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Scrums are my playground

Started by biltongbek33 REPLIES660 VIEWS· 22 Oct 2014, 12:54
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BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 12:54
#1
22 Oct 2014, 12:54#1

Hey guys, as there are a number of discussions about props at the moment, and I was an average club player I thought you might enjoy this story, I wrote it some time ago.



It is midwinter of 1992 and Edenvale is taking on Germiston Simmers, a tough opponent. A few minutes into the first half and its time for the first scrum. I am looking forward to this, this is where I shine.


Scrum time, made for overweight blokes with short necks and strong backs.

I set up for the first scrum.


First I have to make sure Kobus, my lock (he isn’t the brightest cookie in the cookie jar) hits me under my hip and not my lower back. It seems you need to remind him with a tap to the head every time you get ready that he isn’t tackling or hugging you but getting ready to push.


I ensure I get my bind onto my hooker by pulling his hips tight and get my arm around as far as possible on his shorts to ensure I remain straight.


Then I go down into my prone position – heads up as to stare into my opponents eyes, looking for the first signs of intelligence.


You can tell someone’s intelligence in two ways in my opinion. Tell them a joke and see if they get it, or in this case, see whether the expression is dulled or whether the eyes are awake and alert.


“Not much going on there” I say to myself and wait for my halfback to bring the ball closer.


In my prone position I have my left arm ready for the jab.

 

It is a technique I have perfected over time. the aim is to hit the inside of the armpit a few inches down, enough to give me the leverage over my opponent. In the same motion I will hit the armpit, swing my elbow out and lock my shoulder perpendicular to the ground.


Then I will transfer my momentum straight forward and up, not that far up to pop him. But to put into practise the lesson my physics teacher taught me many years ago: no matter whether he is stronger than me, I am underneath him and therefore have the advantage.


The shoulder in the locked position keeps me straight and unless the guy is a monster he isn’t going to be able to twist me.


Our hooker gives the tap on my shoulder (the sign for the hit and the feed, in unison we go forward. The halfback has seen the tap on my shoulder and feeds the ball.


It all goes swimmingly.


I hit the spot. In the same motion I level my elbow out and lock my shoulder. GOT HIM.


Now for the next test, see if I can push him. Yep, it works, I have the upper hand.

It isn’t too long and we have another scrum, their feed.


As I get prone to strike and look into his eyes I am disappointed, still nothing there. Oh well, same old same old. It is going to be an easy day in the scrums.


You see, the exciting and sometimes scary thing at scrum time is the ability of the opponent to react and recognise what you did the previous scrum to have control over him.


There is a glimmer of intelligence and he will realise how you beat him. He will now know that the speed of the bind is where I aim to beat him, and if he is intelligent enough and quick enough he can beat me.


Sadly this guy isn’t going to do any of that.


For me, my power lay in how I could use my whole body from my heels through my hips, to my shoulders, all in one straight line and effectively lock up being inflexible and almost impossible to bend or buckle. By having my shoulder locked it was almost near impossible to be turned inward or bent.


The challenge at scrum time is an art. I suspect every prop has his own techniques.

Admittedly I wasn’t a very big prop, only 92 kg’s fighting weight, even in those days smallish for a prop.


But irrespective of the rest of the match, every scrum for me is a challenge, one I have to win.


Although there are eight forwards in the pack, it is a one on one, as fair as you could possibly have in any sporting code.


Him and I. Our technique and our strength will decide each battle.


Sure I like doing the other stuff to, like run straight.


I can’t sidestep a mosquito or run faster than most but I love getting the ball, dropping the shoulder and bashing the hell out of some unsuspecting back.


But it is at the scrum where I shine, it is my playground, employing the art of beating your opponent again and again.


It has little to do with whether I got a penalty awarded to our team, it has little to do with any of the other 14 mates in my team, just me, him and the battle.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:06
#2
22 Oct 2014, 13:06#2
 
Enjoyed that ... pity it ended so soon.

I was eagerly waiting to see who the victor was.

Even though it's a team sport ... I can see how one takes it personally at prop.

It's all a matter of pride.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:12
#3
22 Oct 2014, 13:12#3
Having never read the Kama Sut ra could you tell me whether there are any "group activities in there"  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:15
#4
22 Oct 2014, 13:15#4
 Its a dark art and enough said Cloudy!! 
Only those who have played prop can really understand what the heck is going on!! 
So BB what is giving the Lions props and edge in your opinion?
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:20
#5
22 Oct 2014, 13:20#5

To be honest I haven't watched them extensively, but from what I have seen they scrum straight first and foremost.


