Serfontein stars in Orlando win

Rugby | Vodacom Super Rugby

IRB Junior Player of the year Jan Serfontein signaled his arrival as a senior as he starred in the Vodacom Bulls’ 38-32 pre-season win over the MTN Lions at Orlando Stadium on Saturday.

While pre-season games are hardly ever remembered for the result, the Bulls youngsters would have taken a lot of confidence out of the result against the Lions, who to their credit never gave up and pushed the Bulls right to the end.

Yet, among the flurry of talent that stood out in Soweto, there was none more impressive than young Serfontein. Already a rising star at junior level, the biggest question was always whether or not he would be ready to take on Super Rugby at the tender age of 19.

If Orlando was anything to go by, the answer is a definitive yes, and there were signs that reminded one of a young Danie Gerber. A player who seemed to have so much time and space no matter how many defenders were in his face.

The Bulls have a quandary though, and how they will handle their squad system will ultimately determine how well they do not only this season, but also in the future.

What Orlando did show, however, was the promise of the combination between Serfontein and Lionel Mapoe, and later on the incredible talent of Handre Pollard, who made a telling impact with his first tackle of the match.

But there were others as well. Springbok Arno Botha, fullback Jurgen Visser and wing Sampie Mastriet showed their skills, while Grant Hattingh and Jean Cook also deserved mentions for valour.

The Lions were more than competitive, and with captain JC Janse van Rensburg ruling the scrums, the duo of Derick Minnie and Jaco Kriel were busy in the loose, while Anthony Volminck and Andries Coetzee would be very at home at Super Rugby level.

Both sides showed an unbelievable amount of intent in the match, looking for opportunities at all times, but both also showed how much work they have to do in the future.

The Bulls raced away to a 19-3 lead, and should have been further ahead had Lionel Mapoe’s try been given. The TMO decision – which was three moves back, one more than the prescribed two – was called a forward pass, and no try given.

Other than the semantics of the decision though, the new TMO protocols have the danger of seeing referees refer every try for a decision on passing. This game was no exception and a clear warning on where this could end up.

After Serfontein’s opening try, Jurgen Visser scored the first of his brace and Hattingh added his name to the scoresheet to rack up the early lead.

The Lions weren’t about to be outdone, as Franco Mostert and Kriel both scored to pull the scoreline back to 22-17 at the break.

After a few early second-half penalties, the Lions stole the lead as Volminck sidestepped Tian Schoeman on his way to the tryline, but when Schoeman and Pollard kicked two penalties to restore the lead, the Bulls headed into the final moments ahead.

Visser scored to make it safe after another move started by Serfontein and although Kriel made the scoreline closer after the hooter, the Bulls had firmly deserved to win the match.

 They dont show these games on Sky, apparently Serfontein at 19 years of age had a strong debut

Sharkbok

If there was a MOM it should be Serfontein.   He had a fantastic game for a 19-year-old and was by far the Bulls best player.   This one has it all - speed, strong running, the ability to break tackles and the ability to score tries.   What distinguihsed him furher was his ability to off-load balls effecively and his reading of the game.   As a youngster he showed real class in doing things that our Springbok 12's have not been able to do this year.   Put him next to a decent flyhalf - and you would see soething really special.

Insofar as the match as a whole is concrned - there are some weak points in the Bulls side that needs urgent attention:-

*    Their scrummaging was questionable and I think they need to pay serious attention to that component of the game.

*     The line-outs was atrocious and they constantly lost line-outs on own throw - Mattfield  must have had the creeps about that one.

*     As one of the EOYT squad selectios - I looked specifically at the performance of Mapoe.   He showed very little on attack, but his defence was weak.    I tend to agee with Saffex - he is too small and light to be an effective center and should play at wing - will be very dangerous for the Bulls to play him at center.

If they want to be in any way in contention in Super 15 - they better .attend to the problems as mentioned.

Mike

Tx Boet, As you well know we don't get prelim games downunder....your take on young Serfontein warms the cockles of my heart, I'll be keeping an eye out for him in future as well as the others you make mention....but especially the young gun, boy do we need some young strong centres with old heads.

Why would you say that? We have plenty of young centres with old heads in SA. Serfontein is one of a number. But he needs at least one more year before he should be pushed into the Boks. 

