FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  Rolling the tighthead dice

Rolling the tighthead dice

Started by Mozart22 REPLIES222 VIEWS· 06 Nov 2014, 03:01
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 03:01
#1
06 Nov 2014, 03:01#1

The logic for having Coenie on the bench as tighthead cover despite his door mat history of late appears to derive from one key stat


"The stats confirm that there are only two scrums (on average) during the second half of a Test. The Boks have taken this into account with their planning and selection. Oosthuizen, as Meyer said, can make a big impact in that period with his work around the park."


Interesting, it seemed to me we had more scrums....but it explains how weak scrummagers like Malherbe and Marcel get through these tests from the bench.  And now the whole logic is memorialized in the Coenie selection.



But RWC 03 was determined by Aussie weakness in the scrums at the death. And Jannie could get hurt. I hope  we don't roll the dice too many times.


sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
06 Nov 2014, 03:19
#2
06 Nov 2014, 03:19#2
I thought with the new rules that 2 props could be included in the bench as part of the 23 match day team. It would be prudent to have at least one prop that can cover both sides of the scrum in the event of 2 injuries, or if a late replacement is required. Coenie could be a player that covers both sides of the scrum and used as an impact player. He cant scrum on either side of the scrum, do does it really matter if he comes on at loosehead or tighthead
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2014, 07:13
#3
06 Nov 2014, 07:13#3
 The weakest scrummagers we had this year was Steenkamp and Jannie du Pessis.  The inclusion fo teh second one in the team is inexplicable - since he is also a liability insofar as play outside of scrummaging is concerned.   
As SB said Coenie is a poor scrummager at this stage - so what he is doing in the team is a serious problem.   However, unlike Jannie he is useful outside of scrummaging.   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Nov 2014, 08:46
#4
06 Nov 2014, 08:46#4

I understand the logic behind this theory but in all honesty to select a player who doesn't make that much of a difference in the tight loose anyway and isn't capable of scrumming properly on either side of the scrum, is just another indication of Meyer's foolishness.

What happens if we need him to step up to the plate 4 or 5 times in the second half?

We lose the set piece and gone is any possible momentum they worked hard for.

It's absurd.

Coenie should do the right thing and go home. He's not good enough to play test rugby.


BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Nov 2014, 08:52
#5
06 Nov 2014, 08:52#5
Coenie is good enough, and offers a shartload more than Jannie in open play. Also, he is sufficient at scrum time, but only when playing at 1. Anyway, Jannie has been giving away penalties left and right recently, so I don't see how Coenie could be worse. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Nov 2014, 09:18
#6
06 Nov 2014, 09:18#6
 Am I missing something. If Jannie gets injured 5 minutes into the game is Coenie the guy we want at tighthead for the rest of the match. Based on observed form - no. Coenie is excellent outside the scrum but a risk is being taken here unless it is thought Nyankane can playtighhead.
Malherbe is a stronger scrummager than Jannie and also very good outside the scrum. A top young prop. Marcell also has correctly been selected by Meyer because he is good.Add to all this Du Toit, Kitshoff and Kebble and  and we have a great set of young props.Sorry I could add to the list Redlinghuys and Schalk van der Merwe.
Instead of playing Jannie into the ground meyer should consider usuing a guy like Redlinghuys. He has done well consistently at Super 15 level against test props.
Loodt also should be invested in and Willmese wasnt even picked - ideal lock for NH!!! Instead we have pap victor!!!!Then we have the mediocre oupa ahead of Schalk Burger!! 
But for an injury we could have had Pienaar back.
We have thrown away a lot of clout in the pack but for what? It is so disappointing to see the side knowing it could be so much better. Still one hopes we can put away Ireland. Trusting we have no bent kiwi ref like Honiss to deal with!!!!!!!!!!  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Nov 2014, 09:33
#7
06 Nov 2014, 09:33#7
 
I disagree with you Blue.

Coenie isn't in my view test material. Not as a looshead and definitely not as a tighthead.

In fact I'd go as far as to say that I wouldn't want him in my Super Rugby team either.

He's a penalty machine. The little bit of work he does in the loose is not worth his selection.

"Am I missing something. If Jannie gets injured 5 minutes into the game is Coenie the guy we want at tighthead for the rest of the match. Based on observed form - no."

