Russian Aristocrat who played for England...Ol' Maaik, this will interest you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Obolensky Mike...I know you are interested in history, the royals, Russia and obcourse rugby...all 4 in one subject. It is also interesting that he played for England against the AB's and England won 13-0.... Alexander scored one of the greatest tries ever.

I have heard about the rugby playing career of Obolensky before amd it is very interesting indeed. The family was also linked to the Volkonski family and ultimately also the Tolstoys. A second cousin of Leo Tolstoy mother - Countess Mary - was a Prince Volkonsky, The latter was the grandson of the last Prince Repnin whose daughter married a Prince Volkonsky. When the male line of the Repnin family became extinct Alexander 1 by proclamation named her second son as Prince Repnin so as to keep the family name alive in future. The following from the ancestry of Leo Tolstoy:- "Let us finally mention one more personality of the Volkonsky family, who, though not an ancestor of Tolstoy's in the direct line, is yet one of his kinsmen, Prince Sergey Grigoriyevich Volkonsky, the Decembrist. He is a second cousin of Tolstoy's mother and a grandson of Simon Fedorovich Volkonsky, brother of Prince Sergey Feodorovich, mentioned above. The prince was born in 1788, took part in the campaign of 1812, and afterward joined the southern secret society; and for participation in the conspiracy of the Decembrists he was exiled to Eastern Siberia, where he remained for thirty years; the earlier years he spent doing hard labor in irons, but afterward he lived there in Siberia as a settler.9 The journey and arrival of his wife, Princess Marie Nikolayevna, are described in the well-known poem of Nekrasov. In 1801 his brother Prince Nikolay Grigoriyevich Volkonsky took, by order of the Emperor Aleksandr I, the surname Repnin, that of his grandfather on his mother's side, whose family in the direct line had died out. "Let not the family of the princes Repnin," said the ukase, "which so gloriously served its country, become extinct with the death of the last of them, but let it be renewed, and remain with its name and example never to be obliterated in the remembrance of the Russian nobility." The First Prince Repnin in fact bore the surname Obolensky In War and Peace there is a reference to this Prince meeting Napoleon as a POW after the battle of Austerlitz. This was in fact a factual meeting that did take place and a full account of this meeting is confirmed historically,

Thanks for insert of Obolensky's ancestry and Tolstoy connection..very interesting Mike and I've just had my wife Elena say you are spot-on...most Russians know their history well. History was favourite subject at school but had no scope at varsity unless you wanted to become a school teacher. I thought Beeno , Denny and Mozart would have something to say too...Beeno would love the fact that the wee kiwibirds met their Waterloo againgst the Poms...even if it was so long ago and Denny is poop scared of Uncle Vlad whist Mozart knows more about than anyone...and also fears the Russians...lol

Seb the man did a fine job helping to obliterate the wee kiwis. Russia is hated by the Globalists because the country is not as yet globalist controlled. Putin kicked out the Rothchilds and Soros. The Globalist MSM do what they can to whip up anti Russian feelings. Now they are on about an insignificant interference (if the FBI can be believed) in the US elections which assistant AG Rosenstein said did not effect the election. But using this to whip up anti Russian feelings. No mention of American interference in other countries elections. Big Question - will Hussein Obama be indicted for interfering n Israel's election ?

Seb I think the hatred by Americans of Russia goes back a long way. Fact is that the Russian revolution of 1917 was funded by the Americans and the Communists were kept n charge so as to serve the interests of their funders, Remember an honest politician was described as "Once bought by his handlers - he stays bought". This situation allows for the Government Of Russia to murder 52 million people between 1917 and 1953 - when Stalin died. The hatred started in the 1950's when the bought communists lost power and a new dictator took over. It was at that time that the "Hate Russia" movies started coming out of Hollywood and the Americans faced some threats from Russia. It is stupid - but very real. I do not think Russia is threatening the USA - it is more economic competition than anything else.

The Bolshevik revolution which included the murder of the entire Royal family and countless others and looting by the "pigs"....the Lenins, Trotsky's and many other scumbags is together with a sick world that did not do anything when it could have been nipped in the bud...bear in mind that the Mensheviks ,under Kerensky were the majority in the Duma. England and America sat by and did sweet fanny adams...such cowardly and disloyalty by the ruling King who was a cousin of Nicholas who turned a blind eye to a close member of his family...shocking, cruel and unfeeling. It's hard to fathom. And yes the rest of the so-called supposably freeworld could have helped the White Army to eventually overthrow the Red Army. One wonders if this had happened where this huge country would be today, whether communism would have spread it's poisonous clutches to the rest of the world and even a diluted form socialism would take root...a root unfortunately today that's not dead and continues to infest us every where. Probably the biggest tragedy ever, even far more so than Hitler because I doubt if he would have been able to take root in a Europe with a strong and friendly Russia. Makes one think, doesn't it?

