sam cane over matt todd.

this is one topic which has sparked a bit of debate amongst the kiwis, and i would like to here more on the matter or any others thoughts on the matters.

for me sam canes selection in 2012 was a huge shock, especially over matt todd who not only had by far the better season, but was also one of the comps best the previous year in 2011. (brycy, this is one selection which IMO roadblocks ur hansen is pro crusaders theory).
add to that cane was not even the incumbent at the chiefs for the majority of the games in both 2011 and 2012, and one cant help but go hmmmmmmmmm??? o_O

but when cane got the opportunity to play for the All Blacks, he took his chance and held it on to it for dear life with performances which left me smiling and nodding my head in approval. those performances are what makes his selection in 2013 very very easy to swallow.

but while i dont mind cane getting picked, i do feel for matt todd and for that matter luke braid too, both have had better seasons then cane.

one issue i read regarding todd is his physicality, sure he can hold his own against spXV and what have u, but getting into the tight stuff is not really his strong suit and that might be an issue against some of the more physical forward packs like the Boks.

Bok forwards might move at a snails pace, but the breakdown and set peices those same forwards are involved in, i feel tood might struggle a bit on the physicality side.

it dosent really matter, cos king richie is the incumbent, and cane, todd and braid are at the moment just working on their All Black election campaigns, with cane currently having the lead.

all this could change once ardie savea establishes himslef as the hurricanes incumbent, cos IMO ardie will be the incumbent No7 once McCaw retires.
 

 Sasuke san: you pretty much sumarized it the way i see it. Cane, once he gets in that AB jersey is a really good player. For some reason this is what it takes to get his top performance.

I think in the Chiefs set up his talent does not fit as well with the players around him & the system they use. Plus the guy is young & they want to grow him. I have also heard of his leadership ability in the ABs to he must be smart & have credibility if he is listened to.

Put it this way, I like watching him  play in the ABs & hope his development continues.

...Sasu we all know yr the Crusaders biggest fan and re Cane, haven't you been saying the same sort of thing about Messam all year? Showing yr colours there bro.

Only had to read yr Crusaders vs Chiefs match preview to see how lowly you rated the Chiefs.  Hope you did'nt lose too much money on that one mate.

And the thought of Dagg playing for the Chiefs even had you saying i hope the Chiefs will lose with him. Mate. Classic diehard Crusader fan stuff.

So it can be hard to take what you say seriously sometimes and i'm sure yr still trying to pull my leg about  former Crusader coach, Canterbury coach and Canterbury rep  Hansen not having a soft spot for Canterbury...

All good to have a bit of competition for positions though and great for NZ rugby to see we have so much depth. Just hope Hansen can inspire the ABs as Rennie has done so successfully with the Mighty Chiefs....

Sasue, you do seem a man who believes his word is final and he has been sent here to correct us all and "show us the way" so to speak. This is obviously a forum so there is no right or wrong. Its based on everyone's opinions. Example, you may feel that the Crusaders are still NZL's powerhouse but Brycy may feel that the Chiefs now edge the Crusaders. Its your opinion vs his. The only one that needs showing of the way is Rooiprick. Mind you, he hasn't even got a clue so not much to work with. Maybe send him a few pics of little boys and cocks!

I read your quip on the other post (love how you take every opportunity to put the boot in to the Boks) about how the Boks pack is slow around the park and all the rest like how we take a whipping all the time. Bismarck slower than Mealamu or Hore? Louw slower than McCaw? Spies slower than Read? Etzebeth slower than Retallick? Its in your head Sas..Bigger..Yes..Slower..No...

AB's record is better than SA's..Yes..AB's are a team with better direction and structures..Yes..That is likely never going to change unless SA drops politics from sports and we have only passionate rugby men involved in the make up and guidance of our team.

Take a look at Jake White and what he did for SA rugby. Look what he has done for Brumbies rugby. Need I say more?

A rugby brain of note and he was on his way to putting SA back on top of the pile. He recruited another great rugby brain..Not the hapless Loubscher. Rather the insightful Eddie Jones. Read his book and you will learn why his results still were not where they should have been. Take those negative influences and quota's out the picture and let Jake get on with it and the AB's wouldn't have the record they have now. That is for sure. Jake was building something special and he was not afforded the space and time to do it.

Let me ask you something Sas..Was Henry ever told on the eve of a test match to drop McCaw (Burger) for TJ Ioane (Tybilika)? Was Henry ever told to drop Cowan (Pienaar) for Helleur (Conradie)?