Goodman

Our current Springbok centers at 12 are -

Jean De Villiers

Francois Steyn

Wynand Olivier

Jean De Villiers

He is 32 years of age this year - but still was the best performer of the 12's we played this year.   In the main he was average in performance is is confirmed by his stats.   Over the last two years he became more of a crashballer than he used to be.  The problem with SA Crashball centers are they run straight at a defender - not slightly to the left or right in the gap between the defender and the next player with a result that  -

 *   they do not  effectively off-load balls in tackle situations;

 *   their passing game is poor and norrmally badly-timed;;

*    they do not create space for other playes to run into; and

*    the only result of their effort are mauls frequently behind the gain line.

Since they are predictable - the line of play is from an attacking perspective counter-productive and lead to under-utilization of the backline as an attacking force.

The only thing that set De Villiers slightly apart from the others was that he did have a slight variation from the standard play a few times - I would say he crashballed 85-90% of the time - whilst the others crsahballed 95% in the case of all balls received by him.

Francois Steyn

Never once in the five tests he played in did he ran at speed with the ball in hand.   He was by far the worst crashballer since he on only one occassion in the five tests passed the gain line before crashballing.   He passed a very few balls to his outside center and on those occassions when he tried to dribble kick balls it was straight at the opposing player/s and caused us serious problems

He has the inherent ability to overcome the problems mentioned above - and the situation could be resolved by intensive coachng - but if he does not improve there is no way he should retain the no 12 position.  

Wynand Olivier 

Basically a crashballer - but he had sme disadvantages throughout his career - he constantly played outside of Morne Steyn - whoo is not an attacking or inventive flyhalf - and always was in th shadow of Jean De Villiers and Steyn.   Probably got a raw deal in the Springbok set-up - but I do not see him as a solution to our problems at center.

Other candidates for Potential Selection at 12

Aside from Serfontein and De Allende - thw other candidates are not really of similar standard.   I can think of Venter and Whitehead in particular.   Both are good centers - but they have somewhat limited ball sense and in reading of the game.     They have played on Super 15 level already and their impact was not really all that good.   One no 13 - who did play at 12 in the Super 15 level last year - and did very well - was Jordaan, but I still prefer him at 13 and not 12.

You are so against Frans yet you claim to of been his biggest fan. He was brilliant against England and was the most feared opposition for England along with Alberts (they threw themselves at Willemstad feet which I thought was hilarious). But he did slip up against the Aussies and Kiwis, give him some credit as the only real matches he played last year were internationals with the 1 or 2 tests he played for the sharks. 

Jordaan and Serfontain for the future looks like one of the brightest combos for centers in Springbok history with Serfontain reminding of the old French center. 

Goodman, you are spot on reagrding our depth at centre.......we have some real quality acts coming through, with Serfontein the top of the list.

We have young centres to burn in Frans Steyn, Taute, JJ Engelbrecht, Serfontein, Jordaan, Pat Howard, Frans Venter, Whitehead, de Allende, JP du Plessis, de Jongh, Sadie, Dries Swanepoel, Tyler Fisher, Mjekevu, Hanekom and Small-Smith

We have the makings of a great Bok centre pairing amongst this lot

Actually one can only play two centres at any one time. I hope Serfontein is the answer.....because Taute, Sadie, Engelbrecht, Venter and Whitehead are never going to make it. De Jongh is pretty decent, Jordaan looks very good andthe rest haven't played in games we can judge by.

Mozart

Have to agree with you here.  We actually have only three of the younger players players that MAY make the grade as Springboks centers and those are Serfontein, Jordaan and De  Allende.  

Given Mike knows fuck all about what constitutes a centre and Moffie kept telling us Fourie was useless and that Adi was the answer - I think its safe to say we can rest in the knowledge that anything these clowns have to say about centres can be taken with a pinch of salt.

We have some class centres coming through, everyone of those on the list are test material, its a case of finding the right partner for Frans at 12........Taute, JJ, Jordaan, Serfontein and de Allende head the list at the moment, but the rest are easily capable of making an impression when given the opportunities

Saffex

Come now - my friend - don't be nasty because I differ from you on the issueof centers.   You do not want to accept that -

*   That Taute himself, Meyer and Coetzee - plus virtually everyone else does not see Taute as a center and that his chances of future selection in that position is zilch; and

*   that Engelbrecht performances on CC level was ridiculously poor and if he cannot perform on CC level properluy - why should he be able to perform two levels higher.

