Rugby24 speculates about Fransie at Bok 10

Dominic Valentine - Sport24Durban - Sharks backline player Francois Steyn's role at flyhalf could be his best chance of breaking back into the Springbok starting line-up.

In the wake of the Sharks 37-23 victory over the Lions at Kings Park in Durban, Sharks director of rugby Jake White hinted strongly that the Springbok selectors would be forced to stand up and take notice of Steyn’s eye-opening performance.

"I think he was fantastic," White said afterwards.

"He got told just before kick-off he's going to be at 10 and again he just showed how good he is.

"I'm sure it's pleasing for the South African selectors as well," White said.

Stepping into the flyhalf jersey at the eleventh hour after Patrick Lambie had to withdraw from the match due to tick-bite fever, Steyn kicked seven out of nine goalable kicks with his siege-cannon boot, to claim a personal tally of 17 points, which proved decisive in the match’s outcome.

The performance went some way to dispelling the notion that he is a just a long-distance specialist from the kicking-tee.

As it currently stands, Steyn would find it difficult to break into the Springbok starting line-up in the two positions in which most feel he is strongest: inside centre and fullback.

At inside centre, the position where Steyn was part of a World Cup winning Springbok team in 2007, it is hard to imagine Steyn displacing Springbok captain, and SARU’s 2013 player of the year Jean de Villiers, currently in some of the best form of his life.

It is equally unlikely that Steyn would easily unseat the Springbok fullback incumbent Willie le Roux, who dazzled South African fans with his X-factor in 2013 on his way to claiming the SARU player’s player-of-the-year award, in the position where Steyn excelled in the Springboks’ victory over the British and Irish Lions in 2009.

It is also highly doubtful that Steyn would start for the Springboks at outside centre, a position that he has rarely occupied at Super Rugby and Currie Cup level.

Steyn could again find himself collecting splinters on the Springbok bench in the role of utility back again come the Rugby Championship, despite his strong form, unless he can make his presence felt in Lambie’s absence at flyhalf.

The flyhalf position under Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has been more hotly-contested than others, with Morné Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen and Elton Jantjies all occupying the role at various times during Meyer’s reign.
 
Steyn played flyhalf for the Sharks during his debut season and at the time confessed that No 10, a position he had also played in at Grey College during his schoolboy years, was his preferred jersey.

Although Steyn initially struggled in the position in 2006 and 2007 when he was picked at flyhalf for the Sharks and occasionally for the Springboks, he has gained a lot of experience under his belt now and continues to show his versatility.

If Lambie is suffering from tick-bite fever he might struggle to be ready for the Sharks this coming weekend, and whilst it would be wildly premature to hail Steyn as front-runner for the Springbok flyhalf berth after one performance, a strong showing against current Wallaby flyhalf Quade Cooper in the Sharks’ match against the Reds would certainly provide the Springbok selectors with food for thought.

Jean must be replaced by Frans, there is no reason to hang on to him anymore. In fact, he should have been replaced a very long time ago. His leadership did the job in Meyer's first two years, but even here we have much better leadership in Strauss.

Also, Willie provided nothing of the sort at fullback. His best showings were all on the wing. At fullback the most we saw was a litany of errors and the chip over the top. Neither player should be fullback.

In 2006 and 2007 Steyn played predominantly at fullback or wing. His first test at 10 being June 2008 against Italy, ultimately an underwhelming flop where Frans and Kankowski failed to deliver on the hype. In fact, that was his one and only start at 10 and I cannot recall him ever playi ng 10 again. He also had a flop for the Barbarians against Australia in 2008, similarly to the Lambie flop last year, he was in a star studded team.

When all is said and done he is a 12, all his best performances were at 12 and he offers far more at 12. That we laud him so highly for the Sharks says more about how average Lambie really is more than it does about Frans' natural ability at 10. He was no better than anything I have seen from Morné and was not better than JLP. He did a good job, not a great one. The only real advantage playing Frans at 10 for the Boks is his bone crunching defence and Albert's style ball carries. Essentially playing the role of a more limited 12 at 10. If this was 2000-2003 or 2005-2006 I wouldn't have a problem with the call, but we have better 10s. It would be more akin to going back to the days of Van Straaten than to any kind of running rugby in my opinion. And all this to try and solve a problem that doesn't exist.

