Shadow Bok team

We are now far enough along in the S15 to see the outlines of a Bok team. Mine would be:

Lambie

JP

Jean..... reserve...de Jongh

Frans

Habana

Morne....reserve Goosen 

Hougaard....reserve Pienaar (can cover 15)

Jannie

Bismarck....reserve....Strauss

Beast......reserve .....Kitshoff

Brussouw

Becker.....reserve Kruger

Etzebeth

Schalk....reserve Marcel Coetzee

Alberts

Here we have the huge grunt of most of the Stormers front five that dominated the Bools, augmented by the Beast and Bismarck, and the massively physical Schalk and Alberts. Lots of experience. But the opportunity of fielding our four most exciting new players, Etzebeth, Goosen, Coetzee and Kitshoff surrounded by a mature core team.

I'm very enthusiastic about our prospects.

We need to get Steenkamp back at loosehead. I will take Kitschoff over Beast though. Chiliboy as our starter. Frans, de Jongh and Fourie at centre. I'm not too keen on Pienaar playing 15 though, but at 9 I don't have a problem with that. We need Kolisi in here.

Just for some disection sake, you must have reasons for your choices.

1. Why Beast, he hasn't played anything much so far, and we don't have a real indication of his form, I would gladly go for him If i knew the form he was in. So I would rather then go with If selection policy allows i would go for guthro due to the fact that he is matchfit, The pick is for this time of the season, Beast might be matchfit by the time the tests comethough and he plays in South Africa currently. I am not so sure that i'll pick Kitshoff yet as he is only 20 and picking a prop at 20 for a bok team is risky for his career. let him mature first.

4. Etzebeth is the beast i agree, but again, a tight forward, i won't make h9im first choice yet, i'll go with Flippie still Etzebeth will have a long career again give him some time to mature. He is a lock though and it's not as hard on them as a prop so i would play him off the bench.

8 I won't go for Alberts at 8 I believe spies has done enough this season to turn it around, as I have said previously he has been impressive enough and is not flinching from the physical stuff. This opens space on the bench thought between alberts and Coetzee. You can move Schalkl to 8 if spies gets hurt. I would go for Coetzee purely because of his tackle rate. Kolisis is good, but i agree not as impressive as Coetzee.

2. I would not pick Strauss above Chilliboy.

9. I understand your need to pick a versatile player, however I think Pienaar will be off the pace. I'd pick another scrummie. Maybe Sarel Pretorius, could have some valuable input froma strategic point as he plays in OZ, knows the players etc. thinking towards the Rugby Championship and is probably our best or second best scrummie.

13. Jean maybe good idea to shift him out. However the way that JP has been playing at outside centre he might be an option as well.

14. If you play JP at 13 then you need Aplon. People complain about his size, but the guy has more hart than 300 Spartans combined. I would pick him for that and his unpredictability, bar that. Willie le Roux. for his versatility, he can play both wing and fullback, he has even played Flyhalf for boland.

15. I understand the need for long term option. However Lambie does not play fullback at this stage, and would need a game or two to adjust, we don't have that comfort against England. I'd go for Viljoen. Lambie to be in the squad though as replacement on the bench.

Another thought: As replacement to Danie Roussouw, we might need a versatile Lock that can play 7 or 8 a possible candidate maybe Rynhardt Elstadt. Well Alberts as well, but Elstadt has him on length. Just a thought.

Just some thoughts , not saying that is what i'll do, just trying to broaden the choices. All will depend however on the game that Heynecke wants to play and which players he believes will do what he asks. and can combine well. Combinations are the key to sucess here, no use in picking a genius that doesn't combine well with another genius.

Sorry for the double post, however i needed to add something here that we need to be aware of when picking a shadow bok team. I have the suspision that our bok team will not change that much.

Keep in mind that there ae a few positions that i believe heynecke hsa filled already:

13: Jacque Fourie

12: Francois Steyn

9: Fourie Du Preez (Captain)

4: Danie Roussouw

I might be wrong but i think he is going to go that route, Fourie, Du preez and Roussouw might be in the mix for another year. Then he will start the phasing out. He needs to retain some stability first And then build.

