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FORUM / RUGBY /  SA coaches need coaching

SA coaches need coaching

Started by Flashdakota46 REPLIES1,249 VIEWS· 20 Jul 2014, 23:27
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Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
20 Jul 2014, 23:27
#1
20 Jul 2014, 23:27#1
Before I begin, let me reiterate that I am by no means a level 3 or 4 coach. I did a 3 week coaching course because I wanted to coach juniors at club level.

Following on from some of your previous threads, I agree with you all wholeheartedly regarding the SA coaching style.

From my practical experience as a club player and as a coach and as a staunch follower of local rugga, there is a common thread amongst 90% of our coaches.

The inherent "koppe stamp" (head stomping) mentality of our coaches goes way back to the mid to late 20th century where coaches used to instruct players to smash anything that stands in their way by means of fist, knee or studs!

That type of mentality hasn't wavered much, though there have been attempts by some of our younger club and provincial coaches to become a bit more scientific and 3 dimensional.

One of the few SA schools who seem to have adapted to the modern game is Bishops. I love watching them play at festivals every year. It's like watching a 30 man game of touch rugby. Kudos to their coaching staff for encouraging their players to be expressive on the field and not worry about the result, but more about the kind of game they play.

I am not going to mention a single provincial coach's name in my article as the purpose of it is not to entice an argument as to who is the best or worst coach, but to try and open up a conversation about "where to next"?

I attended a middle class public school in Johannesburg and was coached by a former Transvaal and Golden Lions rugby player Calla Niemend. As a matriculant, I played hooker and weighed 82kg's.

I was a fairly skillful and crafty hooker, but was by no means a giant! I played A team from 8th grade.

Now Niemand (a beast at 135kgs), never gave me a chance to don the 1st team jersey. Why? Because I was 5kg's ligher than the next hooker.

A year later I went on to play club rugby and did so for the next 7 years. I played 1st XV most of the time (I got my weight up to 95kg's).

What occured to me throughout my rugby career was that every single coach that I played for, with 1 exception, had the same philosophy... moer hulle stukkend, en fok hulle op (beat them till they break and fuck them up)!

And so when I was done with my playing career I decided to try my hand at coaching.

In my first season, I coached an U19 side. I tried the same philosophies and methods that my coaches had used  with me. I even copied their training regime. We had a fairly successful year. 8 wins and 6 losses which placed us 4th on the log.

The next year I was put in charge of the same squad who were now U20's.

I wanted to win the league with my team this year, but I knew we'd have to try something different as we had some impressive opponents.

And so it got me thinking... It was time disband koppe stamp.

During our preseason, I introduced 1 new drill. Instead of using tackle bags just to practice tackling skills, we started using them as opponent (would be) tacklers and staggered about 20 of them accross 30 x 30 meters. The aim was to get 5 players to run across the 30 meters at full speed at different angles and different lines trying to AVOID what was in front of them. (I'm not saying that I invented this drill, but I had never met another coach who had ever used it)

That invited some creativity to our training sessions. We put together another 6 attacking drills which with the sole purpose of MISSING and AVOIDING the would be tacklers instead of "koppe stamping" them.

The guys thrived on it and made training a lot more fun and the guys wanted to go on for longer to see the different kinds of lines and angles they could run at to achieve the same purpose. To get over the try-line.

We obviously still kept a lot of the core coaching techniques... but the difference was those 6 or 7 creative attacking drills which we thumped out for 7 months.

By the end of that year, my squad had lost 1 match by 2 points (our 1st choice kicker broke his collarbone in the first half). We won the league hands down.

What I did not mention was that my heaviest forward weighed 102kgs and my first choice hooker weighed 82.

For personal reasons I had to stop coaching the following year. Though I regret it every day that I wake up, as it is a passion of mine.

I'm writing this not for any self gratification or reward, but I really would love to see some of our professional and well trained junior coaches embrace the modern game.