I am a firm believer the technique of staying straight is the most important one if you want to dominate scrums. If you saw this past weekend, unlike when someone scrums in you can go through the opposition scrum.


I haven't watched their technique in detail but will pay more attention this weekend.


Strangely they aren't the biggest front row around, which would suggest that technically they are well coached.  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:31
#6
22 Oct 2014, 13:31#6
 I hope so Cloudy!!!Yes their front row is not big and neither are the locks. Pack weighs in at about 880 kg.Would be very interested in your views here BB. I suspect a number of SA coaches are wondering what is their secret!
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:35
#7
22 Oct 2014, 13:35#7
Biltongbek, that was a nice piece. I was a hooker and I can tell you that the personal duel between the hookers was just as fierce as the contest between loosehead props like yourself and your opposing tighthead.

For what it's worth, in my experience looseheads are marginally more intelligent . . . or should I say marginally less stupid . . . then the tightheads. Not sure why that is but while most of my looseheads were as thick as two very thick planks tied together with a very thick piece of string, the tightheads I played with were all drooling half-wits with only the very faintest sentient spark . . . almost as dim as Baboon-ou . . . except a lot stronger obviously. No wonder you never saw much going on when you looked in their eyes.

Anyway, always nice to have a fellow forward on board. Someone who knows the frustrations of grafting tirelessly to win the ball only to see some hair-gelled nancy-boy back knock it on or kick it away to the opposition and then you have to gird your loins and go back and try win it all over again. Piano players and piano movers is a good distinction between forwards and the foppish backline mincers.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:42
#8
22 Oct 2014, 13:42#8
 
Coaching can only take you so far. Look at Coenie. He's been taught by the finest loosehead to play the game. Still ended up a failure

Talent and technique plays it's part ... sure ... but in the end raw power rules. Without it all the technique in the world will get you nowhere.

You agree biltongbek?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:53
#9
22 Oct 2014, 13:53#9
 CC two players of equal strength  - the better technique wins. That includes the entire pack.
Personally I don't believe the Lions pack is in pure strength terms necessarily better than the Sharks. I believe it' s a lot to do with technique. 
Lets face it the Lions pack was the best scruming pack in the Super 15 . Why? Again I don't believe their lightweight pack was the physically strongest in the comp.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:55
#10
22 Oct 2014, 13:55#10
 Big talk from ou rooitwit as he shares his experience of primary school rugby!
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:01
#11
22 Oct 2014, 14:01#11

Agree cleancut, you have to be strong, specifically your back and neck, and it helps to have tree trunks for legs.


It is technique that will set you up, much like a golfer needs a consistent technique to address the ball.


I used to play 8th and flank at school, started as a flank when I played club rugby, but then moved to prop as my speed was, well, slow.


My first few matches I had no idea what to do and got badly bent, then with coaching started to understand the dynamics of scrumming, contrary what Rooinek believes  I am rather intelligent and could work the physics out for myself.


If your technique is poor, your setup can let you down no matter how strong you believe you are, but technique alone won't do it either.


Coenie rolls into the scrum when he plays tight head, and rolls down when he plays loosehead, that tells me his technique is not correct, now unless he is as dense as Rooinek suggests props can be, OS is not doing a great job in coaching him.


As an example when my Son moved to tight head, his biggest problem was the loosehead he scrums against aren't only bigger and heavier, but taller than him, so my advice to him was to pull the player down.


But it is important to understand what is meant by pulling down a loosehead.


If you pull a guy down after you have taken your bind the scrum collapses, if you pull him down in order to fold him double to restrict the flow of air in his torso you take his power away.


Hope that makes sense.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:10
#12
22 Oct 2014, 14:10#12

BB my technique was to position myself 15 metres from the scrum......13 metres laterally and 7.5 metres in the north/south axis. I quickly calculated this using  the Pythagoras theorem. I always looked at my opposing flyhalf to get a sense of whether he was likely to understand the angles we were about to deploy. If his socks were pulled up to different heights, I always knew we had him. Flyhalves solve higher level problems

 

 

Biltong d o you have any theories about the ideal physique for a prop these days? Seems we are drifting to taller props, presumablty for better lineout support.

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:14
#13
22 Oct 2014, 14:14#13

Mozart, so you played deep for a flyhalf?


I prefer shorter tight heads, the most difficult props I ever face were the short ones, they are difficult to get under as a loose head, so basic physics can't help you when a tight head is shorter than you.


But again, if the opposing loosehead is much taller than you then he can easily lift you out if he is a strong specimen with decent technique and knows how to get under you.


It is a difficult one to answer. From experience I hated short tight heads.

