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FORUM / RUGBY /  Saffex and Sub Tzu - the great Francois Steyn admirerers

Saffex and Sub Tzu - the great Francois Steyn admirerers

Started by clevermike16 REPLIES297 VIEWS· 27 Jan 2014, 18:55
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jan 2014, 18:55
#1
27 Jan 2014, 18:55#1

Thiis issue has been dealt with earlier after I gave a detailed breakdown as to why Francois Steyn was ineffective as a 12 after his return from France.   I expected some response from the above two members in the issues raised in the following issues raised by me:-


"Sharkbok


Your assessment is correct as to what is required from a 12.   I want to quote -


"The crashballer must be big, heavy and fast."


'The crash must be a run between 2 backline players to pull in opposition backs to create space. "


Those are two critical issues and one has to ask some serious questions I intend to deal with in this case.  


Big, Heavy and Fast issue


There is no way that any athletic player can be the height of Steyn weighing in at 118 to 120 kgs.   The accepted ratio between height and weight of such a player is somewhere between 105 and 108 kgs,  118 to 120 kgs may be fine for a prop forward  - provided they have a broad bone structure, but certainly not for a backline player like Steyn.   He does not have the built of a prop - he was a rather slim and stringy guy of about 98 to a 100 kgs in 2007-08 - when he was in his top form.


The fact that he is 20 kgs heavier means that he carries too much fat in his system.  That inevitably means that it effects his speed and athleticism.   It has one other negative.  In defence Steyn has shown deficiencies stemming from his lack of speed.   If a player runs straight at him - no problem - running at an angle and at speed and there is a grave problem.   Just go and look if you can at the brumbies game last year and you would see what happened.   Unfortunately that was not the only game it happened in  and his missed tackle ratio is higher than it should be.


Summary :   At present Steyn is BIG - but way to HEAVY for a backline player - with a NEGATIVE AFFECT ON HIS SPEED.    

 

Running Lines of Crashballer


There are a number of issues here insofar as Steyn is concerned.   One relates to the line of running - ie aiming at a position between two defenders - ie drawing in one defender to create space.  A second equally important one is his bodily position and aim in carrying the ball.


The problem with Steyn is he does not aim at a space between two defenders - he runs straight at his opponent.   That could be the result of his speed deficiency already mentioned - but one thing is obvious and has been proven conclusively since his return from France and that is that he has never created space for his teammates by drawing  in defenders.


The second problem is more difficult to explain.   I have looked at Steyn's bodily position when carrying balls.  He is bent forward in running with balls - aiming to brush defenders aside by using his shoulder and arms (much like a Bismarck, Etzebeth and other forwards do)  and in the process rather than to try and break through defenders by carrying the ball at speed the  angle  result in two things, namely - 


*   his aim has an inevitable result - already aiming to be going to ground when tackled - he goes down when the first tackler gets to him; and


*  the bodily position prevents him from making accurate ball off-loads in tackle situations.  


Insofar as the latter issue is concerned - Steyn's off loads consist of dropping balls back and not passing them in tackle situations.   However, it also means that the crashball and off-loads result in an inevitable maul - not carrying on with the attack.


Members of this site thinks I am against players because of prejudice or ignorance - but I make a study of players in virtually every game they play in and if there are tendencies I would pick them up.


One other requirement missing in Steyn is ball sense and making of quick decisions.   He was tried at one stage as a flyhalf - but it did not work out - he took too long to make decisions.   At center he plays a one-dimensional game - he is utterly predictable and he hogs balls because of that single-minded approach.


Steyn - when I first saw him play at full back - was a miracle player.   He then had speed as well - something that went amiss in recent years because of the weight issue.    He has had more time at full back to decide at issues - and can with speed run at an angle to make life difficult for opposing teams.   Last year he played at full back a few times and he did carry the ball - but was ineffective because of his speed deficiency.   In one case where he did succeed in breaking a tackle and put the next player in space  - and that was a sole one -  the resulting pass by Steyn went so far forward the recipient could not get to the ball.


SUMMARY


There are in fact a number of issues White would have to get right before Steyn would be an effective no 12.   He would have to get him back to the required athleticism by getting him to a reasonable weight of not more than 110 kgs at an upper limit.   He will have to get him to run faster - which could be done only with a reduction in weight.   He would have to get him to change his running lines and style - and ultimately - he would have to get him to become effective in off-loading of balls after making space for other players.


Will White succeeds in getting the improvement and will Steyn be successful in getting over his deficiencies is he big question?   I hope to see better results - but have my doubts - there are just too many hurdles to overcome in this  case."    


RESPONSES


Ceradyne concentrated on the weight issue only claiming that somewhere in March 2013 Steyn got his weight down from 118 kgs to 110 jgs - which according to Plumtree was still 4 to 5 kgs too heavy.  The impact of weight on speed got lost in the process - and the serious question remains - what is his present weight and speed?   Hopefully it will not be above 110 kgs.


Saffex basically said I was lying about Steyn's tendency to hog balls - nothing about the rest of the issues raised.


