on with your assessment of the squad selected by Coetzee.Unfortunately all of us are saddled with the ANC transformation demands in selection and I for one cannot see any changes on the horizon.
Thus said we either have to accept and live with a lower standard with respect to Rugby and Cricket from RSA or boycott these completely.
It is a pity that the international sport administrators have chosen to be politically correct. Hopefully this will change in our lifetime but I am not so sure of that happening.
So in the mean time we have to be content to sit back and watch the Springbok team get hammered weekly.
It hurts to see the Green and Gold being humiliated not by the sportsmen but by politicians.
Sad but true.
Have a great day.
Cheers.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Sept 2016, 20:12
#3
13 Sept 2016, 20:12#3
 You got you got a bunch of newbies....they are trying to play a more expansive game. Trouble is that it won't work unless you have the talent to play that style, which we don't.
This idea of the Boks playing Lions rugby was never going to work.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Sept 2016, 20:40
#4
13 Sept 2016, 20:40#4
 The idea of poor selections and clueless coaching - so strongly supported by you in the past - will never work,
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Sept 2016, 20:43
#5
13 Sept 2016, 20:43#5
It's  all come apart for you Tokkie.....now just eat you crow like a nice Oompie.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 06:37
#6
14 Sept 2016, 06:37#6
 It al came apart for all of us - bar you - in the latter part of 2014 and 2015 - nothing new for me in that case.   REMEMBER JAPAN.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
14 Sept 2016, 07:53
#7
14 Sept 2016, 07:53#7
 "Class is permanent, form is temporary" ... Probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard ... and based on this we need to keep Willie?
He was brought in as stop gap when Meyer had no other option. Class he's never been ... and now form has deserted him too ... but hey!!! let's select him for another useless stint. 
Janse van Rensburg is a must at 12. Venter needs to be brought into the mix and Vorster is a definite improvement at 13.  
We can call for these changes all we like ... nothing is going to happen. Not while this useless quota is running the show.
Even if we brought our best selection of players into the match 23 ... Coetzee will find a way to continue the downward spiral.
I'm afraid all is lost.
I see we have the potential of still being in the top 10 by end 2017. Well ... that's about as exciting as it gets for us these days.


 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Sept 2016, 14:45
#8
14 Sept 2016, 14:45#8
Venter is an absolute cart horse....totally embarrassed by faster centres. Vorster is untested and injured. How,  I ask you with tears in my eyes, does that compute. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 16:54
#9
14 Sept 2016, 16:54#9
 I can say that Veter is  not s fast as he should be - but he has nearly double  the pace of Fat Fransie,   so in terms of Mozart believes hat is good for the goose is not good for the gander.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 16:54
#10
14 Sept 2016, 16:54#10
 I can say that Veter is  not s fast as he should be - but he has nearly double  the pace of Fat Fransie,   so in terms of Mozart believes hat is good for the goose is not good for the gander.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Sept 2016, 17:02
#11
14 Sept 2016, 17:02#11
 

So Moz, the Lions players are in tune with the pattern of play advocated by their coach, which without a shadow of doubt has produced positive results and you are saying the Boks cant implement the same because we don’t have the players……what a load of utter rubbish. I note you mention that we got our newbies and it failed……who the hell are they exactly? Would it be Goosen as a fullback, Hougaard as a wing? Or would that be old men Mvovo, JP and Habana on the wings? Or better still de Jongh at 12, Morne Steyn on the bench, never been Paige on the bench? Or was it Beast at loosehead, Strauss at 2, Redelinghuis or the wonderful Adriaanse at 3, or was it Louw at 6, Oupa at 7 and Whiteley at 8, or was it Mbonambi on the bench or better still is it the recall of Alberts?

 

So Moz, who are these newbies you are on about, for clearly we are watching different games?

 

Fact is Meyer got his selections hopelessly wrong. He eventually woke up to the young talent that took the AB’s close when it was too late. Coetzee instead of building on this, chose to start as clueless Meyer did and is reaping the negative rewards as a result. The guy is a complete fool, completely out of touch with how the game needs to be played or who the best players are. He like Meyer is clearly stuck in a time warp with regards to pattern and players. Who in their right mind would recall Morne and Alberts for goodness sake?