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:18
#14
22 Oct 2014, 14:18#14
 " Pythagoras theorem" huh Mozart?
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:23
#15
22 Oct 2014, 14:23#15
 
Mozart's been harping on and on about the taller props being better lineout support.

He seems fixated with it. Over and over. Rather tiring.

It's never dawned on him that a tall prop with a shorter lock evens it out.

Just nod and hopefully the senile old fool will go away.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:24
#16
22 Oct 2014, 14:24#16
Biltong taking the ball to the line was a mug's game....wait for some nice clean space! I always wondered about Carl Hayman. The  guy was 6' 4" and the best tighthead in the world for 5 years. When he started playing up north he was still in a class of his own in my view. His subsequent non selection for NZ was a  good example of how serious NZ was about protecting their local game.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:26
#17
22 Oct 2014, 14:26#17

Yeah, Hayman was and still is a great tight head.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:27
#18
22 Oct 2014, 14:27#18
You are being a bit "illusive" Lumpy. Bwahahaha!
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:27
#19
22 Oct 2014, 14:27#19
biltongbek

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 40 RE: Scrums are my playground
October 22, 2014, 13:20:28

To be honest I haven't watched them extensively, but from what I have seen they scrum straight first and foremost.


I am a firm believer the technique of staying straight is the most important one if you want to dominate scrums. If you saw this past weekend, unlike when someone scrums in you can go through the opposition scrum.


I haven't watched their technique in detail but will pay more attention this weekend.


Strangely they aren't the biggest front row around, which would suggest that technically they are well coached. 



I think that you have it spot-on. It has much more to do with technique and basics than with size and weight. I was involved with amateur wrestling and was with SADF Wrestling in Voortrekkerhoogte.

The head coach was Arrie Dekker. In the days when the N Tvl front row was Heinrich Rodgers, Uli Schmidt and Jan Lock, the coach (John Williams) knew Arrie and he knew that there was something that the rugby players could learn from wrestling. He gave Arrie a call to "pop in". Arrie took eight of the bigger wrestlers along. There are normally not a lot of real heavy weights around and the biggest at Defence Wrestling at that time was a guy who weighed around 120 kg. Then there were a few biggies at between 84kg and 90kg, IIRC. In any case, when they arrived at the training grounds the wrestlers who were available were smaller the rugby players. The rugby players were busy at the scrum machine and they were pushing it around. John and Arrie sorted the wrestlers and decided which ones would be props, locks, etc in the scrum. The rugby players were surprised that the wrestlers were pushing the scrum machine around with much more ease than them. They then put the two packs together and the wrestlers gave the ruby players hell.

Arrie then started explaining and showing the rugby players how the wrestlers set themselves up and how they hit in when they wrestle. It seemed that the actions and techniques used by wrestlers fit scrumming like a glove. The position and strength of the shoulders and the grip on the opponent, the balance, as well as the working of the hips and legs are very important in both scrumming and wrestling. Keeping a straight back and working straight forward is as important in wrestling as it is in scrumming. Look at this clip and watch how both the wrestlers get their backs straight and start working with their legs as soon as possible, whether on attack or in defence:



Check out Coenie Oosthuizen's back when he scrums. He hardly ever scrums with a straight back.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:34
#20
22 Oct 2014, 14:34#20

 Very telling indeed Ceradyne, I used to do judo as a teenager, and similarly to wrestling you learn how to use your weight and momentum as well as where to grip.


I have always been of the belief, Judo or Wrestling is essential if you want to play rugby.


NOt only because of what you learn, but the manner in which you build muscle fits perfect.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:42
#21
22 Oct 2014, 14:42#21
 True BB. Most boys who we had at our wrestling club, and I suppose the same goes for other clubs as well, were good rugby players as well. Many well-know rugby players were also good wrestlers.

