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Rugby brain Mallet and Beeno on the same page

Started by Beeno122 REPLIES424 VIEWS· 15 Jul 2014, 22:17
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Jul 2014, 22:17
#1
15 Jul 2014, 22:17#1

Noone of course will be surprised! while halfwits think iur palying style isa huge problem Mallet and Beeno finger a big problem.

Ex Supersport


Nick Mallett was on point on Saturday night after the brutal Stormers-Sharks game when he laid it down thick, saying South African teams had underperformed this year.

After all, while each coach has a laundry list of excuses why the competition hasn’t gone their way, it will never be acceptable to see four of the South African franchises in the bottom half of the competition.

But we’d better get used to it folks because, if things carry on like they do, it will only get worse before it gets better.

Let’s be honest here. Vodacom Super Rugby simply isn’t working for us at the moment. The travel factor and length of the competition has only served up more injuries and, coupled with the massive exodus of players to foreign shores, we’re left with young and inexperienced teams taking on the best in the antipodes.

Heyneke Meyer, when he was coaching the Bulls, used to have a theory that success in Super Rugby can be quantified. Other than a decent game plan that is executed properly you need to have eight to 10 Springboks and at least three game-breakers in your squad.

Couple that with players with 50 Super Rugby caps and more and you’re halfway there.

Then, as with the current competition, win all your home games, one game on tour and at least one away derby and that will give you nine wins – enough to make the playoffs of the competition.

Of course it isn’t as simple as that, but we’re in a uniquely difficult situation in rugby in South Africa at the moment.

We like to compare ourselves to Australia and New Zealand in terms of strength, and yes we have the numbers and the talent, but we have one major disadvantage – The rand.

Only once rugby is a truly global season – and that’s not going to happen anytime soon – will we be able to compete on an even foot again. So until Japan and European leagues put a cap on the amount of foreigners that can be signed, we’re going to continue to see the best talent of our shores go overseas.

A while back I asked the question in a column if we were at the tipping point. Well, clearly now we’re long past that, and it will be virtually impossible to reverse.

We can’t compare ourselves to New Zealand. They have a central contracting system, meaning they can manage their players better, they can give sabbaticals and they can get the best out of them.

And when the overseas offers come, the most they can make is double their salary.

Think about that for a moment.

One Euro buys 1.54 New Zealand dollars (or so my Google search tells me). So any big money offer is one-and-a-half times what your salary is here.

Compare that to the situation of Paul Willemse, who was offered 6-7 times his current salary. When you’re earning around R800 000, and someone offers you R5-million (if the talk is to be believed), how many of us would say no. (PLEASE NOTE OAKS)

Then there is the ever growing threat of the Celtic nations, who are signing young players to play for Scotland and Ireland - CJ Stander, Daniel Poolman, WP Nel and Anton Bresler, to name a few.

Not only do these players get paid in pounds (18:1) and earn some really decent money, but the national unions include a clause that if they complete their careers there, they get a tax break and have all their tax given back to them.

Not only do you get heaps of cash, but when you leave, your tax is refunded.

Who would say no to that.

Of course the South African Rugby Union should use their mandate at the International Rugby Board to try and stop this, but until they do, more and more players will head overseas. (HANG ON ARE YOU EXPECTING THAT HALFWIT HOSKINS TO DO SOMETHING?)

The Boks, in the meantime, are doing a juggling act, with a success-hungry public wanting results, and a Bok coach whose job is constantly on the line. No wonder Heyneke Meyer chooses his best available squad, even if they are from overseas. (PLEASE NOTE OAKS)

Ignoring them or banning overseas players will simply weaken Bok rugby immediately, and it won’t stop players from leaving.

All this of course leads back to under-performing Super Rugby teams, franchises weakened by 300 odd players overseas (PLEASE NOTE OAKS). And it isn’t always the stars, but those fringe players, those players who are able to fill the gap when the injuries come, that hurt the most.

Despite all of this, administrators in South Africa still continue as if it is business as usual and haven’t looked at novel ways of countering the trend.

So while we may all lament the performances of our sides – and yes we have under-performed this year in Super Rugby – the long-term trends are even more worrying.

No other rugby nation in world rugby is being targeted like South Africa is right now.(PLEASE NOTE OAKS. SEEMS ONLY THE VERY ASTUTE BEENO KNOWS THERE IS A CRISES!!)

While a weak rand brings in more cash to SARU and the franchises through the Sanzar deal, it does little to help keep players here.

If football is a key, players will go where the money goes. It’s that simple.