In South Africa, we have an abundance of gold and mineral wealth.... but even more than that, we have been blessed with the natural, powerful athletes that flow in and out of the system each and every year. Even with our narrow mindedness, we still have some of the best school boy rugby in the world.

Now just imagine how much better we could be!
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
21 Jul 2014, 00:26
#2
21 Jul 2014, 00:26#2
The coaching in Wales is 10x as bad, I hope you return to coaching sound like a smart fellow! 
One tip that I'll continue to use and share is something I got told by my Father, if there's no space between defenders run at their outstretched arms, it's helped me score a try or two.
CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
21 Jul 2014, 00:40
#3
21 Jul 2014, 00:40#3
 well well well.
That was a great read.
Agree with shez.... mate you need to return to coaching.
WHy did you stop?????
It isnt about how well qualified you are. Its about how insightful you are.

Well played flash!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
21 Jul 2014, 00:49
#4
21 Jul 2014, 00:49#4
 Flash why are top coaches like Mallet, Rassie and Venter not coaching? We are not a merit based society is one factor. Every other country strives for excellence but here it is not necessarily the overriding factor. 
Personally, as I have said, I think both the Lions and Cheetahs play attractive running rugby.Stormers have started to turn it around. Sharks and bulle are reasonable but need to improve more.The balance is returning to our rugby in my view. But I do agree work on skills must increase. Our physical style also leads to injuries.


Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
21 Jul 2014, 01:00
#5
21 Jul 2014, 01:00#5
 @shezza - thanks brother
@chip - married with kids. needed to earn decent cash to provide us with the lifestyle we needed / wanted. it would have taken years to have been able to earn my current salary as a coach.

@beeno - my friend the problem starts much lower down. Because school boys are coached "koppe stamp" style, when they become coaches, its so deeply ingrained in their minds that they begin the cycle all over again.
If i was in charge at SARU, i would plough millions in to getting the top kiwi school boy coaches in to the country for 10 years from grade 8 to matric. Id put them in all the top 20 schools around the country. Id also get them in to the top 20 clubs. Hopefully this would start to flush out the old boeremag mentality.
Shit man, we have so many rough diamonds that end up being ruined.


Screw rugby development in rural lands. That will sort itself out. In 20 years of democracy how many black africans have come through the ranks? I can't think of many.

Rather put those billions of bucks in to our coaching regime.

PS: the lions started playing their harlem globetrotter stuff when King Carlos and John Hitler took over. Ackers merely carried on where they left off.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
21 Jul 2014, 04:15
#6
21 Jul 2014, 04:15#6
 Beeno, Mallett has had offers but refuses them, Venter is involved with the Sarries and his Surgery and Rassie Erasmus has a huge part in management/analysis/something of SA rugby.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
21 Jul 2014, 05:03
#7
21 Jul 2014, 05:03#7
Major problems with the backline especially. 
Look how the Sharks forwards completely dominated the Highlanders, but their backline was miles ahead of ours.
If our inside backs were half as good as our forwards, we would be pushing for 1st positionIf our inside backs were as good as our forwards we would be easily be number one in the world.
If we had centres that were around the 100kg mark that could pass and be creative like Willie Leroux , our SuperXV teams would score much more tries. 
Perhaps it is also the trend of the modern game that requires bigger backline players. 

At the moment we either have small backline players with skill, or big centres that can only crash ball. 
With New Zealand and Australia raiding the pacific Islands, we are seeing some massive backline players- but they still have skills. 
When our backline players hit the gym and creatine, they seem to lose what little passing and running skill they once had. 
Rarely do you ever see a South African centre running at full speed throwing a long pass. At best it is a pop pass, which gives the reciever less options or just a hospital pass. 

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Jul 2014, 15:04
#8
22 Jul 2014, 15:04#8

 ...."my friend the problem starts much lower down. Because school boys are coached "koppe stamp" style, when they become coaches, its so deeply ingrained in their minds that they begin the cycle all over again.