At this stage we would see within the next couple of weeks who will mke progress in performances and who not.   However, not being prejudived and make fair assessments of how the players perform.  Hope you will do the same.

All I can say is that I am surprised on your view as to center performance criteria and the fact that you favour players that does exactly that in some cases and condemn other players because they do exactly the same things.   Balanced views are called for - not ridiculous generalizations.    From what you write - you are a grat believer in the dead backline concept and 10 man rugby - since centers cannot do anuything other than crashball when they receive the ball.  

Mind you - I am very much a Taute supporter - but was disappointed about his performance yesterday as a full back.   Maybe it was just early season jitters and I hope he will make the grade at Full Back - since I do not believe he will make it at center and he has no realisitc chance of being selected to play at center in future..   

Mike, nothing to do with difference of opions, I can confirm, I dont think you know what constitutes a good centre on the modern game........we have just witnessed 3 test matches this weekend - did the centres rip the defences apart as you clowns seem to think the modern day centre should do?

Fact is Taute was as good as the test centres on display today, most of whom are vastly more experienced than he is and as I said re JJ, you dont ignoranty throw in the towel on a player after one season, especially considering your take on the player is complete bullshit.

Mike you dont know what constitutes a good centre

Taute singlehandedly lost the AB test. I will kep reminding you of that as long as you keep talking nonsense Sapp

 Taute is finished at test level. Meyer threw him to the wolves by selecting him out of position. 

If he can have a good season at the Stormers then maybe he can be considered at fullback, but from what I have seen of him he is not an intelligent player. The boks need intelligent and skilled centres like Serfontein. It would not surprise me if he plays much of the season on the bench for the Stormers

Moffie it would be a little concerning if I took your view seriously, to blame Taute for the loss against the AB's is pure ignornace but hey ho.

Much like Sharks take on the guy - pure an utter ignorance

 Dumpy Dave, you are like a thick trader riding his losing trade into oblivion.

Moffie, the problem with anything you have to say on centres is that it is somewhat soiled by the fact that you rated Adi so highly and thought Fourie was so poor - this is a fact, I cannot take anything you say on centres seriously .

Centre comments from a man who saw so much in so little and saw so little in so much are hardly going to get ones attention now are they?

As for the trader comment would that be from the man that did the market research of the provincial city of Leeds!!!?

 But not the guy who rated Olivier, Murray, Whitehead, Sadie, Engelbrecht, Taute and Burden asBok centres. Huh? Nobody gets it more wrong than the Dumpster.

Ah Moffie there really is no need to lapse back into the art of bullshitting.

Olivier was a quality back-up to Jean, I never selected him as my starter ahead of Jean unlike your stupid call of Adi over Fourie.

I had Murray as my back-up to Fourie, far better bet than useless Adi - so Moffie thats a lie, I never selected Murray as our Bok 13

Whitehead, Taute, JJ and Sadie are only at the start of their careers and all Bok potentials.

Burden played 13 at U20 level and was the best 13 I saw at that level since Rathbone, my call at the time was that he was Bok materia and then when he got injured I proclaimed and stand by the fact that Muir got it wrong turning him into a hooker.

So Moffie your lies give you no credit at all. I was not the clown who thought Adi was great and that Fourie was useless. My 12 was always Jean and my 13 was always Fourie - fact, as I know a centre when I see one

 So I picked the guy who led the centre stats in the 2008 TN, and was chosen by at least half the writers for the TN team of the year. You chose the centre who ended up as reserve hooker for the Sharks. I wonder who won?

Crap Adi has never lead stats in his life and no writer would ever select useless Jacobs - thats just lies. Jacobs has NEVER been good at test level, stats or no stats.

As for Burden, I NEVER selected him as a Bok centre, I said when he was U20 he looked like Bok material - spot the difference you thick shit?

 So fat man if you never selected Murray, who exactly did you select when Fury was hurt. As for Burden you had him in the Bok squad at centre and howled when the Sharks repositioned him

I never said I never selected Murray, I have always said I selected him as Fourie's back-up, never ahead of him.