Lambie

JP

Jean..... reserve...de Jongh

Frans

Habana

Morne....reserve Goosen 

Hougaard....reserve Pienaar (can cover 15)

Jannie

Bismarck....reserve....Strauss

Beast......reserve .....Kitshoff

Brussouw

Becker.....reserve Kruger

Etzebeth

Schalk....reserve Marcel Coetzee

Alberts

Pretty good side Moz but I am having doubts about. Beast, Jannie (man we do need more at tighthead), Brussouw and Alberts. Beast is a serial loafer who does not play to his potential. Jannie is ver yaverage. Brussouw is not stealing ball these days so why include him. Alberts is not firing. Alberts is a big man who may improve. 

If Guthro is fit he is an option. Coenie also is an option.  I thing Kitshoff has the look of a tighthead to me. Vermulen is a must as is Schalk. I would love to see Juandre playing 7 - he has the pace to do so.

Pienaar has gone to pot based on WC form.

I cant complain too much see any of your selections but as I say there are some doubts in my mind about some of them. Thanks for not including Chilliboy. Man this is really a puzzlement to me.

Agree with most of your side, but mine would be:

15. Lambie 14. JP 13. Taute 12. Frans 11. Habana 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Mujati 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. Schalk 8. Spies 16. Pienaar 17. Jantjies 18. Fourie 19. Kitshoff 20. Chiliboy 21. Flip 22. J.Strauss

I have serious problems about any team selection at this stage - especially if it involves has beens like Fourie Du Preez.   We have enough younger players with massive potential to field a very strong international outfit.

Full Back - Lambie and Viljoen

Wings - Pieterse, Aplon, Habana

Centers - De Villiers, Fourie, Steyn and Taute

Flyhalfs - Goosen (good enough and others can cover this position as well)

Scrummies - Hougaard, Pienaar and Pretorius

Props - Du Plessis, Kitshoff, Beast - there are a number of other potentials as well

Hookers - Du Plessis, Liebenberg, Strauss, Chilliboy

Locks - Etzebeth, Bekker, Van der Merwe, Kruger

Flanks - Burger, Louw, Brussouw, Alberts, Strauss and  Kolisi

8th Man - Spies  - a number of flanks can cover this position as well.

You can actually pick virtually two top teams from the above and do not need the rugby geriatics.

Why do we have to have people like Du Preez and M Steyn in the mix - when they are really past tense?  Heineke would cause a massive problem for himself in future if he falls for that one and pick people that failed badly last year.  Danie Rossouw? Is he still playing rugby?.    

Yes Danie is still playing, currently still in Japan with Eddie Jones' team, the season there has ended now, and there were rumours a while back that Jake white contracted him for the Brumbies after the conlusion of the Japanese season, however not sure how true that is.

Jake failed to secure him for the Brumbies. As it stands, the Brumbies already have the one foreigner that they are allowed to have; an Irish front rower.

Lots of valid points. Let me comment on a few.

*Lambie will slot back into fullback like a glove. If you have doubts go back and look at that Aussie QF again, the lad was impeccable.

*We can't afford any more time with Fourie at 13. Hecould have secured the QF three times.....the aberrant pass to Habana, the inside turn on the kick charge versus passing to open men and the failure to back any of Jean's breaks.   He has done zippo since the Lions series.

* Morne had a bit of a shocker against the Stormers, but Goosen is not ready and Steyn will be important.

*Pienaar is a superb scrumhalf who clears the ball quickly. Messed around with the misguided attempt to make him a flyhalf....he is a purer ball passer than Hougaard who to me is still a better wing.

* We made a huge mistake opting for Steenkamp versus the Beast at the RWC, based on scrumming against weak teams...and so we lost yet another match winner. He is only 27 and should be in the prime of his career.

* Strauss is a superb hooker....he will never let the team down and is a real on the field leader. Remember the old adage of having as many leaders as possible.

* Flip versus Etzebeth? .......nope that was settled with a vengeance on Saturday. Eben dominated Flip Flop.

*Spies had to be made captain to play hard. What happens if he isn't captain of the Boks, he becomes a defeatist loafer again?