There are just some things NZL rugby will never need to understand and you can be thankful for that.

Then we get a nobody who knows even less about the game (Rooipoes) tell us that Jake was flop. Ha ha that is when I knew this man may be more stupid than we think.

@ boklogic

Springbok record with Jake White at the helm:

Year  Played  Won  Lost  Drew  Win ratio (%)

2004    13        9        4       0          69

2005    12        8        3       1          67

2006    12        5        7       0          42

2007    17        14      3       0          82 (World cup minnows)

TOTAL  54       36    17      1          67

In 2006 & 2007 the Springboks came last in the tri nations winning only 2 from 4 and 1 from 4 respectively. Jake white's win ratio got progressively worse right up till the world cup year when his stats looked significantly better for playing the minnows. He won 2 and lost 2 against Ireland, won 1 and lost 2 against france, won 3 and lost 6 against NZ. I would be very dissapointed with that record...

So what did Jake White do for the Soringboks? As far as I can tell, he gave them an unenviable record. And of course a world cup. Who did they beat to obtain that? 

How on earth you can compare the bok & all black loose trio's for speed is beyond me.

Anyway back on topic.... Sas, I do see what you mean about Cane's physicallity. I always thought todd maybe a bit small but could be that he is not imposing himself enough in the physical department. Still, on merit alone, Todd can consider himself hard done by. Cane has definitely put in some big performances for he all blacks though.  

@brycy,

i love all NZ teams, but id have very pro crusader views, prob ingrained in my rugby thinking after watching super rugby, but IMO u would have to be a die hard chief to say that cane has been better then todd in both 2012 and 2013 and that messam has been good in 2013.

latimer has been the best chiefs best openside, canes been good, but his perfor mances havent been worthy of All Blacks selection, in saying that after watching cane have a great AB debut season, his selection this year is something i dont mind.

messam has had an average season, i can recall a handful of good games from him this year and the rest were like messam up to 2011, where he just goes missing.
to his credit he saved his best for very last, cos he along with retallick were easily the best in the final.
the reason i never had a problem with his selection though is cos hes now like nonu, his value to the All Blacks dilutes the effect of his current form.

did i really say i hope the chiefs lose with dagg??? my bad cos that does make me sound like those crusader fan douche bags who only love red and black and nothing else.
but my dig at dagg was not a dig at the chiefs, it was aimed at dagg. highlanders are my 2nd favourite team having being raised in southland, so when he jumped ship to the crusaders the same year he debuted into the All Blacks, the news of his possible depature stired up old resentments as dagg was looking like rugbys equivalent of a gold digger.

the crusaders v chiefs summary was IMO unbiased but accurate? would like to know ur thoughts on what area u thought the chiefs were better then crusaders before then.
and no i didnt lose any money, i picked the saders to win based on current form and the whipping they gave the chiefs in chch a few weeks earlier, but just like last year, the winner of the all NZ semi final would win the comp and it wouldnt be worth the bet,

...Sasu not much difference between our top loosies to be honest but to exclude all the Chiefs from the ABs after a couple of great seasons would make Hansen look much more one eyed than he already is and I WILL OBJECT  TO THAT lol.

Lets just agree to disagree on Messam as well but team captains of winning sides are obviously putting in more than what you can see on yr TV screen . He also captained the Maori ABs and has excelled at sevens playing for best New Zealand sevens team of all time and twice winning Gold at the Commonwealth games.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term mana but he has it in spades.

 Complicating views on Cane is the way he was used by Rennie in conjunction with Latimer but less game time counts for nothing in my book as Ranger showed for the ABs when he came off the bench for example.

 Conflicting approaches to utilizing Cane by Rennie and Hansen also adds to speculation such as yours. Wouldn't be too many players that are fitter than Cane though and it was him on the victory parade with the Mighty Chiefs yesterday not Todd or Braid.

Finals football is not the same as games leading up to them either so maybe thats where you went wrong  - giving the Crusaders complete advantage based on one game the Chiefs did'nt even need to win as they were already NZ conference winners 10 points ahead of the next NZ team. 

Pointless also getting into who's better Cruden or DC either as we all know Hansen gunna go for Carter everytime. They are both great players and that puts us in good stead for the next WC.

Makes you wonder where Benji will fit in or if at all given his AB aspirations and Barret also being in the standoff mix.