We don't have trouble at 10, we have it at centre. Why is the media not drawing attention to the fact that we have yet to find a world class 13 in nearly ten years! It says it all, it doesn't even dawn on South Africans to even consider what a centre does much less whether we have them or if we use them. We finally have a complete 12 and we stuff him elsewhere time and again. Had Nonu been South African he would probably be an 8, Carter dropped and lambasted for his iffy boot, Dagg the next best thing at 10, Weepu a crash-balling centre. We waste the talent we have. Quite frankly, we don't deserve the players we have.

 If Saturdays game is going to be the normal what Steyn produces in all-round play - his selection at 10 would be a disaster.    His goal kicking was 100%  - the rest of his game nowhere near even 60% acceptable.   Too many errors and too often doing the wrong thing or the right thing poorly - is not the answer at 10.
So happy daydreaming to the delirious two.
I wonder who the c omplete 12 is - De Allende? 

 Sure perfectly happy with the bench player from Stade Francais.   What a joke!!!
Steyn meets the physical requirements - but everything else - other than goalkicking - is absent in his make up.  

Michael, did you not note the length of some of Frans' passes? You state he only kicks, but his passes are very good.

It's true Moz, he does fit the bill physically and in the short term will probably give us a tactical edge, in the short term. His skills are there, but I'm coming from the point of view of a 12. Jean's distribution is not good, and he does not have the sense to pass when he ought to. This is a wingers instinct that has neve r left him. So too the intercept, his chief weapon! Over the years he has improved the effectiveness of his carries somewhat by leading with his head as he goes into contact, but I dispute that he does not offer the threat of a break as often as you infer. His carries are significantly weaker than that of Frans who routinely draws 2 to 3 defenders at a time for fear of ploughing through the defence like a runaway freight-train. that threat alone creates space, creates doubt. Here we see Jake already using it to free up his Mvovo and Jordaan. That's where space is created, the centres, and that is what Frans does! Then he offers the offload, the only centre that we have that can offload consistently in contact. Essentially you have a player that you have to mark heavily, yet you cannot afford to ignore the players around him for fear of the offload or if he is a decoy. He is an over-powered Nonu with hands and a boot.

What you propose can work, I'm not disputing your rationale, I just feel he is better suited to 12 and we can bring more balance to the team that way. In 2012 Frans was lambasted because the Boks played a very limited gameplan that revolved around 9, i.e., 9-8, 9-7, 9-6. That was all we did while he was with the Boks. And then we open up a bit more in 2013 by giving the backs more ball and Jean is credited with things he did not do. He was not at all the focal point of the attacking brand. His lack of leadership at Ellis Park was worrying. As much as I rate Strauss as our best hooker, I would be much happier with Bissie at 2 and captain with Frans at 12.

But all of this is just hot air until we see what Meyer does.

first off, this kind of rubbish talk is the norm, the flavour of the week is fran at 10, so lets roll with it. lazy journalism at its best.

the reality and rugby math is simple, fran plays one game at 10 (in God knows how long), against the lions who while impressive in their first two games, are still good favourites to take out the woodenspoon.

and now there is talk about how fran should be the Boks 10??? o_O
sigh,
i can only hope that fran is 10 when the All Blacks come a knocking in the RC/4nats, cos i would like our Bok domination to continue.

regardless of what the pro fran at 10 mob say, meyer will most likely roll with morne again.

and the masses here who havent fallen for the fran at 10 fairytale, will still be looking at lambie and goosen as the real 10 contenders.
FYI lambie gets my pick.

@mozter,
why not edit ur thread so as the whole thread can fit into the format???

 Sun Tzu
If wide passes is accurate - fine - but none of the wide passes thrown on Saturday was remotely near to accurate.  Wide passes going astray is one of the worst things that can happen in tests.   
Sasue
You are 100% correct in your assessment.   No serious coach would consider Steyn as a 10 - and Morne is still Meyer's blue-eyed boy - even if he fails to be the starting flyhalf for Stade Francais.   So we will keep on losing matches we should win.    