Seb The first Russian I met in person was the late Prof Elisiveta Foxcroft. Her father was a baron and she was in fact borne in Russia. Her parents fled from Russia in 1917. She became the Professor in Russian at UNISA and ultimately was regarded as a world expert in the history of Russian as a language. After the death of Stalin she was invited to Russia numerous times to address conferences on the language. She really was a wonderful and friendly person and culturally sophisticated. Afterwards I met numerous Russians in East Berlin and Russia itself, They all were extremely friendly and very pleasant, There is no evidence in all of the nasty image the Americans have of the people itself. Maybe it is jealousy of a people with an extremely advanced cultural level and background.
You must ask your wife about the nickname they gave Tsar Ivan "the Terrible" especially in view of the following:- "The English word terrible is usually used to translate the Russian word grozny in Ivan's nickname, but this is a somewhat archaic translation. The Russian word grozny reflects the older English usage of terrible as in "inspiring fear or terror; dangerous; powerful; formidable". It does not convey the more modern connotations of English terrible, such as "defective" or "evil". Vladimir Dal defines grozny specifically in archaic usage and as an epithet for tsars: "courageous, magnificent, magisterial and keeping enemies in fear, but people in obedience".[6] Other translations have also been suggested by modern scholars.[7][8][9] " Apparently the ordinary people admired him - but in view of his distrust of the nobility they were terrified of him.

You are very correct in what you are saying...grosny does not mean terrible in the English context...but as you have implied...and the your description of the Russian character is 9 times out of 10 correct. Just a wee correction...it is Elisiveta, which is Russian equivalent of Elizabeth. Going back to rugby international Prince Alexander Obolensky, he was quite a man...he was buried close to Saffex's home in Ipswich, Suffolk...I wonder if Dave knows this...hahahaha.

It’s economic competition. Now there’s a laugh. Apart from oil pray tell us Tokie in which economic sectors do the US and Russia compete? Russian GNP is about 8 % of the US....Brazil is a bigger economic competitor.

So why does the US live on constant debts with half of he US Dollars held by creditors outside the US?

Economics 101 Tokkie....low wages everywhere else.....most of the technology for cars, planes, computers, the extraction of oil comes from the US. Walmart basically created China. And if China gets expensive some other low cost producer will emerge. In the meantime the world acheives better growth and a higher standard of living because every creditor is confident he is going to be paid. But the US is now producing more oil than Saudi Arabia because of fracking ....not because all the brilliant people in the oil industry got one ounce of support from Obama.

Mozart So Russia does not compete with other countries for export markets? They export zero so they are not competing with other countries for export deals?

Mozart So Russia does not compete with other countries for export markets? They export zero so they are not competing with other countries for export deals?

Your point was the US competes with Russia for export, hence the rivalry. Russia exports $150 billion of non oil products. The US exports $1300 billion of non oil products. For 90% of US products Russia is a non factor. The rivalry exists because of the Soviet military power. It’s not dissimilar to the ‘rivalry’ between North and South Korea. In every measurable way South Korea is superior but the North pours all its wealth into the military, depriving it’s citizens. The truth is the US and Russia were allies in WW2 and Russia received huge military equipment shipments from the US without which things would have been much worse. But Russia won the war in Europe at the Battle of Kursk. The Western front was facilitated by the Russian advance. After the war the balance was upset by the US discovery of the atomic bomb and the natural divergence of interests.

There I agree with you - the idiom of an honest politician as quoted above is clear. Russia has massive natural resources and that was the reason for the financial support of US economists of the communist dictators for decades. Propaganda has a lot to do with it too. Scare the hell out of the people and money would flow into the armaments industry in the US. A few wars help of course - eg Vietnam and Iraq. In the scale of warmongers the US is way ahead of Russia and has been ever since WW2. Let me be clear - the Communists were a bunch of bad puppets and did meddle supporting similar dictatorships elsewhere, but communism collapsed in Russia 30 years ago and that did not suit US interests, so he Cold War image must be maintained even now. The latest "crisis" relates to Ukraine, but through the centuries Russia has always defended the ethnic Russians in all areas. 80% of the population of Crimea and 40% if the population of Ukraine overall were ethnic Russians - hence their meddling in Ukraine, In any event Stalin were interested in guarding against the potential threat by the Ukrainians and created an artificial state where there would be a large Russian population in the Soviet Republic of Ukraine. That republic remained after the fall of the Communists and caused havoc after 2000 in the artificial state created originally by Stalin. Anyway there is one lesson that history always confirmed and that is that ultimately dictatorships always collapse (the same happened in the Soviet Russia) and that wars are used to protect economic interests of the countries concerned and has very little to do with humanitarian interests which often enough is the pretext used,