Sun Tzu wrote a praise song of how good Steyn was in all aspects of the game and  

how I was lying about issues.  Nothing about the very serious other issues raised above.


FURTHER COMMENTS


i responded as follows to the rather wild allegations made by Saffex and Sun Tzu - to which they did not respond - proving that I am correct on the issue:-


I really think that you make some unproven sweeping statements to try and detract from what I wrote above and will consequently dealt with it statistically:-


Steyn - the ball hogger 


Steyn's bad reputation started off when he played in the tests in 2012 - where he jept possession of balls 725% of all balls handled and rarely passed balls to other players.   However, those stats are not readily available and I am now going to give you the stats for the four games he played in for the Sgarks last year before he was dropped from the team:- 


Balls handled     =      68


Balls kicked        =       9   -   13,4%

Balls passed       =      27  -   39,9%

Balls kept          =      32   -   47,9%


The above figures was an improvement on what he did in the tests in 2012 - but is still way sort of acceptability.   Is Steyn a ball hogger?   with those stats it is clear - he is one.  The chances of another player getting a ball from Steyn is less than 4 out of 10 balls he handled.


Off loads


Because he is in tackle situations in the wrong bodily position effective off-loading of balls in his case is non-existent.  In the vary rare case he may try to off-load balls it is a case where he tries to throw a ball back towards team mates - but since it does not represent a pass to anyone in specific - they must scramble to recover the ball and the end result is that they are even in a worse position than Steyn was.


None of his passes or off-loads in fact resulted in appreciable terriroty gain by the teams he represented.


Defenders Beaten


In the four matches under review Steyn -


*   made 1 line break beating 2 defenders; and

*   in the other three matches Steyn broke  4 tackles,


Not at all impressive taking into account he handled the ball 32 times.   That is not convincing at all - he does not routinely beat defenders at all.


Summary


I do not hate Steyn - I always was an admirer of his and am severely disappointed in what I saw of him since his return from France.   What I wrote is not based on lies and in any way ignorant or deceitful.   It represents FACTS and not generalized hype of big words without proven substance.


I have written before that I wish Steyn would be back to the player he was in 2007 and 2008 and hope to see him recover form - but he has not recovered form and the question is - will he recover it in future?   If he keeps on with what he has been die since his return fro France - he is no asset to any team he plays for. 


IS THERE REALLY A PROBLEM 


I believe there is a problem - I think that Steyn lost his mojo - and is regretfully not the player he used to be.  


I tried to prove by example of what I believe went wrong in the case of Steyn and refers to serious issues that is amiss in his technique and physical condition.   I expected a furious retort about the latter issues - but got none at all.


I expected to be torn apart by Saffex and Sun Tzu - but got nothing in return - no motivated response to point out where I was wrong in my assessment of the overall position affecting the performances of Steyn, 


I regard this as a particularly serious issue and would like to hear from contributors about it - especially with the Super 15 getting closer and the impact Steyn can have on the Shark's campaign this year.  What is your motivated viewpoints as to the above issues.  


     

             



SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Jan 2014, 19:19
#2
27 Jan 2014, 19:19#2
Another lump of crap written by Mike, you're not taking anything into context and I'm also betting that there are a few white lies in there to support your dumbfounded disliking of Fransie. 
He played immensely in RWC 2011 and had a good start to last years Super 15, but after he got injured and the poor coaching of Plumtree there was too much going on for him to continue the form he was in. He got hung to dry by his own coach for Plumtree's mistakes. 
Don't think your love child Jordaan played well on the weekend, did he? Didn't notice him one bit except for when he was getting pummelled by Saracen attackers.
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
27 Jan 2014, 19:58
#3
27 Jan 2014, 19:58#3

Clevermike,

                You will live to see Steyn in the Green and Gold later this year and next year.

                 He has all the skills required to compensate for his weak outside center and Captain.

                  You seem to forget that fact that he played at #12 while Morne was the flyhalf and serving him up with no chance or space to getting going and blasting through the Aussies and All Blacks.

 

                   I have always looked deeper for the issue that cause a player to appear out of form perhaps you should as well.

 

                   Stay tuned, watch and remember Steyn wears #12.

 

Regards.

AJ

AO
Admit OneClub Pro389 posts
27 Jan 2014, 20:37
#4
27 Jan 2014, 20:37#4
 
AO
Admit OneClub Pro389 posts
27 Jan 2014, 20:41
#5
27 Jan 2014, 20:41#5
Duplication
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jan 2014, 23:33
#6
27 Jan 2014, 23:33#6

Shezza


Get it straight - there are no lies thrown in their - it is the actual stats and actual description of what Steyn is doing.   I would like to see Steyn performing well enough and even to see him play for the Springboks - provided he earns that by performance.


I used to be a big Steyn admirer and was all agog about his return from France -  but that feeling turned sour because of poor subsequent performances.  He was just not up to standard.  