 

 

Tx Flash, agree with most of what you suggest. I've always believed South Africa lacked quality coaches and that there was an awful amount of pretenders running around. Our talent is wasted and whatever talent rises to the top never reaches full maturity. It's a bloody shame that to this day we still see Springboks lacking basic skills.

We're at the wrong end of the stick with regards to coaching....start with the youth.

 

 

I shook my head in disbelief when it was reported that Rassie was happy with the U19's emulating the senior Bok style of play. I simply cannot think of a bigger pretender than the SARU director of rugby, Rassie Erasmus.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jul 2014, 15:56
#9
22 Jul 2014, 15:56#9

Great read Flash and am 100% in agreement with you here. The SA way is the conservative way and the very reason we always end up coming second.

 

Our players all tend to attack contact when the most obvious thing to do is to attack space.

 

Its about striking a balance, your forwards should always strive to impose themselves physically, but always with an eye on attacking space when the opportunity presents itself........Marcel Coetzee is a prime example......he is full or running and energy, but much of that energy is directed at contact and to his credit he breaks the advantage line. However, if he brought some variety into his game by every now and again attacking space or offloading to a player better placed than himself, he would be a far better player.

 

Why is a seasoned coach like Jake not bringing this out in a player like Coetzee - its because under Jake the Sharks play boring unimaginative rugby. The philosophy that you are better off with less of the ball is madness, but its the SA way. We love to kick the ball away as well, playing for position, when in reality you only end up conceding possession. If kicked balls were better attacked by the team doing the kicking then there might be some merit in this tactic. Too often we see our chasers jump up in the air like a bunch of fairies with little intent on actually competing for the ball - what's the bloody point?

 

Our backs suffer the same decease, too often our centres look to attack contact when a centres primary instinct should be to beat the defender through skill. Look what that has done for Fikatoau (spelling) of the Highlanders or our own Willie who epitomises what a modern back should be doing. Willie is always looking to create or attack space and it is forever bearing fruit. Yes the modern game is tightly structured defensively and much of a centres time is taken up in traffic where the bash is a must, but its about seizing those moments in a game and getting as much out of the space created that lets our backs down. They are so ingrained at taking contact, that when space is presented, they still head for contact.

 

Its a mindset thing, our players all have the skills as we see it in glimpses.......the art is empowering them to back those skills and beat the man and not take the easy route of contact.

 

We have far too many conservative coaches who lack the imagination to look beyond the direct route. But as poor as this is, the major issue with our coaches is their poor selection of sides. There is only so much a coach can coach, the game is played on the park and the greatest service a coach can do is get his selections right. Far too often we see sides let down by poor selections......no more so than useless Meyer right now with the Boks. We have more talent than ever, but Meyer continues to showcase only 50% of that.

 

Its a travesty that these people get to the heights they do as coaches when they cant even get the most fundamental part of the equation right in team selections.

 

I coach as a hobby but know deep down I could do a far better job than most of the pretenders we see. Hell I have witnessed that first hand with my mate Pete setting the world alight at Griquas.......it can be done!

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 17:52
#10
22 Jul 2014, 17:52#10
 Denny
In watching the Craven Week last week I did not notice the style you refer to.  The youngsters ball skills are in fact better than the case is in senior rugby.   Not only that - they run attacking lines which you would never see in senior rugby.   
I think the main problem is that the major unions take these kids and forced them into playing a style of rugby found in general in SA on senior level.
Take for instance the case of Willie le Roux - he played for the Boland school team and then went to Griquas - where he was allowed to play a different style of rugby he naturally played.  If eh went to the Bulls for instance - he would not even do 10% of what he does at present.
In essence I disagree with you - I think our coaches in fact are the problem and if they take what they get from our top school teams and nurture and develop them we will see a better situation completely.  But they doon't - because they are stuck on the "koppe stamp" system.     
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:23
#11
22 Jul 2014, 18:23#11
Mike the skill of the juniors is not better than the senior players, they are encouraged to use their skills, the seniors are not - that is the difference  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:26
#12
22 Jul 2014, 18:26#12
 Saffex
100% correct in what you said - what is your friend saying about Griquas coaching?  I must admit they played extremely well in the CC qualifiers games - there definitely was a different "feel"  in that team and the way they played.   .   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:40
#13
22 Jul 2014, 18:40#13
 Ag ou Maaikie, how would Davy boy know. His mate didn't even tell him that  he was pissing off back to SA. Why would he keep him informed about life under the real Griquas coach, Hawies Fourie?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:51
#14
22 Jul 2014, 18:51#14
 D offies 
Bugger off from this topic before I get really nasty.   Your comments are not rugby-related at all.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:57
#15
22 Jul 2014, 18:57#15