So brace yourself folks, it’s going to be a very bumpy ride ahead.

It’s going to get worse before it gets better.


ALL OF WHICH YOU HAVE HEARD FROM BEENO LONG AGO. 

Beeno with his finger firmly on the pulse. Seeing the bigger picture and noting the trends.



sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
15 Jul 2014, 23:58
#2
15 Jul 2014, 23:58#2
The Exodus is a significant factor in our teams performances in 2014, but it is not the only factor. Travel is harder but again just one factor.
Austalia for example, if they had a player exodus of what the Boks have in recent years, then they would struggle much more than SA teams. They would be pulling players from the local pub down the road.
In South Africa we have lost of depth, but only in certain positions.
We have unlimited riches in locks and flanks, lots of quality hookers, lots of decent props and  lots of scrumhalfs. 
We have depth issues with positions like flyhalf especially, but also positions like inside centre. While they have skills, the ones that are world class are few and far between. 
In Super Rugby history our backlines have allways scored less tries than OZ/NZ teams with the same amount of possession. Our flyhalfs and centres struggle to get the backline running and scoring tries unless our forwards smash their forwards into submission.
New Zealand have a conveyor belt of flyhalfs and usually lots of depth at inside center. 
We have forward packs that over the years could have had more teams in the top 6, but our inside backs do not make more of the possession.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Jul 2014, 00:40
#3
16 Jul 2014, 00:40#3
 SB , I think we also strugle at scrumhalf lately. Can't really think of a real quality 9 since Fourie Dupree. We are Ok at 12, but 13 seems to be a problem since Jacque left. 10 Seems to be our biggest problem in the long run with only Lem and Stransky the exceptions in the last 20 years. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
16 Jul 2014, 02:18
#4
16 Jul 2014, 02:18#4
Yes Draad hard to isolate to just certain positions in the backline, it is perhaps more how they combine as a unit. The inside backs have to take most of the blame though. The Scrumhalfs can at least pass, some of the centres at SuperXV level lack basic passing skills, offloading skills and running lines. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Jul 2014, 21:18
#5
16 Jul 2014, 21:18#5
 Bring back the over 300 pros playing overseas and the 49 Bok was it and i doubt we will ahve any problems in any position. But there are many problems.
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
16 Jul 2014, 21:45
#6
16 Jul 2014, 21:45#6
 DbDraad......where oh where were you in the Honeyball period.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Jul 2014, 21:48
#7
16 Jul 2014, 21:48#7
AJ you really shouldn't open strings with "brain" in the title. They don't apply.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
17 Jul 2014, 15:19
#8
17 Jul 2014, 15:19#8
 I don't know if he's a rugby brain, he probably is, but what is very clear is that he has no idea about economy.

"We can’t compare ourselves to New Zealand. They have a central contracting system, meaning they can manage their players better, they can give sabbaticals and they can get the best out of them.

And when the overseas offers come, the most they can make is double their salary."
(why? the overseas offers can double or can triple or can be 4 times.... their, supose it's NZ, salary. The offers have nothing to do with the exchange rate, they depend on the amount of money the offerer have, nothing else)

"One Euro buys 1.54 New Zealand dollars. So any big money offer is one-and-a-half times what your salary is here." (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 
(when he says here I suppose that it's in SA. So what the hell has to do the euro-NZ dollar exchange rate with the salary in SA?)

"Compare that to the situation of Paul Willemse, who was offered 6-7 times his current salary. When you’re earning around R800 000, and someone offers you R5-million (if the talk is to be believed), how many of us would say no. (PLEASE NOTE OAKS)"

All of this has no sense at all. The european clubs make similar offers in euros to both the SA and the NZ players. If they have similar salaries, let's say that Tuipulotu has a contract of 80.000$ (which is R800.000 at the current exchange rate of 1:10)  a 330.000€ offer (R5-million) supose the same for both.

IMO it's a mistake not want to see what NZ is doing because they are beeing successful retaining players (not all but the majority of them) for their clubs and for the AB. Yes, they have a central contracting system but SARU could also implement it.
Something that works in NZ don't have to work necesarily in SA.... but it could work and banning overseas players have been very successful for the kiwis
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
17 Jul 2014, 15:30
#9
17 Jul 2014, 15:30#9

ABasquefan: your points make perfect sense. The lack of logic in the argument put forward by this bloke Mullet make me suspicious -- is Mullet Beeno?  A painful question but one which must be asked.