You guys are talking Cane and Todd up constantly but I see no mention of Brad Shields.

I was impressed with him this season. Awesome ball carrier, strong, physical, reads the game well and has a high work rate.

Both Todd and Cane played in winning teams and because of it they're made to look good. What about the talented dude playing in a team that had a poor season? Shouldn't he too be given a look.

Cane fires hot and cold. There's no consistency. Can't rely on him to fire when it's most needed. The Kiwis spoke of him as the next best thing to McCaw. Can't say I agree.

Had a good look at him his season because of all the hoohaa and personally between the two I much prefer Todd. Had an awesome season. Plays with his heart and gives it his all every match.

Oh and Polly ... for your information ... personally I feel the Bokke no longer have an excuse to cling to. We have the players and the talent to challenge you. It's not your fault if our coach is stupid.

He was hired to do the job. He is after all part and parcel of the Bok team. If it's his stupidity that costs us matches then we should accept that we lost as a whole.

It's time to take it on the chin move on from this lame and feeble absurdity.

@brycy,

bro, im a born and bred kiwi, of course i know what mana is, lolz, u would have to be pretty ignorant not to know, lolz.
i agree that theres nothing in it regarding the top loosies in NZ and that includes brad shields who cleancut mentioned.

so lets agree to disagree regarding messam, but i never thought his NZ maori or 7s performances were ever poor, i thought they were class, just that his super rugby form and All Black performances before 2012 were average at best, though he did have the odd superstar game for the chiefs, form the most part i was like meh.
like cane though ive got no probs with his Ab selection, especially if that last game against the brumbies is anything to go by.

with cane ur right its not the quantity of game time which makes me say todd had better seasons, it thes quality of their performances with the gametime they had which makes me say that todd was better.
i can just remember more fames where todd was more instrumental to the crusaders cause then cane was to the chiefs.
i dont doubt canes fitness, but IMO the top dogs in that category are all roughly the same level.

i dont agree with the premise that the chiefs had nothing to play for against the crusaders in chch, yes they only needed one bonus point from their last two games to lock up the NZ conference, but it wasnt the NZ conference that was on the forefront of their mind, it was their lead on the overall conference which was only 2 pts over both the bulls and the brumbies at the time, a lead which was jerpodised by the beatdown in chch, but luckily the stormers came through in fine fashion to do a chiefs a solid when they beat the bulls to level it up, though the whing of the saffa fans here made it even sweeter when they played the ref card once more saying the ref in the blues chiefs game made the bulls lose to the stormers, LMFAO, :oD

the heavy advantage i gave the crusaders was prob swayed on a lot by that rnd 19 clash, but as i was writing it and comparing the players, it was hard fro me to find a single area where the chiefs trumped them on.
i would really love to hear ur thoughts regarding that chiefs vs crusaders match ups and the way u saw it compared to the way i did as i posted in the link below.
www.sarugby.com/forum.cfm

its not pointless debating whose better out of cruden and carter, as that was my next topic of discussion regarding the All Blacks, lolz.
in short, carter is the best 10 in the world at the moment, and cruden is the 2nd best 10 in the world. we are in very good steed though heading into the RWC and wondering where benji fits into all is the $400,000 question.

..Sasu i see you're still torturing yrself as to why the Crusaders fell to the Chiefs. Like i said finals football is a totally different kete of fish.

It's true the Crusaders are a team of champions but as often the case a champion team will beat a team of champions so individual matchups count for little.  Understanding why that is the case might help you see why the Chiefs were the better side.

Also testament to Rennies influence and the culture he has created at the Chiefs. To me Rennie should be the next AB coach without question.

I see he's heading off to the States to look at the operations of  a major baseball club and the NFL so the guys a brilliant coach and 100% dedicated - already looking ahead to give the Chiefs that edge for next season and not just putting his feet up .

Can't forget Wayne Smith either who has also been instrumental and one can't speak too highly of the contributions he's made towards the Chiefs success.

Aaron Cruden - After beating cancer i'm wondering if there's nothing he can't do. I could rave on all day about how instrumental and inspirational he's been for the Chiefs.

Carter could have won the game against the Chiefs but was that a choke at the end there ? Carter also tends to be injury prone does'nt he and not sure about his defensive record but he had a shocker against England so just as well Cruds is there to ensure the ABs carry on their winning ways should anything happen to DC....