Oh boy the apartheid Dutchman has come to advise us all........tell us Vlagshit, how did you come to that conclusion you lying low life.......you starting to follow in Moffie's footsteps......you old fuckers seem to think that lying somehow carries weight.

 

Geez it must be sad being a rockspider?  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Jul 2014, 19:00
#16
22 Jul 2014, 19:00#16

Mike, Pete is a great guy first and foremost, so the team will play for him. He is loving it and looking forward to the opportunity of buying in some players when the budget allows!!

 

He likes the running game

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Jul 2014, 20:06
#17
22 Jul 2014, 20:06#17


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8438 RE: SA coaches need coaching
July 22, 2014, 16:57:02

Oh boy the apartheid Dutchman has come to advise us all........tell us Vlagshit, how did you come to that conclusion you lying low life.......you starting to follow in Moffie's footsteps......you old fuckers seem to think that lying somehow carries weight.

 

Geez it must be sad being a rockspider? 






Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8440 RE: SA coaches need coaching
July 22, 2014, 17:00:10

Mike, Pete is a great guy first and foremost, so the team will play for him. He is loving it and looking forward to the opportunity of buying in some players when the budget allows!!

 

He likes the running game


Yeah right. So the players are going to say to Hawies: "Piss off. You are nothing. We are playing for Dimex' mate, good old Pete."

Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
23 Jul 2014, 13:55
#18
23 Jul 2014, 13:55#18
 @saf... look we are number 2 in the world... even though we use old apartheid era coaching manuals...
We will always be there, or there about simply because of our natural strength and the number of players we have from school boy level to provincial level...
But it will take a total mind-shift to get us away from where we are to where we want to be.

Many people (including most of us) will not be patient enough to witness such a slow process (in my mind, we are looking at a 12 year cycle) to change the way our players think.

What I'd like to see is money spent on school boy and club level coaches (as i mentioned in my original post). Bring in the Kiwis... bring in the Aussie Rules coaches... We need to start teaching kids the basics of running in to space and making use of it, whilst still maintaining our core strengths. That can't be done in 1 training session at Lucky Ndlovu's holiday training camp.

Its a big process. And will require a lot of patience from people like clevermike and moz who are critical on every move and result.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2014, 14:16
#19
23 Jul 2014, 14:16#19
 @beeno - my friend the problem starts much lower down. Because school boys are coached "koppe stamp" style, when they become coaches, its so deeply ingrained in their minds that they begin the cycle all over again.
If i was in charge at SARU, i would plough millions in to getting the top kiwi school boy coaches in to the country for 10 years from grade 8 to matric. Id put them in all the top 20 schools around the country. Id also get them in to the top 20 clubs. Hopefully this would start to flush out the old boeremag mentality.
Shit man, we have so many rough diamonds that end up being ruined.
When I do watch schools rugby I see very nice attacking play Flash. WP traditonally play good balanced rugby but went totally defence oriented untill recently. 
Well said Mike - In watching the Craven Week last week I did not notice the style you refer to.  The youngsters ball skills are in fact better than the case is in senior rugby.   Not only that - they run attacking lines which you would never see in senior rugby.   
What we need to strive for is abetter balance between attack and defence. More skills in hte backline. To me a problem is going to ground instead of offloading/ finding a palyer to pass to. Going to ground allows the opposition to reset.I have remarked, like snapster did, that marcell coetzee really needs to learn skills. Great heart and everything else. Looking for gaps rather than seking comtact may resultin us having fewer injuries which alone would ensure sides like the Stoerms are in the playoffs etc.
We do not look for the best coaches. 
Cheaser what Sa posts has Mallet turned down?




GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
23 Jul 2014, 14:25
#20
23 Jul 2014, 14:25#20
 You have a country with one of the worst education systems on the planet and who has a severe handout mentality. Why should anyone expect intellectuals from this country? There is NO culture for learning in South Africa. Zero, zip, nil. That's the problem.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
23 Jul 2014, 14:37
#21
23 Jul 2014, 14:37#21
 Beeno AKA StormingED, he turned down the Sharks.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2014, 14:40
#22
23 Jul 2014, 14:40#22
 Gonz ou we have intellectuals here.
What we have here is a first world component building the country up and a third world component taught that government must provide them with everything. Unfortunately the government is both corrupt and incompetent so their dreams are not coming to pass and never will untill we get honest competent folk running the country. End of story.
We have good coaches but they are not coaching. Remember two brilliant coaches in Mallet and Rassie walked out of WP and we now have Alistair Coetzee!!
Cobus Visagie, a CA, said that Rassie was the finest rugby brain he had ever encountered. Wake up Denny your take on Rassie is dead wrong. 
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
23 Jul 2014, 14:43
#23
23 Jul 2014, 14:43#23
 You have intellectuals, abroad! South Africa is falling apart because of handouts and stupid new generation whites that are so passive you could drive a speare through their head and they would just chuckle like farmer fudd on twenty boxes of diazepam. It's really, really serious. They can't learn and never think about learning. Cast off coaches from New Zealand are like Gods when they comes here because they can connect A to B.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Jul 2014, 15:11
#24
23 Jul 2014, 15:11#24
No Dutchie, Pete and Hawies are a team you fucking idiot  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Jul 2014, 15:20
#25
23 Jul 2014, 15:20#25

Flash, yes we will always come second if we continue to fail in selecting the right players and embracing a better brand of rugby.

 

Its so bloody simple, play to our strengths by imposing our physicality, but when the opportunity arises, we need a shift in focus on attack......we need to attack space and learn the art of running lines.

 

Geez us part-time coaches can get these basics right, why do our professional coaches fail so........for some absurd reason they seem to think their methods work - but they fail to comprehend that coming second is just not good enough.

 

Problem is, I think our administrators at the top have no bloody idea themselves so they are not in a position to question the coaches and their methods......their only agenda seems to be addressing racial imbalances

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Jul 2014, 17:48
#26
23 Jul 2014, 17:48#26
 
.affex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8459 RE: SA coaches need coaching
July 23, 2014, 13:11:42 No Dutchie, Pete and Hawies are a team you fucking idiot 
Of course they are a team you fucking moron but Hawies is the guy in charge and "my mate pete" is his humble servant.

"Bloemfontein - Free State Cheetahs assistant coach Hawies Fourie has been appointed Griquas' head coach for the next three years, the Griqualand West Rugby Union said on Thursday.

The 45-year-old Fourie will replace Pote Human, who has accepted a position as head of coaching at Tukkies for 2014, from the end of the season."


"In Fourie's absence due to Super Rugby, Engledow will coach Griquas for next year's (this was written in 2013 and obviously refers to 2014) Vodacom Cup competition."


"I will still be actively involved in the Cheetahs Super Rugby campaign and will therefore trust in Peter Engledow and Pieter Bergh to take the reins in my absence.