 

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Jul 2014, 16:05
#10
17 Jul 2014, 16:05#10
 My oh my what have we here. Yes of course nz players can earn more playing overseas. But because our currency is much weaker that nz our players get far more of  boost. I new zealand dollar buys 9.30 rands.So a pound is worth roughly two new zealand dollars and 18.60 rands.
Now we have a problem for the kbbs to solve. How much of an increase will kiws get for palying in the UK. For our player its 8 times bigger according to Mallet. 
Now while there is nothing SARFU can do to change the exchange rate they could if they had the nous and the will implement a central contracting system for sure - as i have repeatedly called for .
Beeno slowly leading the kbbs through some elementary issues! 


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
17 Jul 2014, 16:37
#11
17 Jul 2014, 16:37#11
 @beeno,
"But because our currency is much weaker that nz our players get far more of  boost."

This is all your argument and it's false. If I well understood you mean that the SA players get more money (boost) because the rand is weaker. And that's completely wrong.
If 2 players, one from SA and the other from NZ, get a contract of 100.000€ they both earn exactly the same money, 100.000€. Saying other thing is absurd.
Other issue is that those 100.000€ would be, more or less, 1,5 million rand for the saffa and 150.000$ for the kiwi but these amounts keep on representing the same because the cost of living mantain the same disparity (1:10).
If a bread cost R10 (and I don't care what is exactly the cost, this is only an example) in SA it will cost 1$ in NZ so you can buy the same things with R1,5 million  in SA than with 150.000$ in NZ (unless there are inflation problems but that's another story and counts more for the future).

"Now we have a problem for the kbbs to solve. How much of an increase will kiws get for palying in the UK. For our player its 8 times bigger according to Mallet."

8 times bigger????????? from where the hell does Mallet obtain it?
Again, The offers have nothing to do with the exchange rate, they depend on the amount of money the offerer have, nothing else


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
17 Jul 2014, 16:59
#12
17 Jul 2014, 16:59#12
 The one thing that you our clever friend is loosing site of is the fact that the SA player who goes abroad earns more than his SA counterpart because of the R/€ and/or R/£ rate. Bryan Habana is earning 50,000 € per month. That is ZAR 910,000 per month. That is not including any endorsements. Now, I am by no means saying that every SA player earns that abroad but I am sure that you are getting the idea. There is no way in hell that he would earn that amount of money in SA and that is where the problem for SA lies. If the SA currency was on the same levels where it was a few years ago, the €50K per month would have been around R550K per month. Can you spot the difference? It doesn't matter what his NZ counterpart is earning.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
17 Jul 2014, 18:02
#13
17 Jul 2014, 18:02#13
 @ceradyne,
"the SA player who goes abroad earns more than his SA counterpart because of the R/€ and/or R/£ rate."
That's completely false. It has nothing to do with the exchange rate. Nothing. That's because in the NH the TV pays a lot more and therefore the clubs have a lot more money to offer. If each club in the NH receives let's say 1 million € for their tv contract, the SA and NZ teams receive 10 times less, 100.000€, or even less but the SA and the Nz sides receive exactly the same money, 100.000€ or whatever. So this problem is exactly the same for NZ, they have to face the same problem.

All that you said can be said for a NZ player:

"René Ranger is earning 50.000€ (I don't think there will be a significant difference btwin him and Habana) per month. That is 75.000$ per month. That is not including any endorsements. Now, I am by no means saying that every NZ player earns that abroad but I am sure that you are getting the idea. There is no way in hell that he would earn that amount of money in NZ and that is where the problem for NZ lies."

And that was my point, having NZ the same problem they have solved it successfully through the central contract system and banning the overseas players.

"If the SA currency was on the same levels where it was a few years ago, the €50K per month would have been around R550K per month."

Here is where the inflation enters but if the inflation rate has been in the same or similar proportion as the exchange rate (it's what usually happens) in Europe and in SA there would be no difference.

"you our clever friend"

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
17 Jul 2014, 19:00
#14
17 Jul 2014, 19:00#14
 If it has nothing to do with the exchange rate, then HTF can Habana earn R900K per month and no other South African player can get the same. Better still. Would Habana have moved to France if he could earn R990K per month in SA? Even in France that is a heck of a lot of money and there is no way that he will not eventually return to SA with much more money in the bank than any player who stayed behind in SA. That is the problem. It is so lucrative that even the youngsters are running over. I have said it many times. If a player has a contract in his back pocket that is linked to a guaranteed salary of (let's say) €25,000 per month, how will he stay behind for the possibility of maybe coming into contention to play a few tests per year  for the Boks.

