SA's lack of centres

We lack genuine depth at centre in SA at the moment. Sure Frans and JDV are fine for now, but without them where are we? It is a sign of a weakness at centre, when major unions like the Stormers and The Sharks are playing wingers like Habana and Pietersen at centre, because there is nobody else to fill those positions. And I know a lot of you won't like this, but Frans Steyn has lost a lot of the magic he used to have with ball in hand. Sure he can kick a mile, but he is just being used as a battering ram lately, and not much else. I just wonder if that is because he has nothing else to offer. JDV will be over the hill before too long, and then what? Bring back J Fourie? De Jong, good but not great. Olivier, pull the other one. And a whole string of others that are good, but nothing special. We need quality centres like Tuilagi, Nonu, Omaga, Mortlock, O Driscoll.....and they simply aren't out there,

 I don't think we have a lack of Centres, i just think we have a lack of experienced quality centres. We have alot of young good ones coming through.

EK, I am not saying we don't have good centres, I am saying we don't have special centres. We have hand fulls of run of the mill centres, but no great players. I am talking about more than just good.

You are wrong, we have plenty of depth at centre, much of which is made up of youngsters coming through.

We have established test centres in Jean and Frans, we have some test experience in Olivier

We have classy youngsters coming through in Whitehead, Jaco Taute, JJ.Engelbrecht, Frans Venter, Sadie and JP du Plessis - who are playing or have had exposure to S15 rugby. For those that like the little guys there is Ebersohn and de Jongh.

We have real class acts in the Baby Bok set-up in Jan Serfotein, Pat Howard, Paul Jordaan, Small-Smith and Kobus v/Wyk . Not to mention Jan Serfonteins centre partner at Grey Bloem and SA Schools in Dries Swanepoel, who missed out on the Baby Boks through injury and now contracted to the Bulls

We are fine at centre, let me assure you.

Ok Saff, I take your point, but how many of those will, in 12 years time, go down as Bok legends? I'll openly admit that I don't know the young players all that well, so there may be a few surprises coming from there. But the more established guys you've mentioned, Whitehead, Taute, Engelbrecht, Venter, Du Plessis are not world beaters. Okay, maybe Taute, but not the rest. 

 Well Bluebok, We have talent and legends aren't made in the beginning of careers. Regarding Taute. I know saffex likes him at centre. With this i am again not saying he is not talented, he is. But I personally think he is wasted at centre, he should play Fullback, and only focus on that.

I think it wrong to say the youngsters are not world beaters, they simply need some gametime. We can't simply expect a youngster S15 to suddenly become a bok without at least giving him a shot. Look at how the people viewed Etzebeth and Kruger before this tour.  JJ.Engelbrecht has the makings of a fine centre, but how will it happen if he doesn't play? And I also really like the looks of Ebersohn, but he will need to bulk up a bit more.

Disagree Ek, we need Taute at 13 as Jeans days are numbered here. Taute played 13 at school and for the Baby Boks and Mitchell reckons he would make a good 15 but a great 13.

Who knows which of these centres will come shinning through. Centre is such a difficult position to impress at test level these days. Just think about the centres playing test rugby at the moment - none are ripping shreds out of defences.

Whitehead has impressed me this year for the Sharks, he was our best 12. Frans Venter has the makings of a quality centre for the Bulls as does JJ.

Of the Baby Boks - Jordaan, Serfontein and Howard look like stars in the making

bluebok i agree with you 100% the other make valid points but in short we dont breed world quality centres. thats the bottom line. its our general playing pattern and lack of coaching skills that dont develop these types of centers. we have some young talent but either they are very very small and lack in certain areas. franna steyn himself was also almost lost to become either a 15 of flyhalf if not for injuries and eddie jones that spotted his talent. franna offers alot at 12 with his massive width and speed on his passes something we just dont see from any other 12 in the country. at the moment he is mule trying to bash his way over but we all know the massive skillset he does have with ball in hand. what will change at the sharks just hope Hm spots this

the mix of great centers are generally the more creative (vision) passing 12 together with the hard line running quicker bigger no 13.  the 10 12 channel is where the whole backline feeds from so that is the pivot of any backline.the outer backs must feed of these 2 positions. they are the glue in the backline. de jonge and co are forced to play 12 and that as we all can see disrupts the ball flowing from the backline. he is a elusive runner but lacks vision and hand speed and passing.