Two teams with as few oldies as possible:

1. S. Kitsoff

2. B. Du Plessis

3. J. Du Plessis

4. E. Etzebeth

5. A. Bekker

6. S Kolisi

7. D Vermeulen

8. W Alberts

9. F. Hougaard

10. P. Lambie

11. B. Basson

12. F. Steyn

13. J. De Jongh

14. L. Mvovo

15. J. Taute

Second team is probably a little weaker.

1. C. Oosthuizen

2. C. Ralepelle/Strauss

3. WP. Nel/W. Kruger

4. R. Elstadt

5. J. Kruger

6. M. Coetzee

7. F. Louw

8. A. Johnson/Kankowski/Spies

9. R. Pienaar

10. J. Goosen

11. G. van den Heever

12. A. Strauss

13. J. Sadie

14. G. Aplon

15. J. Pietersen

There's enough talent. England showed the way by fielding a super inexperienced lineup in the six nations and starting from scratch. I think we should do this.

Nonsense Moz, Gurthro is the premier loosehead in test rugby. Beast is good, but Gurthro far better.

I disagree, he hardly dented the bog ordinary Alexander. Surely the premier loosehead could at least have helped us dominate the scrums?  It's become customary to put this guy on a pedestal, but it was the Beast who destroyed the Lions scrum.

The Beast scrums at least as well, he tackles far better.....Gurthro being pretty much a road cone. And while Gurthro has some power on the burst, the Beast is even harder to put down and has the pace of a loose forward.

The fact that we have never played to the Beast as a ball carrier and his great runs were incidental, is just another edge we have never exploited.

Am with Moz on this. Guthro is good, but the Beast is better

here's my team for the June tests:

15. P.Lambie

14. JP. Pietersen

13. F.Steyn

12. J.De Villiers

11. G.Aplon

10. M.Steyn

9. F.Hougaard

8. P.Spies (c)

7. S.Burger

6. H.Brussouw

5. A.Bekker

4. J.Smith (if fit to play)

3. J.Du Plessis

2. B.Du Plessis

1. T.Mtawarira

16. C.Ralapele

17. S.Kitshoff / C.Oosthuizen

18. E.Etzebeth (if Smith is not fit to play, he starts and J.Deysel comes in as lock cover)

19. W.Alberts / M.Coutzee

20. R.Pienaar

21. J.Goosen

22. J.de Jongh

might be abit early for Goosen, if so, E.Jantjies to cover 10.

Jean, I see you have picked Spies as Captain. Don't you think he is a bit inexperienced in that role, just a thought. He has only been Captain at Super Rugby level for what 5 - six games, I am not sure how many warmups they played, but the argument remains.

JeanF, playing Juan Smith out of position at lock ahead of the likes of Etzebeth or Flip is a complete joke. Man I have seen some selections in my time, but this one takes the cake. Juan Smith for a start is too small for lock. Our pack would get drilled by England with a player like Smith at lock.

Have you not been watching the S15 and seen how good Etzebeth is and how everyone is raving about the lad?

@ Ek. yeah good point, guess i'm thinking long term and jumping the gun abit here.. but like Meyer is doing by selecting a short term captain (most probably Burger) and then making a final descision on his captain thereafter could possibly be Spies once he gets the experience factor on his side as a leader..

@ Saffex. my thinking was having the experience of Smith in the pack and im sure he can hold his own in the engine room as well as a great jumper and very mobile.. i think Etzebeth is a hell of a player and i am a huge fan, but shouldnt he be carefully brought in and not just thrown in the deep end, his a young man (only 20) and i think it would be better for him to come off the bench..

Ah understood Jean, Spies is defenitely a long term candidate dependant on his performance in the S15. So far he has taken well to the captaincy and it has improved his game.

regarding Juan Smith. He is out officially now. He will onlybe back in 2013. honestly i think his international career is over now. It will take a alot for hi to come back from this one. I understand Etzebeth on the bench I would also do that.