 "Morne is still Meyer's blue-eyed boy"

The same blue-eyed boy that was dropped to give Lambie an entire EOYT to prove himself? Or dropped to show the world how over-hyped Goosen was? Sure, that's real bias right there *rolls eyes*

I don't want you to get too excited Sushi, but perhaps you can teach me something. I tried the edit function and can't get my changes to "stick"....is there a better way?

 Fransie's best games for the Boks was at 15. He is a good 12, but Jean is better and the incumbent. He was a desaster at 10, but might do better given another opportunity. If Morne must be replaced, I would rather go with Boshoff.  Lambie is already a utility back. Sorry. Goosen?  Who knows?  Willie at 15?  Brilliant with far too many brainfarts and a weak defense, even worse than JJ's.

 PS, Card/Aristocrat,  how long are you gonna keep up the charade? 

I disagree about Willie's defence being worse than JJ. He can make some spectacular open field tackles. JJ can only cling on and hope for help. But Willie is guilty of often overrunning the tackler. Willie has a potent bag of tricks, but I suspect the ABs and Oz are already working on how they can turn all those chip kicks to their advantage. He may suffer from second year syndrome.

 Moz, I won't vouch for the stats, but IIRC Willie missed 5 or 6 out of 6  tackle attemts in our home test against NZ last year. I'm quite sure he can improve on that. Agreed on the bag of tricks, hence my brilliance comment. I think coaching can improve him drastically,  but he isn't the finished product by far.

 Frans is statistically inferior to Willie, Kirchner, Aplon, Lambie, Monty and Jantjes at fullback. Only surpasses Morné's efforts in 2011.

@mozter,

"I don't want you to get too excited Sushi, but perhaps you can teach me something. I tried the edit function and can't get my changes to "stick"....is there a better way?"

i dont know why u would think i would get excited, educating my saffa brothers is why sarugby.com recruited me into the site, LMFAO,

but regarding ur article, why dont u try copying the thread and pasting onto another format, like office or sticky notes.
then recopy what u pasted, and paste it.

ur thread wont bother anyone with adblock, but might effect others who are at work and should be working, lolz,

Dim Tzu
The problem is not that Steyn is statistically inferior at full back - he is statistically weaker at center too.   The problem is his tendency to rush headlong into the first defender and then the tendency to lose possession - give away penalties - miss tackles, etc.   He has in most respects the weakest statitics of any SA 12 this year. 
I accept that 
*  Steyn  played one game at flyhalf;*  De Allende played one game on the wing;*  And Venter played 4 games as against the 3 of the other three centers
The issue here is that evaluations are done on averages - not on total figures
Lets look at the total stats of the four players:-

Steyn

0/0

17

13/20/28

54

0

8

2

7

14/5

0/0

4

0/0

de Allende

1/0

5

3/9/28

174

3

10

0

2

24/4

0/0

0

0/0

 

Serfontein

2/0

10

1/13/19

83

2

4

2

4

22/5

0/0

0

0/0

F Venter

1/0

5

1/27/26

76

2

6

4

8

53/9

0/0

4

0/0

 

Tries scored 

Here the order of merit is -

1   Serfontein (2)

2   De Allende (1)

2   Venter      (1)

4   Steyn       (0)

Goal kicking

Steyn was the only player kicking at foal.  None of the other three players so the order is

1  Steyn

2  The other 3 players

Ball carries

Here the norm is not only the number of carries - but the aberage distance fained per carry.

1    De Allende  =   6,21 meters per carry

2    Serfontein   =  4,37 meters per carry

3    Venter        =  2,92 meters per carry 

4    Steyn        =   1,93 meters per carry

Line Breaks
Here the order of merit is 

1   De Allende (3)

2   Serfontein (2)

2   Venter      (2)

4   Steyn       (0)

Defenders Beaten

Here the order of merit is 

1   De Allende (10)

2   Steyn       (8)

3   Serfontein (2)

4   Venter      (2)

Possession Losses

Here the order of merit is 

1   De Allende (2)

2   Serfontein (4)

3   Steyn       (7)

4   Venter      (8)

Tackles

The number of tackles made  per game:-

1   Venter      (13)

2   De Allende (8)

3   Serfontein (7)

4   Steyn       (5)

Missed tackle ratio:

1   De Allende     =   14,29%

2   Venter          =   16,98%

3   Serfontein     =   18,52%

4   Steyn           =   26,32%

Penalties Given away

Here the order of merit is 

1   De Allende (0)

1   Serfontein (0)

3   Steyn       (4)

3   Venter      (4)

Summary
Statistically the above indicates the order of merit as follows:=
1    De  Allende  =   6 categories - 1                           3 categories - 2
2   Serfontein   =    2 Categories  - 1                           4 Categoties  - 2                           3 Categories  - 3
3   Venter        =    1 Category    -  1                           3 Categoties -   2                           3 Categories  -  3                           2 Categoties  -  4
4   Steyn         =    1 Category    -  1                           1 Category   -   2                           2 Categories  -  3                           5 Categoties  -  4   I left out Van der Spuy since he is unlikely to play for the Stormers again in the no 12 jersey.       

Statistically based on ESPN data Steyn was the poorest performing of the players that played at 12 for SA franchises.  However, that does not necessarily mean he was the poorest of the centers mentioned.   He is likely to be regarded as third in line after De Allende and Serfontein based on performances thus far this year.  

         

Duplication          

 Duplication
         

Firstly it was Frans first game at 10 for a very long time. Mike do you really expect him to slot in there immediately and throw pin point passes and distribute like a master when he was told he would be playing at 10 just before the game ? I doubt there is one player in the world that can slot into the 10 role seamlessly, at this level, having not played 10 for over 5 years. I am not saying he was the perfect finished article but my fcuk he did very well and added a new dimension that has not been thought about for a long time (aka Honnibal).
Reality says lets see if he continues at 10 for the Sharks and judge him on more than one game. Revelation yes, solution only time will tell. Unfair to judge him on one game.
Leave Jean alone. Play Fransie 10, Serfontein 12, Jean 13 and see what happens. Coaches build a team and the finished solution cannot be picked off the shelf.
Nuff said !  

Rugganut
In a way I agree with you - one game is not the alpha and omega in decisions as to which position a player should play in.  
However, there are some problems of a continuous nature which makes Steyn really problematic at 10 and the main one is his ball distribution - even at center it is problematic.   Steyn never was the most accurate of ball passers - irrespectve of where he played.
Another nagging problem that is bothering me about him in any position he plays in is his defense.   It has never been is strong suit - but at this stage of the competition it is seriously deficient.  Missing more than 26% if all attempted tackles are just not on.      

Sun Tzu
"The same blue-eyed boy that was dropped to give Lambie an entire EOYT to prove himself? Or dropped to show the world how over-hyped Goosen was? Sure, that's real bias right there *rolls eyes*

Just for your information - Morne always was a piss-poor flyhalf with an only asset - kicking at goal.   In 2012 the goal kicking also became piss poor as well, and Meyer was forced into the change.   Did you miss the interview after the team was announced for the Aussie game.  Meyer was nearly in tears when he spoke about Morne - how people at church asked him why Morne was dropped, etc.
By the way - Morne was back in the Springbok jersey when his goal kicking improv ed - despite the fact that the other aspects of his game remained piss-poor.
Wake up to real life - stop living on cloud 9.

What impressed me the most about Frans was his stepping......he has a great step for a big man, much like Nonu has  

 I posted stats showing that Frans beat defenders in every game last year at 12, but Michael rejected them, claiming he is only a crash-baller. It's funny how some statistics are more valid than others depending on who we are talking about. Frans is a far more complete player than Nonu; not that I dislike Nonu, he is one of my favourite players.

Sun Tzu 
In all honesty - where did I reject any stats on Steyn and his beating of defenders last year.  I never rejected it anywhere.  By saying he is a crashballer does not mean he does not beat an occasional defender.  He could still beat a defender and crashball a meter or two further.
Steyn has too many deficiencies to be an all round center - physically he is strong enough - but his ball distribution has always been sub-par and his defence is not nearly good enough.   Too many missed tackles and players beat him with speed as well.  
Not a ball sense player either.  Steyn remains an average player on international level - he would never be beyond that because of the latter deficiency
If Steyn is in the Springbok backline - don't expect anything in attacking play from the backline and always make sure that somebody back up his defense.   
   