"During the Vodacom Cup, I will, however, pop in every now and again to see how things progress." See? He would even have been popping in to check up on "my mate pete".


http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/CurrieCup/Official-Fourie-Griquas-coach-20131010


Neeeeee boet. "My mate pete" is Hawies' lackey. Live with it.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Jul 2014, 18:50
#27
23 Jul 2014, 18:50#27
Did I say Pete was in charge fuckwit?  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Jul 2014, 20:47
#28
23 Jul 2014, 20:47#28
 You said that the players will play for "my mate pete", as if he was the head honcho. When I helped you out you threw your normal tantrum about them "being a team". I did not even disagree with you. I merely tried to point out to you that you are over estimating the role of "my mate pete". FFS, Hawies didn't even have the confidence to say to him: "There you go 'my mate pete', there's your team for the time being. See you again after the S15". Nope, he had to pop in from time to time to make sure things are going according to plan.

Let me reiterate:

Neeeeee boet. "My mate pete" is Hawies' lackey. Live with it.



CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
25 Jul 2014, 00:03
#29
25 Jul 2014, 00:03#29
1. Who gives a F about Halvies
2. Why have you cocks gone and butchered what starter out as a great read?

You guys are worse than my 2 toddler daughters (who are still in nappies).

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 15:30
#30
25 Jul 2014, 15:30#30

Look here dumb Dutchman, I am getting a little tired of how fucking stupid you are. Me saying that the team will play for Pete does not mean he is the head coach you fucking clueless twat - how fucking thick are you.

 

 

Pete was in full charge during the VC, where he was outstanding as a coach, with his players playing for him

 

 

Geez apartheid man you are fucking ridiculously stupid......irritatingly so  

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:04
#31
25 Jul 2014, 16:04#31

Hey SafeSex

 

Relax my brewster, take a chill pill my bro

 

You are going to have a heart attack, and that's the last thing I want to happen.

 

I don't want to be denied my daily laugh

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:06
#32
25 Jul 2014, 16:06#32
Deviltwat, go take a look in the mirror for a laugh you stupid prick 
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:11
#33
25 Jul 2014, 16:11#33

I get my daily laugh already my bru

 

I come on here and read your posts  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:14
#34
25 Jul 2014, 16:14#34

My bru? fuck me do you also brandish a comb in your sock you fucking idiot?

 

A simple yes or no will do?

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:16
#35
25 Jul 2014, 16:16#35

Sup my bru

 

What you want an answer for?  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 18:42
#36
25 Jul 2014, 18:42#36
An answer for oranges?  
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 Jul 2014, 18:53
#37
25 Jul 2014, 18:53#37

Shotto my good buddy

 

Orange? ok.

 

That's why you stare at the carton of orange juice for so long , hey SafeSex

 

Because it says concentrate 

Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
25 Jul 2014, 19:07
#38
25 Jul 2014, 19:07#38
 And so it seems like someone agrees with my sentiments..

Carlos Spencer slams SA approach

I for one am so happy that Carlos is in SA. I loved watching him with ball in hand. Probably one of the most entertaining rugby players I have ever watched.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 19:11
#39
25 Jul 2014, 19:11#39
Yep Flash, Carlos is spot on  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jul 2014, 19:19
#40
25 Jul 2014, 19:19#40
Flash
I also quoted the whole article on Spencer's comment - but don;t expect anything from the dumbos on this site.
Let me explain something else.   Last year there was a debate on this site of how a flyhalf receive balls.   My point of view was that unlike what happened in the past and how flyhalfs used to be coached - the present flyhalfs like the Steyn's stand dead still when they receive balls and only after receipt of the ball start moving forward.    That neutralizes any potential backline attacking movement or lead to an ineffective passing game - since the flyhalds stand to deep in the pocket in any event.   
Back came the following classic from one of our members:-
"That is the traditional SA way of playing rugby by the flyhalf".
Traditional - absolute rubbish - that crept into our game with some flyhalfs we have had recently and was never the case in the past.
Can you now understand that you are dealing here with a lot of ignorant scoundrels when raising a topic like this one?   They think this type of thread casts doubts on their ideal players and therefore it must be wrong.
        
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