Exactly ... "HELL NO" ......... 

Best tightheads we have are Marcell and Julian and as usual neither have been considered.






SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Nov 2014, 14:04
#8
06 Nov 2014, 14:04#8

You have to love Moffie's complete bullshit on this......not only has he been exposed for his wrong calls regarding Marcel and Malherbe as scrummagers, he blindly continues to follow this assertion......how stupid........Malherbe proved it against the Argies, Marcel against the AB's........but to cap it all Moffie thinks Pat Cilliers should be our tighthead.

 

And the clown expects us to take his take on tightheads seriously.

 

Malherbe and Marcel are quality young pospects at 3, we are lucky to have them.

 

Marcel should prove a better 3 than Jannie ever was and Jannie has always been solid enough.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 14:52
#9
06 Nov 2014, 14:52#9

 The old Malherbe nonsense. Try these numbers. In Pretoria with Jannie on till minute 66 we won 7 of 7 scrums. In Salta we won 2 of 6 scrums, a scrumming disaster. But Malherbe came on at minute 45, and was penalized once.

 

So at best  what did Malherbe "prove' in the two scrums we won. I recall one time the ref let it go he was lying flat on his face by the time the ball came out.

 

Neither Malherbe nor Marcel are the business and Malherbe seems very injury prone. Coenie could lose us a test if subbed on early. HM should have picked Red linghuis for this one, we desperately need to find a real tighthead to back up Jannie.

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
06 Nov 2014, 14:57
#10
06 Nov 2014, 14:57#10
Winning scrum stats can often be misleading. It doesn't tell you how many resets, how many scrums were under pressure or the conditions we scrummed in 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 15:28
#11
06 Nov 2014, 15:28#11

Here we have all the scrums at Salta. Jannie had a huge issue and the whole scrum was shunted backwards. Now lets look at Malherbe.  Four scrums....not once did we stay straight on the tighthead side....let alone getting right shoulder.

 

Minute 50.00 Malherbe pushed back and wheeled. 

 

Minute  63.14  Numerous collapses on Malherbe's side...ref awards penalty for Malherbe cracking inwards and down

 

Minute 72.00 Malherbe's side down again....but ref lets play go on.

 

Minute  80.59....against two Bargie sub props now.....Boks go forward on the Beast's side, Malherbe wheels.

 

 

So much has been written about Malherbe's performance in these four scrums, you would swear he was huge. But he kept his feet in two of the four, and was wheeled in both those. He gave away one penalty. And he was pushing against Ayerza with 50 minutes in his legs and an inferior sub in the last scrum.

 

Pure hype

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vauIvW_Vvk

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Nov 2014, 15:33
#12
06 Nov 2014, 15:33#12
 
Same as many other stats.

It doesn't give you the whole picture.

I've tried to explain it to Mike and Mozart but they're set in their ways.

Stats are for those who don't have an argument. Besides that, Mozart is famous for fabricating his own stats ... all depending on what tall tale he wants to spin you.






MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 15:40
#13
06 Nov 2014, 15:40#13

Nobody has ever demonstrated one statistical error I have deliberately made. But because often I debunk things people accept about players....they think I'm bending the data. Take the Adi Jacobs defence stats you didn't believe BB....they are absolutely accurate, but contradicted your views on Jacob's defence. So your first reaction was to question my source.

 

Look if you don't believe the Malherbe assessment.....watch the video from game minute 45 onwards. It's all there for the honest observer to see.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Nov 2014, 15:51
#14
06 Nov 2014, 15:51#14
Moz do you honestly think Jannie is the player to take to the world cup next year? Also, how do you rate his play outside of the scrums? 
We have so little time left as it is, and we absolutely have to give the up and coming guys game time. Even if Jannie regains form, which I can't see happening, what do we do if he gets injured? 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 16:31
#15
06 Nov 2014, 16:31#15
I agree. But we have to be critical about the possible replacements.....how does it help to delude ourselves that Malherbe is the man, when he has so much to prove.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Nov 2014, 16:31
#16
06 Nov 2014, 16:31#16

Only you could find favour in our scrum taking an absolute beating against the Argies with Steenkamp and Jannie on board and when the ship gets steadied by the inclusion of Malherbe you find fault in him.