 

So if the Lions are able to reap rewards playing the correct style of play, why on earth would the Boks not be able to adopt and implement that style, given the Boks should be made up of the best 23 players available……something useless Coetzee can only get 30% right in terms of selections. Your call makes absolutely no sense as usual.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Sept 2016, 17:05
#12
14 Sept 2016, 17:05#12

AJ its really sad seeing potentially our best group of youngsters being sold down the river by a pathetic coach.


Gone are the days that I look forward to or get excited about watching the Boks


My expectations are so low - I now expect us to lose


Coetzee is a disgrace......his side is 30% correct........and those 30% merit are struggling under his lack of direction


Its an almighty mess  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Sept 2016, 17:07
#13
14 Sept 2016, 17:07#13

Venter slow......what a load of utter rubbish.....just like Serf is slow


None of these guys are any slower than Jean, Frans Steyn, Crotty, Nonu, Roberts  etc ever were and that's a fact 

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
14 Sept 2016, 19:50
#14
14 Sept 2016, 19:50#14
 Dave,        My son in-law who knows almost as much as Coetzee about coaching has come up with a regular term for our SA rugby get together to watch the Boks.
He calls it " Slaughter Saturdays"
Unfortunately he has been right thus far this season.
Cheers.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,265 posts
14 Sept 2016, 21:19
#15
14 Sept 2016, 21:19#15
A good coach that could select 100% based on merit could put a good team together that could "maybe" stay in the top 3. 
Even without quotas- the talent pool has been better than what it currently is. Maybe too many players are leaving shores- and our teams have become a comedy in the SuperXV.
We have lots of decent players at the moment- but only a few are exceptional when in form. 
Willie Leroux should be in the team as long as he is banned from making chip kicks over the top. Exzebeth and Steph Dutoit, and even an old Habana are good

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Sept 2016, 22:43
#16
14 Sept 2016, 22:43#16
 The point is very simple Dave:
1 Players in our other franchises are not used to the Lions inter passing game, and don't have those skills. It took the Lions 4 years persevering with the same team core and the same tactics to evolve those skills. It will take longer for players who go back and forth between playing styles.
2 If we go the route of overweighting the Lions to establish the playing style, we are short on test talent....most of the Lions players will top out at Super rugby, including Whiteley, Mostert , Kriel, Mapoe, Jantjies and Redlinghuis.......there just aren't enough test level players to overweight the Bok team.
You will disagree, but I'm right.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 Sept 2016, 13:52
#17
15 Sept 2016, 13:52#17
 

You said it Moz, I disagree 100%. Players at the highest level of provincial rugby will have the basic skill set to be able to take on board what a coach like Ackerman and Swys advocate at the Lions……we saw that with the little time Ackerman had with the SA A side.

 

As we all keep saying, Ackerman had the least resources to work with at the Lions in terms of players. The likes of the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have had the lions share of player talent over the past 5 years or so. So there are more skilful players about than many Ackerman has had to use to achieve the results he has.

 

I agree it takes time to change and move away from our traditional patterns of conservative play, but the Lions have done that, the Bulls and Stormers are heading in the right direction and the Cheetahs have always played with freedom to express. Therefore our national coach should ultimately be in tune with what works and should be advocating the same style…….much like we see with the transition from provincial to test rugby with the All Blacks……its seamless.

 

Coetzee is just way out of his depth, he is only comfortable with the conservative approach, much like Meyer, Ludeke and Gold were/are. It took new more dynamic coaches to change the way the Bulls and Stormers are playing and yes we will only see the fruits is a season or two if these provinces can actually hold onto their players which is looking increasingly unlikely each year.

 

So in effect we are on the road to nowhere with Coetzee, he is not astute enough to change his style of play nor would he be comfortable with the change……with that comes the issue with certain types of players……the free spirited attacking types struggle under Coetzee……Willie, Jantjies, Faf, Jaco Kriel and Whiteley spring to mind.

 

The Bok coaching job should have been a merit one with Ackerman and Swys de Bruin given the job……with that we would have seen the Lions model with a core of the Lions squad forming his Bok core in Combrink, Skosan, Vorster, Janse v/Rensburg, Jantjies, Faf, Marx, Akers, Mostert and Jaco Kriel.

 

Imagine how much the likes of Willie, Gelant, Senatla, Sergel Petersen, Kolbe, Jessie Kriel, Notshe, Carr and Hougaard as a 9 would thrive playing the Lions way.