Unlike your stupid self who would have selected the useless Adi ahead of Fourie and therein lies the difference.

Who is the ignorant rugby mug here. Adi over Fourie, injured or not - go figure

As for Burden, bullshit he never got to play outside U20 level as a centre as he got injured. I NEVER picked him in the Bok squad. I did say the Sharks repositioning him was a waste

Saffex

You are one of the best identifiers of talented youngsters and you see them  as potential Springboks and loyally stick with some of them for years to come - irrespective of what happened in their subsequent playing career.   Mozart is really not fair to constantly remind you of that aspect - there is no real prolem with that aspect and everybody really think that in doing so you are bringing players to our attention at an early stage.

However, there is one major problem withthat situation.   A  junior player has a lot of development too do before they can really ultimately be considered for Springbok selection.   Even the most promising juniors sometimes do not fulfill their early promise and only a small percentage of players ultimately succeed and get through.   There can be a variety of reasons for that and I will name in  few cases some some typical examples:-

*     Junior rugby can be influenced by the physical element to a much higher degree than is often realized.  Some youngsters develop physically faster than others and in junior rugby physicality is much more important than in higher levels where physicality is required together with talent (ball sense) and as Etzebeth so clearly pointed out a tendency to be a workaholic insofar as the game is concerned.    Take for instance  the case of Burden.   He was a junior player well advanced physically - and because he was so strong - it hid away one serious deficiency - a lack of real speed.    Strong runner - without the speed element required was at junior level not so noticeable - it became a problem when he started his senior career with the Sharks.   There were long debates in the media about his speed problems - even before he asked to play as a hooker - since his career as a backline player was not showing any signs of futher development and he actually was on the way out of even CC rugby.   The choice was not made for him - he himself decided about it.     However, making that switch had one basic advatage for him - it kept him in provincial level rugby - without it he ws a goner and would only have one way out - to find another much weaker outfit to  continue his playing career on either wing or center.    The disadvantage was that he ends up as a back up player for Du Plessis and that he would be the perrenial bencj hooker.  

*     Some players - fo a variety of reasons , the most important one being physicality - are on junior levels playing in different positions than those they play in in later years.     Take for instance Taute.   He did well as a center on Under 20 level - but then ran into a brick wall insofar as selection for the Lions - both on Super 15 level and on CC level is concerned.    The Lions selectors stuck with their established centers of Doppies la Grange and Hollenbach and there was no real place for Taute.   With his immediate future in mind Taute himself accepted as far back as 2010  that he would have limited opportunities as a center and when it became possible for him to be seleted at full back - he accepted the situation and dedicated him so much to the new position that he really did very well in that position.   It was only in April 2012  that the Lions was in serious trouble when both Hollenbach and La Grange was not available to play at center - that the Lions decided to move him to center.    However, his experiences in playing at center on senior level was non-existent at that stage and he was injured before he could really make any headway as a center.    Matter of fact he did not show much as a center for the Lions before injury.    I think the lack of opportunity to develop as a center on senior level was a very real problem  and when Meyer seleted him as a center - thiat deficiency or lack of experrence  as a center,  resulted in some real problems in performances - and he was really on the point of losing a very promising career - when he was accepted by the Stormers and they agreed to play him at full back in future.   Taute would never have made it back into the Springbok team a a center and he and everybody else in rugby management knew it and accepted it.   He did not play at full back for nearly a year and yesterday he wasto a substantial extent disorientated in performin at full back.   Despite a qustionable start as a full back - I still believe for him to remain in contention on higher level he will have to concentrate on playing in that position in future 

*     Due to the issue of early physical development many juniors can get away with deficiencies in skills and in fact often enough do not really have skills and ball sense that would be required from them on senior level..   This speifically happen in backline positions where ball skills and reading of games are obviosuly important.  This problem is not helped by a string of coaches who actually try and coach skills out of backline players.   In essence this resulted in players like Morne Steyn being totally ineffective as an attacking flyhalf and concentrated on kicking, on centers like Francois Steyn runnibg straight at defenders, getting tackled and crashballing without even an effort to off-load balls in tackle situations or drawing more defenders in to create space further out and players like Hougaard playing a dumb game at scrummie.    Physically there is no problem - but physically they are  like tightly programmed computer operation - totally predictable and not contributing to sound team performances.    This tendency can be reduced by decent coaching - but it is rarely or never really done properly and the players became less effective as times go on.   