 

Pathetic prejudice and blind ignorance

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2014, 16:38
#17
06 Nov 2014, 16:38#17
 One wonders who is the biggest fool on thiss ite when it comnes to player evaluation.   I have looked at various instances and the fact is that it can only be Mozart.
The fiool has the audacity to post videos on the site and then interpreted the outcome in an unbelievable way.   Take the lastest video's about the scrumming in teh Argentina test.   The scrumming of the Springboks up to minute 45 was an outright disaster - with the scrums disintegrating constantly at s reserve speed i have never seen in Springbok rugby before in my life.   
Malherbe came on and the first scrum was at minute 50.   "Malherbe pushed back and wheeled. "   That was BS - the scrum was stable and may have gone back about half a meter on his side - there was no wheeling.
Minute 63.14 onwards.   "Numerous collapses on Malherbe's side...ref awards penalty for Malherbe cracking inwards and down."  From that one would swear that Malherbe ws the cause of the scrum going down repeatedly.  If one look at the scrums carefully - the player that went down was the Argentine prop - he was on his face on the ground - Malherbe was bent own because of it.  Whjhat happened inthe final scrum - a chance call was made by the referee and it went the Argentine way because Malherbe lost his bind in the process not for going down.
Minute 72.00.  " Malherbe's side down again....but ref lets play go on."   It was ckear as daylight that the going down was caused by the Argentine player in this case and the referee allowed the game to go on a- otherwise he would have penalized Malherbe if he was the cause of the scrum going down.   
Minute  80.59...."against two Bargie sub props now.....Boks go forward on the Beast's side, Malherbe wheels."   Absolute BS - how can a scrum go forward and a player in teh scrum going gforward is blamed for wheeling?
This si a case where one can only take it that bias and disike played a major role in interpretation.   If it was a single case where ithappened - but with Mozart it is routine.  When his favoured   a player he would exconerate the playr from any mistakes made blaming other players for the resultant mess.   
Mozart's descriptions of what happens during games is so unbeleivable it is not even unny.     


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2014, 17:23
#18
06 Nov 2014, 17:23#18
No need to take your biased word for it Oupa....the clip is right there for everybody to make up their own minds.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2014, 18:07
#19
06 Nov 2014, 18:07#19
 Mozart
No need to take your biased word for it Mozart -the clip is right there for everybody to see what BS you wrote and make up their own minds.
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
06 Nov 2014, 19:16
#20
06 Nov 2014, 19:16#20

I have not seen the stats, but lets assume Meyers claim that there are less scrums towards the end of the game is correct and this is why he selected Coenie.

The opposition can easily turn this stat around by selecting a scrum from most of the  penalties in the red zone and if the inferior Bok front row keeps on collapsing, it can easily result in a penalty try. 

My 2 tightheads for the tour would have been Redelinghuys and Dreyer and not Marcel vd Merwe who is not bad, but lacks that killer instinct. Coenie should first prove his value again in the Super rugby next year.


BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
06 Nov 2014, 19:23
#21
06 Nov 2014, 19:23#21

Here is a winning recipe for Meyer next year:


Loosehead: Schalk van der Merwe

Hooker: Akker van der Merwe

Tighthead: Marcel van der Merwe 


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Nov 2014, 22:28
#22
06 Nov 2014, 22:28#22
Malherbe was clearly a lot better than Jannie. The Argentina prop should have been penalised for collapsing the one scrum reset. The one penalty was very 50/50.Malherbe showed clearly in the clip he was better than Jannie.
 Malherbe, a young prop, will be better than Jannie ever was. Meyer is correct to have singled him out for inclusion in the Boks at such a young age for a prop.
Please read my post "Meyer back to mad scientist" where Tank L anning a former WP prop discusses Coenie Malherbe etc.

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
06 Nov 2014, 22:47
#23
06 Nov 2014, 22:47#23
 
Blikkies

Here is a winning recipe for Meyer next year:


Loosehead: Schalk van der Merwe

Hooker: Akker van der Merwe

Tighthead: Marcel van der Merwe 



& this is an unbiased selection from, Blikkies van der Merwe

— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news