As I have mentioned i think maybe Meyer will call on Daniesaurus. And our short term captain might not be schalk, Al fingers are currently pointing to Fourie du Preez.

therefore Long term candidates will then maybe include: Spies, Ralelpelle, Bismark (If he learns to control himself), Schalk(he will play 7 in the place of Juan) and my wildcard is Bekker. My long term choice would off course be a shocker - Beast, I like him alot from a leadership perspective, he is calm, respected, has a very good set of values (this Heynecke values alot) and any guy that can get an A for maths in his A levels can't be stupid. No one really mentions him as a candidate however.

No way in hell would I ever contemplate playing Smith at lock, he is not big enough for a start, but more the fact that we have so much depth at lock these days. Etzebeth at 20, is ready and there is no doubting that at all. He has dominated physically at S15 level, meaning he will just as easily hold his own at test level.

We have plenty of form locks to choose from, there is certainly no need to play a flanker at lock. No way in hell.

We have Bekker, Etzebeth, Flip, Elstadt, JA Marais, J.Kruger, Bresler, Sykes, Quin Roux and even Bakkies is still available - no need for Juan out of position at all. Man I'd be pissed off if I saw a selection like that. Flanks as locks just never work. Wickus v/Heerden, Deysel and Lobberts are examples of that - all sad excuses for locks

Dave do you mean to say victor is taller than Juan? Certainly victor is not bigger as they both weigh in at 107 kg which as you rightly say, is too small for an international lock. Hahahahahahaha

And please Dave victor does know his own weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are however pretty well served at lock. It will be interesting to see if Bakkies ever comes back.

Honestly I don't think Bakkies will come back. He has gone to make some cash in the bank and then he will retire. He knows it, and I think Heynecke knows it as well.

Its time for Bakkie to cash in - he has earned it. To me he is one of the greatest locks ever. At his peak he was magnificent. An enforcer with pace, aggression,size (120 kg) and all the requisite skills a lock should have.

Folk thinking of any show ponies as future Bok locks need to consider Bakkies. Its all about tight five dominance and this type of lock gives you that.

Beeno I am not going to have this pathetic argument about Victors weight for only a stupid clown would conclude that Victor only weighs 107kg. It does not take a brain surgeon to work out that Victor at 2m tall is taller than Juan.

Victor weighed around 115kg's and is 2m tall - perfect size for a No 5 lock

Let's examine this Spies as captain thing for a moment. A few weeks after the Boks had lost a match they should have won at the RWC, Spies was tweeting about the great time he was having in the game reserves. Not a crime tweeting, and certainly not a crime being in the reserve, but it made me wonder if the whole loss had even pissed him off. To me Spies is a bit of a robot.

So what is the new evidence that he is captain material? The Bulls have lost two key games already, one at home.....and they were lucky to scrape past the Sharks. Did we see Spies adjust the team's tactics in the first half against WP....nope it was done by the coaches at the half. In fact did we see Spies getting animated at all with his team.....nope. Have we ever seen Spies getting animated with his team mates nope.....he slopes around with the same dour expression on his face. Hardly inspirational.

As for this BS of a player lifting his game because he is captain.....nonsense surely. Why would a guy like Spies not have lifted his game at the RWC? Here's a typical player review from the Quarter Final:

"8. Pierre Spies – 5/10
Was outplayed by opposite number Radike Samo in an oddly quiet game for Spies. His impact on the game was not felt as much as it usually is."

I doubt Spies is long for the Bok team based on his playing ability alone.....he has done little for the Boks in the last two seasons.
 

But mostly I'm amazed that fans think a great leader like John Smit, animated, shrewd, articulate and human. A guy who held the position with grace through such tricky moments, should be replaced by a morose, inarticulate robot.

Spies has been the best SA 8 in the S15 thus far by some distance......certainly better than Daniel, Koster, Whitely and v/d Walt

You are right Dave, our 8th  men are an uninspiring lot. Unlike our flanks and locks......but that doesn't make Spies a good choice. He has been outplayed almost consistently by his TN opponents in the last two years. To me he lacks fighting spirit.

Disagree Moz, I have been impressed with him this season and most seem to concur with that take. He has been through a quiet patch by his standards, but looks to be regaining the Spies of old.