This post was initially about Obolensky and his rugby prowess, however like some posts they always seem to digress on contentious issues...lol. Both of you are correct on most points but both countries are entirely different...Russia does not compete with USA in the global markets and it is not logical to even debate this but their different structures. USA primary controls global markets, Russia does not and neither intends to. Russia is a loner and developes within...but their potential resources are staggering...no country has such natural resources and mining potential as this enormous land that stretches from europe to the far east, timber forests in Siberia, water and huge rivers, diamonds, iron ore and many other metals...probably 99% still to be discovered and mined...hampered by extremely harsh climate in Siberia. They have vast space too but the bulk of their population is around Moscow and St Petersburg. This is a country that can easily be self sustaining. USA is a trader and has it's fingers in virtually every pie and is the business centre of the global world and needs others to make it rich. Two personalities that are entirely different in character, culture and dependence...it is only natural that they don't see eye to eye. Russians love to be left alone and really don't care if nobody loves them...westerners do and need other nations. This is a very crude and rough estimate of the differences between them...there are always exceptions ofcourse and degrees of differences.

Defending ethic groups in sovereign states is exactly the excuse the Nazis used. Hence the invasion of Poland. It’s no excuse...nor was the invasion of Hungary by Russia justifiable. Some of the American wars are internally debated.....not Kuwait, not Afghanistan, not Korea, but certainly Vietnam and Iraq. The fact that the debate exists demonstrates the difference between the two countries. And the US occupations of Germany and Japan after WW2 promoted their economic miracles....in contrast to France and Britain’s beggar- thy- neighbour approach after WW1. The US is the only super power in history to not use it’s military strength to vaccum up resources. In spite of winning two wars in the ME in which many of it’s young men died, it has paid for every barrel of oil and willingly handed back occupied territory. No other country with the power edge the US has enjoyed for 100 years hasn’t waged wars of avarice. The Boer War being a classic example. In terms of the Global Super Power the world could do a lot worse and probably will if China ever gets the role.

It is important to understand and differentiate between the old USSR and Federation of Russia. This post was initially about Obolensky and his rugby prowess, however like some posts they always seem to digress on contentious issues...lol. Both of you are correct on most points but both countries are entirely different...Russia does not compete with USA in the global markets and it is not logical to even debate this but their different structures. USA primary controls global markets, Russia does not and neither intends to. Russia is a loner and developes within...but their potential resources are staggering...no country has such natural resources and mining potential as this enormous land that stretches from europe to the far east, timber forests in Siberia, water and huge rivers, diamonds, iron ore and many other metals...probably 99% still to be discovered and mined...hampered by extremely harsh climate in Siberia. They have vast space too but the bulk of their population is around Moscow and St Petersburg. This is a country that can easily be self sustaining. USA is a trader and has it's fingers in virtually every pie and is the business centre of the global world and needs others to make it rich. Two personalities that are entirely different in character, culture and dependence...it is only natural that they don't see eye to eye. Russians love to be left alone and really don't care if nobody loves them...westerners do and need other nations. This is a very crude and rough estimate of the differences between them...there are always exceptions ofcourse and degrees of differences.

That’s an interesting take on the two countries Seb. I have a great respect for Russian literature, music and mathematics. It has fabulous intellectual capital and as you point out, fabulous physical assets. But like Brazil it’s governing institutions seem to get in the way of the expected concomitant economic success,

Mozart I differ from you seen in historic content. The Boer War and the First World War were  purely economic wars leading to disastrous consequences for the future. Fact is that he First World War resulted in the breaking up of the German and Austrian empires and the creation of artificial states such as Yugoslavia and the incorporation of large German populations in non-German mini-states. For instance a German city l ike Danzig and the Silesia area was totally German and incorporated into Poland. This together with the economic penalties imposed on the Germans let to a poverty-stricken Germany - a dangerous situation at best. It caused the rise of the dangerous character (Hitler) with a direct result being the Second World War. Like in the case of the Germans being put in artificially created states for being the reason for WW2 is superficial and the real reason must be taken back to the Treaty of Versailles and the economic consequences of that Treaty, To equate the present Ukrainian problems with the issue of Nazi=Germany is totally irresponsible. Go back and find out why Stalin created a state like Ukraine and then it became another example of the mess the Allies made of Europe after World War 1 and you would find the real background to the situation.