Schalk versus Marcel....the missing element

This is not for the biased, so if you don't want to be open minded....don't bother. For the rest, I'm sure like me you're wondering why both the Stormers and the Boks were so toothless of late. This might be part of an answer:

Coetzee vs the Poms

20  runs for 26 metres

5 passes

10 of 11 tackles.

Schalk versus the superior Aussies

16 runs for 38 metres

17 passes

11 of 11 tackles

2 lineouts.

So yes Schalk does run more productively. He does provide a lineout option. He is a little more secure on defence. And I would argue he does much more of the donkey work required to get, maintain and speed up possession.

But crucially he passed more than 3 times as much as Marcel. Why? Because with his uncanny attachment to the ball, he is so often there to provide the crucial link to keep a move going. Marcel doesn't have that ability....nor does the disconnected Spies.

Ask why the Stormers( and the Boks) seem unable to sustain a phase, and you have your answer there. Marcel is a fine young prospect, but he doesn't provide what Schalk does. So the news that the big man is struggling to get back is bad indeed. We may just have seen the last of a true Bok great.

Moz as much as I was a Schalk fan, there would be very little point in bringing back another old man. Coetzee has been outstanding in the S15 and has carried that form into the test arena. Sure he is not going to create the same impression as he did at S15, but he still turned it on and was easily our best forward in PE.

You say Schalk plays that linking role, when many of us get irritated with how Schalk used to always target the opposition and charge right into them.

I believe Marcel is a better allround player and will get better with time. He is the future

Dave not every young player is going to be better than a Bok great. You obviously missed Schalk's linking role which was a big part of his game last year. More of a secure,  than a great,  runner, he added this new string to his bow. And it has been very effective.

Coetzee was unable to provide what Alberts provided in the first two tests. He is not a powerful runner. Nor is he any factor on the ground as Schalk was before his neck surgery. So he is pretty much a smart player, providing useful mopping up operations. My guess is we will discover it's not enough. He needs to make way for Brussouw.

Yep I must have missed that in Schalk, I have not been that impressed with him for sometime.

As for Coetzee, he is a class act and will play many tests for the Boks, he was never meant play like Alberts, that was down to Potgieter.

Coetzee has shown great running skills, he does not only rely on the straight route, he is able to beat the man with pace and gile. He also gives it 100%, much like Schalk. I have not picked up on his linking role, this is something he needs to work on.

I think the options at 6 are playing a guy like Coetzee or an out and out fetcher like Brussouw. Both should remain in the picture, as should Kolisi as an option at 6. Coetzee is 6'3 and 106kg, so if he puts on 4kg he might be an option at 8, where he played at school

@mozart,

stats arent the be all end all of every story and it can be greatly taken out of context, but their is some clear misrepresentation on ur part in trying to discredit marcel coetzee when comparing him to burger.
u obviously only used their stats from the last game, but its two completely different games against different teams with the test matches in completely different circumstances and surrounded by completely different teammates.

here are the rest of those stats u rather suspiciously left out,,,

marcel coetzee vs england
tackle breaks - 2

offloads - 3

lineouts - 1

penalties conceded - 1

handaling errors - 2

schalks burger vs wallabies

tackle breaks - 0

offloads - 1

penalties conceded - 0

handaling errors - 3 (including one that led directly to horwils try)

ur stats plus the ones i just provided, tell a much different story then the one ur trying to portray, cos coetzee did a lot more efficent with the ball he had in hand then what burger did with his and IMO coetzee was still just as physical, but a lot smarter then the Bok flankers of late.

burgers still a legend and theres still plenty of Bok level game in him, but coetzee is the future of Boks rugby, one of the form flankers at spXV and one of the form flankers during the spXV test break.

In my humble opinion I think that Coetzee's game is slightly different to that of Schalks.

1. Coetzee is 20 years old. We need to realise that he is still developing.
2. Coetzee's support play is fantastic!
3. He may not offer the size and bulk of Willem Alberts, but his running lines are superior. He seems to be able to make bullocking runs into small gaps... unlike most SA forwards who tend to run AT oppisition.
4. I've always felt that Schalla's best rugby was at openside!

So how about Schalk, Coetzee and then Alberts at 8 (his best position).

That combo will offer us explosive size and robustness at breakdown.

Shit its really great to have such amazing depth at 6,7 and 8

I have seen enough of Coetzee to realize that he is a youngster with massive potential - like what I saw.   This guy is a person who have made huge strides in the three test playued by him thus far.   Will not say that he is equal to Schailk Burger  - because that would be unfair towards a player who have just started his international career.

Burger has been around for years - and has made a name for himself over the years.   However, we may have to face up to a major problem in the case of Burger - whether we like it or not.   I definitely am a great supporter of Burger and his loss to any team will be a loss to the country.   He has been out of rugby for virtually the whole Super 15 season because of injury and was hoping to come back in July.   Now the news is that his knee is not yet healed and he will possibly be out for the whole Super 15.  

If a knee injury has not healed in 5 months - is it going to heal to allow him to continue his career in rugby?   That really is a problem for all of us.   Hope I am wrong and he comes back sooner than I think - but it is really not a good indicator. 

 Out of curiosity Moz, Is it possible to give us the same type of stats from the S14 as general. Between Kolisi, Coetzee, CJ Stander and Brussouw.?

would be interesting.

This is where we need a good coach, because a good coach eill know at which point you replace the legend with the talented youngster. There will come a time where Schalk is no longer good enough to keep the younger guys out of the team, but I don't think that time has come yet.

the missing element = brussow

@flash...

I Totally agree on Schalk and openside with WIllem at 8 and Coetzee on blindside.

Could be a killer trio!

Not a bad trio at all Chippo. I would really like to see how Marcell goes at 8. Wish the sharks would give him a shot there

Remain unconvinced that Burger would be available for the 4 nations and even for future selection.  I his knee injury has not healed  in five months - when will it be ever be healed?

It is  worry but it would appear Alistair genuinely thinks Schalk wll be back. Cant believe all the injury problems at the Stormers This lions match is taking on an ominous feel. Elstadt also out for a suspension.

Hope Quin Roux is fit as I would like to see him again. If he is fit he and bekker could start with de Kock at 7. Bench Etzebeth who I hear also has an ankle niggle. Bench Jean and also Habana. Alistair has said Kitshoff will get a rest which s fine as he can easily be covered.

End up with a very strong bench to be used if necessary

Hang in there guys.

Well Sasu I was simply trying to focus on the important bits. As you point out Coetzee had two more offloads and defenders beaten ....but he also conceded a penalty. Schalk also beat him 2 to 1 in lineouts.

I could have used the second test or the first test for comparison or a series average, but as you can clearly see the third test actually was Coetzee's best.:

So did I leave those out "suspiciously"? 

I was making one fundamental point, that Schalk is involved far more often as a link. It wasn't a dissertation, just an observation. Coetzee is a fine young player, I had him amongst the 5 Youngsters For the Future posting I did a while back. But at that point I worried about his ability to physically impose himself at this stage.....and I still worry about that. We missed Alberts in the last test and both Potgieter and Coetzee couldn't fill the gap.