Grant Esterhuizen was an SA Champion in wrestling as well as Judo. He was at our club for a while. Others that I know of were Doppies Le Grange, Lukas van Biljon, Uli Schmidt,  Frans Erasmus, Willie Hills, Jaques Olivier, Johan Marais (Springbok rugby wand wrestling)and Gerrie Sonnekus (Springbok rugby and wrestling). There are a lot more, but those are the ones that I can t hink of right now.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:43
#22
22 Oct 2014, 14:43#22
 Hell. Why would S_chmidt be filtered out?
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:44
#23
22 Oct 2014, 14:44#23
I moved to prop from hooker when my weight gained and intelligence dimmed. As I got older some of the younger guys became stronger and better schooled in propping which I countered by taking advantage of the fact that all our refs were back type guys who had little interest or understanding of scrummaging tequnique. I developed many ways to make it look like the opposing prop was collapsing the scrum and took delight in alerting the ref to my oppositions indiscretions. Of course I only resorted to this when I was being out scrumed. These days I am delighted to see the wallabies similarly take advantage of refs and it brings a smile to my face when we get a scrum penalty for stepping back. Not to many ex front rowers run around as refs.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
22 Oct 2014, 15:26
#24
22 Oct 2014, 15:26#24
 BB knows what he's on about there ! As boys we were into wrestling like our dad ,bridging excercises made for those necks BB was tallking about and shearing developed the back !  The best instance of getting into the opposition props head space I achieved was when I was playing Randwick in the 80s and happened to have stepped out my opposite numbers sister the day before .Upon mentioning this chaos ensued and he chased me off the paddock !That was a bit ungentlemanly of me but quite effective !Judo and wrestling were handy playing league as a kid and I see it used all the time now ,Anyone not in the front row is a sea-gulling SOB anyways ....
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 15:55
#25
22 Oct 2014, 15:55#25
Claydog, I mentioned the Wallaby tactics on "that other website" (not sure if I may mention their name) during the RC this year and copped a lot of criticism for suggesting their technique is a little "illegal" but I suppose people like you would have a better understanding of what I meant
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 16:05
#26
22 Oct 2014, 16:05#26
 
I too did a lot of wrestling as a youngster.

Definitely built up my upper body strength.

All you beer bellied front rankers (hookers included) should confess your sin. It is not because of your physical strength that you happen to be playing in the front row but rather the size of the sack of fat hanging below your chest.

You use it to lean on each other at scrum time and then we all fall down ... don't we ... only to get up and do it all over again. 

It's not wrestling or judo that got you there but rather cheese burgers, pork pies, gallons of beer and large quantities of pizza.

Confess your sins you bunch of lardasses.

Friggin wrestling my eye!!!!!!!!!


BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 16:11
#27
22 Oct 2014, 16:11#27

I take exception to that Sir!!!


Do you know the dedication and money required to get that "sack" under the chest?


No, you certainly don't with you Herb drinks, Celery sn acks and perfectly gelled hair! 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 16:20
#28
22 Oct 2014, 16:20#28
 
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!!

What was I thinki ng!!

I apologize!!!



WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Oct 2014, 08:13
#29
23 Oct 2014, 08:13#29
 Yup the only time the backs get their hair mussed up is when they take their pristine jumpers off on their sway to the "sauna ".When all the other wee boys are crying uncle and thinking of chardonney its the forwards who keep all those micro and major breweries solvent ,plus whole bakeries and pattisseries !Its tough I know but hey .....
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
23 Oct 2014, 12:55
#30
23 Oct 2014, 12:55#30

Backs are sissies as well.


In a training session one day the second team (us) were playing against the first team.


My brother in law was inside center for the first team and his brother the left wing for them, because of who they were I always wanted to tackle the snot out of them, but due to their superior pace and the fact that they played out wide I seldom got the opportunity to line them up.


On this day I received the ball from second phase, and as I started my run I saw my brother in law was defending the inside channel. I got all excited and decided I am going to simply run over him.


As I got within reach I dropped my shoulder in anticipation of hitting him full on and running him into the ground.


As I braced for the impact, he simply stepped aside at the last moment and I lost my balance, went to ground and my run was halted.


After the session in the change rooms I approached him and told him he was a sissy, his response to me was this "If you saw the expression on your face you would have given way too"  

CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
23 Oct 2014, 13:39
#31
23 Oct 2014, 13:39#31
All true wardad but there are forwards and there are forwards. Front row by name alone are the upper echelon. Then come the locks who would loved to have played front row but just didn't have the physique. The loose forwards were really backs who possessed that little bit more heart that allowed them to play with the real forwards without actually having to be bound to them. Cared about hair and moisturisers like regular backs but with just enough bravery to handle some more contact. At least that was the way I always saw it.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 Oct 2014, 14:06
#32
23 Oct 2014, 14:06#32
 
Not a sissy but intellectually superior. 

If I saw you hit the deck that day I would probably still be rolling on the ground hysterically.


BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
23 Oct 2014, 14:15
#33
23 Oct 2014, 14:15#33
I think he was seriously tempted to laugh too  
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Oct 2014, 17:16
#34
23 Oct 2014, 17:16#34
Spot on Claydog! There have been plenty of dodgy loose forwards who are just a steamed latte and a chicken salad away from being backline mincers.
The lower the number the player wears on his back the closer he is to being a real rugby player.


— END OF THREAD —

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