Add to that the fact that, for a white player in particular, there might be a chance that he might even be good enough to earn a spot in a franchise/union team but have stand aside because of the colour of his skin. As it is, the playing opportunities for many youngsters are getting less and less for those guys.

You can try and paint it any way you like.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
17 Jul 2014, 19:16
#15
17 Jul 2014, 19:16#15
Abasque,
You make a lot of macro-economic assumptions that simply are not true. To say that you can buy the same things in NZ as in SA with the same amount of money when factoring in exchange rates is simply not true.
Consumer prices in Auckland, NZ are 130% higher than Cape Town, SA. So if you're living on R26000 a month in Cape Town it would take almost R60000 a month in New Zealand to maintain the same standard of living. So if a SA player and a NZ player are offered the same amount of foreign money, it means a helluva lot more to the SA player in real world purchasing power and affluence than it does to the NZ player in their home country.
What hasn't been brought up is the disparity between what a domestic NZ rugby player gets paid and a domestic SA rugby player. I don't have any information on that, but for arguments sake it is practical to assume that their respective teams would pay them an amount so they could maintain similar standard of living in their respective countries. This would mean the domestic SA player gets around 40% of the salary of a domestic NZ player when exchange rate is considered. I would wager that the actual percentage is much lower if we had real salary information to compare.
So if a player in SA making 40% the salary of a NZ player, is offered the same foreign contract that translates to 130% more real life buying power in his home country it is easy to see how there is absolutely no comparison.
Holding Springbok honors to only domestic players would do nothing to stem the flow of the borderline Springboks / very good Super Rugby players which is what is really hurting our teams.

AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
17 Jul 2014, 19:36
#16
17 Jul 2014, 19:36#16
 And again,....
the same that you are saying for Habana applies for Ranger, Gear and the other AB that left NZ:
no other NZ player playing in NZ can get the same, nor get even close. The difference btwin the money earned by the SA players in Europe (Habana and others) and in SA is more or less the same as the Nz players playing in Europe (Ranger and others) and in NZ.
So it cannot be because of the exchange rate since NZ and SA have very different ones. It's simply because the NH clubs have more money from their TV contract than the SH clubs (put this money in €, rands, $ or yuans, as you want, but the same for both if you want to compare), nothing else.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
17 Jul 2014, 21:05
#17
17 Jul 2014, 21:05#17
Abasuefan, to apply a practical example. 
How many holidays have been you been on? 
Have you ever been to a place like Amsterdam in the summer time? The rent is like 100 euros per night for a very average single room! 
Now go on holiday to a place like Morroco which is on the tip of Africa and near the tip of Europe. 
You could rent a holiday accommodation for 30 euros per night. The room/accomodation is twice as good as what you could get in Amsterdam but also much cheaper. Food is also much much cheaper in Morroco than in Amsterdam. 
So the cost of living is basically much lower in Morroco than what it is for Amsterdam.Both are popular holiday destinations, but you can get much more for your Euros when in Morroco. It will work out less expensive because the cost of living is cheaper in Morroco than France.
It is about real value. Going on holiday to a country with a weaker exchange rate is allways great value for money. 
So as long as the player returns to South Africa with a massive savings from playing overseas they can be millionaires. 
Euros are worth much more in South Africa than in France, but Euros are only worth a little more than in New Zealand. 
This is why it is less beneficial for players from OZ/NZ to play in Europe. They cant convert their savings into a weaker currency and benefit from the lower cost of living. 
Let;s look at a 2 scenarios.
Player A - New Zealand Super XV player earns say 1 Million NZ Dollars per year.Player B- South African Super XV earns 10 million per rand year.
Lets say the current NZ Dollar/ SA Rand exchange rate was 1 Dollar to 10 Rand.Then basically the players are earning the same amount.The real value is probably not that much different because  they are both earning, spending and saving within the country where they are earning the money. 
--
However lets say both players A and B go and play in Amsterdam, or even France..They are both paid 5 Million Euros per year. They both stay in Europe for 7 years.When they retire Player A moves back to New Zealand, and player a moves back to South Africa.  
Player A converts his currency in New Zealand dollars and make some good profit due to the exchange rate.
Player B converts his currency into Rands, and makes a massive profit. 
Who is going to be richer? I assure you the South African players money is going to be worth much more in real buying power than the New Zealanders player. 
The South Africa player may never have to work again especially if they buy some smart investments like land, property etc.
--However if both players moved to New Zealand or even just stayed in France when they retire, the value of their money will be the same.
-It is simple economics of buying and selling in the global market.
Countries with weaker currencies like India and China it is easier for them to "sell/export services and products" but harder to buy products, and vice versa for strong er currencies.
The weaker the rand becomes the more lucrative it is for a player when they retire because they can convert a weak strong currency to a weak currency. 
Bud, try go on holiday with euros or pounds to a country with a weaker currency and see how far the money goes on most items that you purchase. Your Euros will be worth much more than what they are in France. 
This makes me think that might not have taken many holidays outside of Europe. 
In summary some of the salaries offered in Japan and France are higher than what are offered in OZ, NZ and SA. 
However the big win is converting the euro. The weaker the currency being converted to, the more exponentially the buying power value increases.
This is why South African players stand to gain the most by converting a very strong currency into a currency that continues to get weaker. It is actually beneficial for players overseas that the rand gets weaker and weaker.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Jul 2014, 23:47
#18
17 Jul 2014, 23:47#18
Is ab ass a product of the nz schooling system. Hahahhahahaha my sincere thanks Oimatey and Sharkbok for your valiant attempt in trying to educate the oak. I mean really!! 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Jul 2014, 23:55
#19
17 Jul 2014, 23:55#19
 Dont let ab ass out of the 
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
18 Jul 2014, 02:39
#20
18 Jul 2014, 02:39#20
  @oimatey,
for sure I made a lot of assumptions, it was just to explain more clearly my point. I didn't know the stat that you mentioned about the consumer price rate btwin Cape Town and Auckland which is very relevant but cannot be the only one to take into account when comparing both countries and salaries..
If you want to make an exhaustive account you should enter not only this stat but many others which is very complicated and not worthy for this forum discussion.
Another easiest way is simply comparing how much the best paid SA player (or an average of all the players) earns in Europe and in SA and on the other hand how much the best paid NZ player (or an average of all the players) earns in Europe and in NZ. But I don't have this stats neither....