the junior players are decent but not world class and will only be fixed with we have the coaches and talent scouts that can access a players attributes and make sure he fits into a team. players like de jongh taute jj engelbrecht sadie are okish no 13 but the vital no 12 is still in my view die biggest problem area. venter and serfontein are very much on the development side now so lets hope they have great senior skills coaches to help them develop and learn.

Saffex

I beg to differ from you on the isue of Whitehead.   He is to my mind not an international player.   I agree with you about Serfontein though - he really is a class act. at 12.   

The other issue I have a problem with is Taute - we are indeed in trouble with reagrd to full backs, as is the case with the present series.   Kirchner is not my idea of a good full back and if Lambie is not available - we really have a problem in that position.   I would rather see Taute at full back.   My pick amongst the youngsters as no 13 is Jordaan - but there are a number of contenders for 13 as you mentioned.   The question is - what other centers are available to cover for Serfontein.   I can see Howard at 13 and perhaps even Van Wyk - so we have to think carefully about developing further no 12's.   

Personally I think that in the 4 Nations Serfornetin will be in the squad - he is miles better than Meisiekind.     

zane when he joined the blue bulls was great running attacking fullback but the bulls managed to break down his attacking skills and instead created this robot kicking fullback that we are now seeing today. same goes or joe peterson too. the major unions really need to employ proper backline coaches or else we will be confide to watch the kirchners of the world bombard our tv;s weekend and weekend of dull boring mindless rugby. the talent is there if just not develop by the relevant coaching teams.

when campese was at the sharks there level op backline play was taken to another level. we need that type of skills in SA

As carpetmuncher pointed out, maybe there is just a problem with the rugby culture in South Africa that is reducing the quality of our centres. I still stand by my point, when last did South Africa produce an o'Driscoll, Nonu, Umaga, Mortlock etc? 

 I think they called him Danie Gerber. And i think South Africa has officially only produced about 2 legend status centres in Gerber and Mannetjies.  the one's we currently have we will see in the future if they will become legends. so i won't be too bothered if we don't produce a legend. as long as he is good enough to make us win.

oh and i don't consider ODriscoll, Nonu, Umaga or Moprtlock legends yet, only time will tell.

or a danie gerber ???? SA has a long list of great past centers wynand claasen ext ext but the coaches to be dont have the skills to play a style that involves breading centers. much like NZ dont breed a massive amount of forwards because there playing pattern breeds backline players. that is were there focus is

everything up and too our club rugby is really working but its from there when the real problem starts and i blame the relevant coaches that are in charge of the age groups at the unions. they overcoach and dont have proper knowledge of backline play. most of the times they are forward players themselves and dont have the skills and forsight.

but you see EK the problem is if the players are quality the results and the wins will take care of themselves. the results will come if the players are great players. not halfbaked under developed players punching above there weight. if we focus on developing players and the teams that they play for will reap the massive rewards. o driscoll nonu umaga and mortlock are great centers and teams they play for and the stats speak for themselves.

all our junior teams and super rugby teams need proper backliine coaches not the robbie flecks of the world to develop and learn.

 Yeah I agree, but i'm with Saf on this one i think we have enough. it's just a matter of time. I don't see a need for panic yet.