Mike. Reality sets in. Frans has not been chosen at 10 this weekend, as i had possibly suggested above. I also doubt very much that Meyer will select a 10 who does not regularly play there for his franchise or club.
So it may prove that all this hot air and drivel of speculation of Frans as the Bok 10, is absolutely baseless. Almost as good as the drivel that is written on Skysports Football. What a load of shite really.  

Rugganut
This whole thread was about hot air.  There is zero possibility that Steyn would play at flyhalf again since despite the media hype -  there really were some serious deficiencies in performance that will prevent a repeat of that experiment.  White will not say anything to the detriment of his players - but there is no doubt that he would have taken note of it.
There is a relentless campaign against three players on this site by Mozart and Sun Tzu. there are others as well they hate with a vengeance.   The three players are Lambiem Goosen and Engelbrecht - the first two because they are diehard Francois Steyn supporters.
Mozart grandly announced after each game of the Cheetahs that Goosen has been injured and dramatize about how injury-prone Goosen is.  Mozart went further and wrote how Goosen without any defenders in site bottled out of a ball carry and passed the ball to Le Roux - as it turned out to be an outright lie.  
According to these two scribes  Lambie is small, weak and slow - never producing anything of consequence insofar as the Sharks backline is concerned.
JJ Engelbrecht is for them an obstacle standing in the way of their two favourite 13's De Jongh and Fourie.  What they wrote about Engelbrecht is molehills they try and turn into Mountains.   I do believe that ultimately Meyer will decide to play De Villiers at 13 - since there are no clearcut favourites for that position.
Meyer would then have to choose between De Allende, Serfontein and Steyn - who he would play at 12.   Based on performances thus far this year De Allende is streets ahead of  Steuyn and also ahead of Serfontein and the fact that he is De Villiers' center partner at the Stormers is going to count hugely in his favour.   

Mike, i read the pages all the time but seldom comment. Obviously i find Saffex the most galling but that is another subject.
I just think that Naas changed the perception in South Africans minds what a 10 should be. He played very little international rugby and when he did we mostly lost. 10 man game specialist which worked playing Currie Cup in isolation.
We have never really recovered from this thinking and in the professional era and more so now where you have superb athletes outside of 10 and it really is a 15 man game, South Africans don't see it and are still coached from schoolboy in this manner. We still see 10 as pulling all the strings and if he performs we win. If he is shite we loose and lay the blame squarely on his shoulders meaning we have a terrible over reliance on 10. What makes it even worse is that our whole team collapses instead of the rest of the backs being able to carry him through or even better a worthy sub on the bench.
The 15 man vision has been so obvious in AB rugby over the last few years but we just cannot see it. Who would have thought that Stephen Donald would have been a WC winner ?
Our thinking is such that if a 10 can 'skop pale', get a good clearance from his 25 and kick a massive up and under to give our slow loosies time to be near where it lands, we have a winner. We still aimlessly kick away far to much possession from 10 but unfortunately this is now slowly creeping into the scrummie game too .
I all honesty i think our narrow minded perception of a 10 will haunt us for years to come and i think coaches are to blame here. We simply do not have decent 10's and they are required by the coaches to play a dumb game.
Anyway, it is my opinion.

Rugganut
How come you understand the situation so clearly and many others do not.  I can remember a classical term of one of our members - when he claimed that the fact that our flyhalfs receive the ball standing still - is the traditional way fllyhalf play operates in SA.   It is not and should never have been -  it was started off by Naas Botha and later on fine-tuned by Morne Steyn.
What Morne Steyn always produces and Francois Steyn copied on Saturday is in fact "stone age" rugby and ultimately lead to problem - especially if the no 10's can kick - but the rest of their game is deficient.  You only have to look at the defense of the Steyns to realize their deficiencies and their passing games are seriously problematic as well.  They mostly do not know when to kick and when to pass balls since their reading capacity of games is limited.