Anyway, my main point remains the same: the SA and NZ players receive offers that represent 2,3 or 4 times their salaries in their countries (even if the SA are somehow higher) which represent a big problem for both the NZRU and SARU (probably bigger for the SARU). But while the NZRU has taken correctivve measures, the SARU has made nothing. And what have no sense is to refuse to even consider the succesful measures taken in NZ, at least for studying them, because of the exchange rate of the rand, as many say here.

@sharkbok,
but all that you are saying doesn't depend on the exchange rate. With 1 € I can buy 136 japan yens but Tokyo is a lot more expensive than where I live in Europe

@beeno,
how old are you, man?
grow up a little bit
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
18 Jul 2014, 03:53
#21
18 Jul 2014, 03:53#21
@ABasquefan----""sharkbok,but all that you are saying doesn't depend on the exchange rate. With 1€ I can buy 136 japan yens but Tokyo is a lot more expensive than where I live in"" Europe
Have you ever lived in a foreign country earning the average wage?- eg. 40,000 Euros per year: it is easy to spend, and never save any money).
However when you are earning massive amounts every month like Toulon players and other top french clubs- it is easy to save. They are earning more than the average year salary in like 2 weeks- for the average wage of employees in Europe!
South African players will leave France with millions of Euros saved up. When the return to SA, they convert this to SA Rands and they are very, very rich. 
The New Zealanders & Ozzies who convert millions of saved Euros to NZ.OZ dollars do not benefit nearly so much from the Exchange rate because their currency exchange rate is minimal.
It is not about the cost of living when "in" France, it about "converting savings" to when going to live in a weak currency country
I think that you should concede the point, their is no way that you cannot still understand this. 
Otherwise, I think you need to get off your arse from the Basque country in France- stop watching SuperXV for a while, and go for some holidays across the world, 
or even go work outside of europe to gain a grasp of the world economy. No offence, but you are not seeing what seems obvious for many people.
P.s- the Author of the article is Nick Mallett. He lived in France for many years and coached his French club to be French national champions a few times. He was also the Italian coach,
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Jul 2014, 10:53
#22
18 Jul 2014, 10:53#22
 My sincere compliments to Oimatey, Sharkbok and very surprisingly ou cerudunce windpomp (CW)
As one who has striven with all diligence to educate the kkbs in matters pertaining to rugby you can now appreciate the extent of the challenge having attempted to educate ou ab ass in matters pertaining to finance. 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
18 Jul 2014, 11:10
#23
18 Jul 2014, 11:10#23
 Whoever said "beeno?" and "brain" dont belong in the same sentence is correct of course .A "beeno" "football brain ' would be a small ,oval leathery object thats  been kicked too many times .And fingering something sounds a bit rude .
— END OF THREAD —

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