 

The Lions coaches and core players, plus the free spirited players above, plus the some of the likes of Ulengo, Ismiel, de Allende, Serfontein, Frans Venter, Odendaal, Pollard, Lambie, Goosen, Reinach, Kitshoff, Nyakane, Thomas du Toit, Malherbe, Marcel v/d Merwe, Koch, Bismark, Strauss, Etzebeth, Lood, PSDT, Willemse, RG. Snyman, Jenkins, Kolisi, Jacques du Plessis, Kirsten, du Preez twins, Marcel Coetzee, Arno Botha, Liebenberg and Mtembu would provide positive results unlike like the predictable crap Coetzee is dishing up each week.

 

I dread to think what NZ are going to do to us this weekend……they are going to prey on our uncertainty. If the bleeding wound that has saved our blushes in the past does not come to the fore this weekend, I fear this side will implode in a big way moving forward for Coetzee does not have the metal to change things and inspire the side. We are going to have to rely of pure determination and heart to make it a close game……but somehow I just can’t see this bunch having enough to even try rely on that.

 

How sad is it that I no longer get excited about watching my beloved Boks play…….my expectations are so low…….I expect the Boks to get thrashed this weekend, how sad is that?

 

Our only hope is that things get bad enough that Coetzee throws in the towel for one certainty is that the ignorant uninterested powers that be will not sack him.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2016, 15:09
#18
15 Sept 2016, 15:09#18
Dave while I certainly don't agree with all the players you endorse, I also think Coetzee has already demonstrated he can't motivate warriors.......he will as you say, take us nowhere.

Personally I think the Poms strategy is about right for the Springboks....it's a more balanced game, but certainly doesn't leave out use of the backline.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
16 Sept 2016, 10:07
#19
16 Sept 2016, 10:07#19
 That's where you're going wrong. 
Thinking!!
You should try not to do that too often, Mozart!!
We've already seen several of your posts after a good bout of ... "thinking" ... 
It's bad for you ... and I think I can speak for most of us on this board ... we're tired of trying to read through all the garbled nonsense ... 
Be a pal will ya??



MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
16 Sept 2016, 10:30
#20
16 Sept 2016, 10:30#20
Dave,Since you have removed Coenie from your must have list, your posts have become so much more accurate. I actually agree with your thoughts.Remove Coenie and your credibility increases 10 fold.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Sept 2016, 11:25
#21
16 Sept 2016, 11:25#21

Monster maybe you should try add some value to the debate instead of banging on about a single player.


As for Coenie, my take has not changed never will.....I just forgot him as I'm sure I have a few others  

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
16 Sept 2016, 14:37
#22
16 Sept 2016, 14:37#22
 

A good coach that could select 100% based on merit could put a good team together that could "maybe" stay in the top 3. 



That is the point.

SA only train players to be part of a loser side. They wont win.

The main question is straightforward: why would you keep a team like that?

Rugby does not create resources. It only consumes resources. Nations with what they feel an excess of resources could allocate some to rugby.
It is no longer the case for SA as the local resources were squandered by excellent men.
 You cant select on merit when losing, only when winning.
White SA also consider they have a birth right to be the losers. So the team cant be representative without hurting people's feelings.

It gets harder as days passes to justify the practice of XV rugby in SA.

It is expensive and SA can no longer afford the expenses.
The current SA creed make it hard to send losers of all races as white SA think themselves so priviledged they cant bear others to take their positions as losers.

That is the question: why would you keep practising rugby in SA? It must go.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
16 Sept 2016, 15:26
#23
16 Sept 2016, 15:26#23
TheTraditionalist

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 152 RE: Road to nowhere
September 16, 2016, 14:37:25

Rugby does not create resources. It only consumes resources.

 

I sure hope you are wrong here


I just bought a sh!tload of gold shares this morning at 1310.48.........

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,265 posts
16 Sept 2016, 17:07
#24
16 Sept 2016, 17:07#24
I am starting to believe the traditionalist is the new finance minister of South Africa. 


TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
16 Sept 2016, 19:40
#25
16 Sept 2016, 19:40#25
 SA excellent men have been selling gold to pratise rugby. The time the gold could be shipped en masse to the IMF to get loans from them is over. Gold mines in SA are consumed and every year, depletion gets closer.
— END OF THREAD —

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