I agree with you about the issue of coaching - it really is problematic.    Over the past 15 years we only had one backline coach of note and that was Du Plessis.   All other coaches were forward players in their youth and none really looked at decent back line coaching.    The talent is available - but the coaching not so.   Unless that issue is addressed - the back line will always be sub-par and that obviously also goes for the centers . 

if saru wants the boks the be the best in the world and leave a legacy then every player needs to be the best in the position. i do mean every player. 1 to 15. they need to max the skills rugby knowledge and develop the players to a level never seen before. rugby intelligence goes a long way in helping players cope with match situations ext. AB have been doing this for years. that is why there system is so perfect because they are focused on creating and developing a player and not team first. the likes of du plessis, alan zondagh danie gerber skils needs to be used and teached to other backline coaches and then we can raise the level of coaches. even bring guys like campese to help the sharks ext. we just need to understand where are shortcummings are and in time we will be unstoppable. we will then be at a stage when we can even pick 2 tier centers for example and even they will be able to complete at a high enough level. look at the stormers and there backline but how poor they are ??? what will a coach like du plessis do with them and in turn what will help out national side as well

Disagree Mike, Whitehead showed he deserves a crack at test rugby. Was by far our best 12 early on in the season. Great illusive running, setting up the Sharks backs

I am with carpet muncher. The backline coaching here is poor. Hence why did Meyer pick Loubcher who is not even the bulle backline coach!

If you cant make decent test centers out of youngsters like Jordaan, Serfontein (This guy looks a really good prospect), Small Smith etc you have a problem and its not talent. Then we have young players like Taute, JJ, whitehead and Frans of course. But backlineplayers always look btter in functioning backlines. Take the cheetahs backline. Now that is about the only really functioning backline with few stars in it.

The coaching issue, like the underperforming scrum, has been a problem for some time. Meyer gets in Pieter de Villiers to work on the scrum - great but selects an unproven nobody as backline coach. Get in the best available I say.

a normal thinking person wil think along those lines beeno but the coaches still see the backline coach as n person that is only is meant to bring the balls along to practice and play a bit of touchies with the guys before training. i have seen the boks practice and  the backline coaches dont have any input. loubcher was a decent player but has no previous experience. just like the plodder Allister Coetzee and look at how wonderfull the stormers backline is.

SARU needs to ammend this because they are not doing anyone any favours by apointing bad coaches at union level and international. robbie fleck ext dont deserve to be in the any team yet there are coaches that are way better but are still condemend to the backwater clubs and unions.

you right beeno serfontein looks the goods but he wont reach his full potential because he plays for the bulls where backline talent go to die sorry to say. he should have gone to the cheetahs or sharks

I have to agree on the issue of back line coaching - we had wonderful backline players years ago.   People mention Gerber and Mannetjies Roux - incidentally a very small guy - but we also have had Naas Botha, Divan Serfontein and further back Dawie De Villers and also Jannie Engelbrecht - but those days we had coaches knowing how to coach back line players.   Nowadays the tendency developed in SA to view the backline as a decoration and play ten men rugby.  

As a result our backline players are never really performing - even though there were really good youngsters coming through.   Unless the powers to be change their approach - we would never have a decent competive back line to fall back on.

great players all developed by the mentality of running rugby. at there time they were part of a team that dominated every team.

they were great players because there skills very superior and they knew there running lines and how to attack ext ext. things our players lack. they out ran the AB's on there day.

it comes back to the fact we need to change our approach or we must be happy being just competitive and enjoy the odd win here and there. the public wants to see us attacking rugby. tries scored and were we are all over the oppposing team. I still feel SARU needs some backline advisor and he needs to advise all the teams and backline coaches on the way forward.

Centres don't mature like a good wine.....they have an immediate bang when they arrive. Nobody doubted Gainesford, Mannetjies Roux, Danie Gerber, Jean, Marius Joubert , O Driscoll, Nonu from the first moment they saw them in action. All these newbies like Taute, Whitehead, Venter and Engelbrecht that Sapp keeps calling for......are not mega talents. They are test foot soldiers.....hopefully we have better talent behind them.

Moz, that is what I have been trying to say all along.

 Well then unfortunately you will have to wait another 14 years until my son turns 18.

Well Ek, then I guess we'll just have to wait :)