I wish he would get his form back and start playing thinking rugby.  If he manages that - I would be his strong supporter.   If he jeeps on doing what he did over the last 17 months - he is not worth having him in the team.   So lets wait and see what he produces over the next two months and see whether he has made the required progress.      


By the way - you did so well in the fantasy sport competitions last year - why don't you join up again?  Test Rugby is running two competitions - one on the 6 Nations and  one on Super 15 - and Foxsport is running one on Super 15. 


I was severely critical of Jordaan last year - am criticial of all under-performers.   If a player plays well - I praise him - if he does not - he lays himself open to criticism.  And I check may facts before I criticize.


Lets hope Steyn gets his act together for the Sharks - but only he can and that remains the point to be proven by him. .  


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Jan 2014, 23:34
#7
27 Jan 2014, 23:34#7
Pure class.......great step and plenty of power and a good few offloads.......and to think that some fool does not rate him.......ignorance of the highest order
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jan 2014, 00:12
#8
28 Jan 2014, 00:12#8

Saffex


I rate performance and  would dearly love to see -


"great step and plenty of power and a good few offloads


But Steyn has shown zero of that since his return from France.   I will rate him highly if he has shown something like that.   Pure class  produce the goods - he has produced zilch over the past 18 months.


If you produce real examples please feel free to do so - praise singing  words is meaningless without proof. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jan 2014, 00:14
#9
28 Jan 2014, 00:14#9
Rubbish, he was our best 12 early on in the S15 before he got injured.......I recall plenty of good from Frans and very little negative. 

The guy is class
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jan 2014, 00:25
#10
28 Jan 2014, 00:25#10

Saffex


Sure - everyone is a fool,   Steyn was our best 12 - but he was replaced because he was so good.   That is really hard to believe.


I gave the stats about Super 15 above above - there was near to nothing good in his actual performances.


The guy CAN BE class if he start performing a hell of a lot better,



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jan 2014, 00:28
#11
28 Jan 2014, 00:28#11
He was replaced by a coach who got sacked for being useless, you get the picture........Plum selected Bosman at 12..........say no more.

Jake will invest in Frans at 12 all season for he as already gone on record saying he is a special player.......Jake is spot on
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
28 Jan 2014, 00:51
#12
28 Jan 2014, 00:51#12
I don't Steyn was his best last season by any strech but he was far from terrible, I don't there's any Springbok fan who doesn't want to see him back to his best as he's always been a special talent. And another boot in back line is very useful. I think Jake will get him back to his best and hopefully the bad luck with injuries stops too.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Jan 2014, 01:02
#13
28 Jan 2014, 01:02#13
F. Steyn terrorised NZ teams in his early days. I hated to see him kick those long penalties for a win but he is a very good player when at his best. 
Hope he does well in 2014 just not against kiwi teams 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jan 2014, 01:12
#14
28 Jan 2014, 01:12#14

Saffex


Hardly believable - Plumtree got fired because Smit wanted a new coach - not  because he treated the under-performing Steyn so badly.  The team under-performed and that is a price the coach will pay for that - even if under-performance stemmed from an unbelievable injury list.  At one stage there were 19 of the 36 Sharks squad members injured and they had to run around and borrow players to get a full match day squad of 23 players.


In the meantime the much-maligned Bosman is doing very well for Stade Francais so maybe you under-rated him and over-rated Steyn.    


Hope is not disillusioned  b y Steyn like the case was last year. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jan 2014, 01:29
#15
28 Jan 2014, 01:29#15
Crap, Plum got fired for making poor decisions, one of those was moving Frans to 15 and playing the useless Bosman at 12.

Bosman is doing stuff all over here.......he is not good enough to make much of an impression.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jan 2014, 07:21
#16
28 Jan 2014, 07:21#16

Saffex


How many games of Stade Francoiais have you watched before you made the remark about Bosman?   I know its prejudice speaking again.


Look - you are welcome to your believe that Plumtree was fired because of Steyn.   That has nothing to do with the issue of Steyn's performance in Super 15.   Statistically and in play Steyn was poor in the tests in 2012 and in Super 15 last year.  I can still recollect the sagas you wrote on this site to justify his atrociously poor play in the tests in 2012 - where you said inter alia that the only role of a 12 effectively is to crashball. 


He has the opportunity to show that he can produce the goods this year - that is if he gets really fit and do something constructive during games.   White is not going to nurse him all year long because his name is Francois Steyn.  He will not keep him in the team of he does not perform.   It will be interesting to see what happens this year in Super 15 - if Steyn only did what he did last year  he will not last to the end of March.    For the sake of the Sharks I hope there is some improvement - but I will not put any money on that one.        

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jan 2014, 12:54
#17
28 Jan 2014, 12:54#17

I have seen many games and Bosman is his usual self unless you believe that he has drunk some sainted water from a French spring and turned into a wonderful rugby player!!

 

 

I have never said that Plums treatment of Frans was the sole reason he got fired......read my posts properly.......I said it was one of the reasons.

 

 

Frans does not have to improve anything, he is fine just as he is  

— END OF THREAD —

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