Saffa coaches have a tendancy to take heros and change them into hasbeenos.

Leave old stock alone...let them phase themselves out in dignity making retirement money overseas. They turned legend John Smit's impeccable record into a bit of a fiasco by keeping him too long...people remember you on how you go out, not how you begin and your accolades and achievements along the way...there is nothing shorter than a Saffas memory...only lasts one week. JDV's case is different however he is still playing well and is auguably still one of the best centres in the world...the captain bit is good here too but don't fall into the John Smit trap. This could easly happen to Bakkies and perhaps Bismarck far into the future...Victor at least had the brains to know when to go.

You also see this with great boxers who do not know when to call it a day...they come back only to humiliated by lesser opponents.

Bakkies...does not make sense...mentor EE and PSDT??...these youngsters don't need it...they are doing fine and Bakkies will only teach them to head-butt and eye-gouge.

Saffex is right...the tendancy to scratch in the cupboards for old ammunition is very irritating and detrimental to our talent potential in this great game.

Seb

You are right about that one.   Something that stuck in my mind was when my father took us as small boys along to watch the Springboks play in a test at New Zealand.    One of his best friends was the prop Chris Koch - who was playing as a prop for the most time ever in SA rugby history at the time.  Koch made a complete hash of the game and was a major contributor to a Springbok loss by giving away two penalties - easily converted by Clark.  He ruined his reputation in that game.

The situation is consequently nothing new.  Many players ruin their reputations by over-staying their welcome in international sport.  The really great sportsmen read the situation and prefers to go out in a blaze of glory.   Take for instance Michael Phelps - to my mind the best swimmer ever.   He saw a threat coming through from one of his friends - Le Clos - as well as other young and upcoming swimmers and bowed out of competition at the young age of 27.   Ryan Lochte at  on the other hand is staying on at the age of 29 ad is beginning to lose more and more in swimming.   Another example is the great Federer - who seems to lose more and more tennis matches and should probably have called it a day last year. 

You are right about rugby players as well - also in the case of John Smit in particular.  The NH club players seems to play in flashes.   Much was written about Fourie du Preez as an example.   He was excellent in the one-sided Pumas game in Soweto when he came from the bench.   In the next game he played in against the Aussies - he was still good - although he did make some mistakes as well.   Against the AB's he was bog ordinary at Ellis Park - seemingly running out of steam. 

If that could happen in the case of as good a player with a massive reputation - what could happen to other NH club players of lesser quality and reputation.  I for instance - is not convinced about Steenkamp as well - he plays well for a maximum of 20 minutes and then vanish from the scene.  Is the same going to happen to Bakkies Botha for instance?

I for one believe it is dangerous to invest in NH club players - who have been out of tests for up to two years and also really too old to improve their game.  To my mind players rarely maintain their performances once they go over 30 years of age.  There are exceptions - like De Villiers and Habana - but they are rarities. 

And you are right about Botha' mentorship too - "and Bakkies will only teach them to head-butt and eye-gouge. "        

In any event - we should only use club players if all local resources prove to be inadequate in key positions - not a free-for-all as is evident at present.

Ten out of ten for you and Saffex in this case.  

Yes old Maaik...it's sad...instead of bowing out gracefully man's fragile ego and foolish pride sometimes is the greatest deluder of all...happened to many sportsmen (strangely not women...they do not suffer from this disease and are far more graceful and honest with themselves). Boxers are perhaps the worst, movie on Jake La Motta (Robert De Niro), Raging Bull is a good example and there have been scores of others.

Some of them...hahahoho end up fighting SBW...I really think that's laughable.

Doesn't effect golfers though...most of them just move on to Senior's circuit...met an old pro the otherday, Barry (cannot remember his surname...there's a street in Bloem named after his late father who was the mayor there...I think it's Franklin) from Bloemfontein...used to be a Springbok golfer and represented on the PGA ,played alongside, Jack Nicklaus, Bobby Locke,Gary Player and many many greats...even won the German Open.

He was unfortunate...met a terrible car accident which changed his life...he is a decent and humble guy...certainly not a bullshiter and we often watch the rugby together in a local pub/restaurant in Botha'shill.

Yes old Maaik...it's sad...instead of bowing out gracefully man's fragile ego and foolish pride sometimes is the greatest deluder of all...happened to many sportsmen (strangely not women...they do not suffer from this disease and are far more graceful and honest with themselves). Boxers are perhaps the worst, movie on Jake La Motta (Robert De Niro), Raging Bull is a good example and there have been scores of others.

Some of them...hahahoho end up fighting SBW...I really think that's laughable.

Doesn't effect golfers though...most of them just move on to Senior's circuit...met an old pro the otherday, Barry (cannot remember his surname...there's a street in Bloem named after his late father who was the mayor there...I think it's Franklin) from Bloemfontein...used to be a Springbok golfer and represented on the PGA ,played alongside, Jack Nicklaus, Bobby Locke,Gary Player and many many greats...even won the German Open.

He was unfortunate...met a terrible car accident which changed his life...he is a decent and humble guy...certainly not a bullshiter and we often watch the rugby together in a local pub/restaurant in Botha'shill.

Beeno

Stop talking crap.   This is not about doom and gloom - it is about selection strategy.   We have seen in practice that the NH club  players often enough fail in the final analysis.

It represents a backward step to load a squad with them and leave out the younger players - who should be mentored by other experienced players in the team already - not by has beens of the past.   Tell me - are we really all that worst off without most of the NH club players?

After all - we need to start looking at 2015 WC - not so?

I did not single out Meyer only, Beeno...he did not coach John Smit.

Guys, please listen and read correctly in context of what's been said...that's how useless arguments develope and go off at a tangent.

It is not an individual criticism on anyone in particular but an attitude, mindset or whatever you chose to call it. There is merit in some things HM obviously does but it is spoilt by extreme and staid conservatism.

Beeno, if the wheels come off because "the test is tougher than the tournament" adage because the "old crocks" bearings are not as well oiled as they used to be, then the selector goes into a panic syndrome and needs major repairs without guarantees. Rather do it right in the beginning...run in your team in with genuine good new parts for the long road to the WC.

Beeno: Bok planning is starting to look like desperation !

Bring in young players, no bring in old players, bring in Bulls players no that's not working; bring in Bulls game plan, no that's not working. Let's try running rugby, damn we lost again. Let's copy the NZ system of central contacting...

Yup, you guys are really lost, we can only sit back and hope you get it right eventually.

Just_win trying to give you guys some perspective

Bugger

What have you got against De Villiers - our best backline player together with Habana and Willie le Roux?  What is wrong with his captaincy in any event?  I am really looking forward to your response - I am missing out on laughter today.