Whether you like it or not - taking all five tests Francois Steyn played in this year into account - he was really ineffective as a center.    Other than the charge down try in the Argenitne test - he never played any roll in any backline play that resulted in a try being scored by the Springboks.   He showed some serious speed deficiencies on attack as well  as well - deficiencies that caused him not to get over the gain line or being tackled before he reahed that line - statistically in all his plays he gained an average of 1,5 meters over the gain line whilst in possession of the ball.    I am delighted by your statement that the speed  deficiency has been worked on and it now improved upon - but whether his endency to run straight at defenders and not aim at the gap between the opposing two centers has been eliminated is still not clear.    If as stated by you his speed did improve and he can run faster than ambling along after receipt of the ball aater gettig of the mark slowly would help a lot  - he would  improve his performances and by running that way - he could get over the gain line and if he then pass or off-load the ball effectively in tackle situations he could create even minor space for other players.    In essence - Steyn did in the last showed some skill in attacking play - but this year it was really absent.   

Be it as it may - I still believe that there are extremely rare exceptions like Etzebeth and Marcel Coetzzee - most juniors must force their way into the CC teams  and show real performance skills and from there progress to Super 15 level.   Without them showing the required performances on those two levels - they cannot be serious contenders for Springbok selection.    That is why games like those yesterday was so important for players like Serfontein and De Allende.    They did show massive potential and skills and if they continue in that wein - they would be ready for selection on Springbok level.     They really showed skills that was absent from our no 12 centers this year/    

Engebrecht already showed his deficiencies on CC level and I dount very much whether he would make the grade on Super 15 level this year.   At this stage he can never ever be a Springbok contender = whether you like it or not.    

By the way - there were a number of centers this weekend showing how the game should be played - but the best one was O'Driscoll.    You can see how he plays with ball sense and what our centers (bar to a lesser extent De Villiers) fail to contribute anything of substance to backline play.           

    . 

Mike, Serfontein and Alllende made statements on Saturday.  They are both class acts.

Serfontein is a rarity in South African center terms. I have not seen a center play with that type of vision for some while. His skills levels are also exceptional. One can see little weaknes curently and huge strenghts suggesting, as with Goosen, we have a world class talent on the rise.

Again the question arises as to age , Do we throw a 19 year old into test rugby? Those close to Serfontein must assess this.
With Jean, Frans, Allende, Jordaan and Serfontein as cente picks we are well supplied.  Then there are others like Du Plessis and Howard who we need to see how they go. 
I really cant see center as a problem. I do like the fact that the sharks and  Stormers center combos are both possibly Bok combos. The Bulle have the young Sefontein and Venter. Not bad at all and the Cheetahs Ebersohn and Sadie.

One guy that also impressed is the 22 year old Lions black player Volmink I think his name was.  At 90 kg and growing he could be a factor - he scored a very good try against the Bulle,

Beeno

I must admit I am not that worried about the age factor insofar as Serfomtein is concerned.  He definitely is an early developer - something similar to O'Connor - who played for the Wallabies at 18 years of age.  That said - he will have to proo himself further this year on Super 15 - but may miss some matches because of the Junior WC obligations.    As you know - I like to see sustained performance to finally make up my own mind as to players.

Insofar as Volmink is concerned - he was indeed an eye-opener and one has to watch his development with care.   I think his best position may be on wing though - that is where he played for the Lions in the last two games.

I don't want to open a thread to ask a simple question, so I may as well ask it here.

How does one view older threads once they have dissapeard off the front page.

I've been away since Friday and would still like to view what was here last week

Hope you are righ Mike a she will be an asset for sure. I sometimes wonder if more Lions players like Volmink could be loaned out? Probably not.

Fireman maybe Rooinek can help. He doesnt know much about rugby but is good re computers etc.  

Its not about computers, it's this site

having similair issues TC. But i have done alot of reading through the current threads and alot of it is spoilt by poor quality postings and personal vandetta stuff. a few guys making great contributions, but just pushed aside by egos.

Fireman rooinek is sharp on computers and knows this site. I think he can help if anyone can. Take that as friendly assitance. He dug up some old post as well a while back.

I see, ok thanks