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FORUM / RUGBY /  Should Bissie be getting subbed?

Should Bissie be getting subbed?

Started by Beeno113 REPLIES906 VIEWS· 14 Oct 2013, 23:42
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Oct 2013, 23:42
#1
14 Oct 2013, 23:42#1

Ex Keo

Somehow I just can’t imagine the Chiefs, Crusaders or All Blacks not playing Bismarck du Plessis for eighty minutes, if the world’s best hooker was a starting option.

South African rugby is blessed with talent and depth in talent at hooker. Du Plessis is the best hooker in the world, by some distance. Adriaan Strauss would challenge for being in the top three hookers playing globally and I would still put Saracens’s Springbok Schalk Brits in the top five international hookers.

And don’t forget Toulouse-based Springbok Chiliboy Ralepelle, who would make most international squads.

Hooker is the one playing position in which South Africa is supreme and has an advantage over New Zealand.

The All Blacks have survived on two grizzled veterans in Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu and a youngster in Dane Coles, who hasn’t looked convincing and who would struggle to make a South African Super Rugby franchise.

If New Zealand had Du Plessis to choose from, then the rest of the rugby playing nations, South Africa included, wouldn’t need to bother. It would simply be an unfair contest between No 1 and the rest.

That the Kiwis don’t currently have the unique qualities of Du Plessis gives South Africa – and the rest – hope.

Du Plessis is a colossal presence but because of the limited game time I – for one – am always left asking for more. I am also left wondering, why there isn’t an 80 minute investment in his performance every time he plays?

So much about the South African game is premeditated and we saw this when Bok coach Heyneke Meyer substituted Du Plessis on 50 minutes against the All Blacks at Ellis Park, with the Boks about to feed a scrum five metres out against a shaky New Zealand scrum.

Meyer had promised Du Plessis 50 minutes and Strauss 30 minutes. In Cape Town a week earlier he had made the promise of 50 minutes to Strauss and 30 minutes to Du Plessis. In both matches he did not waver, in spite of the performance.

Meyer will make an argument that he has the two best hookers in the world in his squad and he needs to keep both sharp. There is a case to be made, but these two players are not of equal stock, which is no sleight on Strauss, who in my view shades the rest of the best. Then there is Du Plessis, who is a bit like the current All Blacks in his status as something a bit out of the ordinary.

McCaw is the greatest modern day forward. He has played 120 Tests for the All Blacks, including 53 Tests against South Africa and Australia, with half of them away from home. He has started 116 of these Tests and of those 116 he has started he has played the full 80 minutes 95 percent of the time.

Legendary Bok and Bulls lineout specialist Victor Matfield, who had an on-field presence the equal of McCaw and Du Plessis, also wasn’t easily substituted.

Du Plessis hates being substituted – as would McCaw or Matfield (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) – because he knows he is the best.

Why is he being short changed? Not only at the Boks but also at the Sharks.

Du Plessis spent the bulk of his early career playing a secondary role to Springbok hooker John Smit, who in his last two seasons of international rugby should have been the secondary selection.

Smit was a magnificent leader of the Boks and the right choice to start, both as a player and leader, until the end of the 2007 World Cup campaign.

Thereafter Du Plessis should have been unleashed on the world to torture opposition hookers and terrorize ball carriers at the breakdown. He is a loose-forward and hooker rolled into one.

He commands the attentions of more than one attacker or defender because of his strength and work rate.

Yet the Sharks also subbed him on Saturday against Western Province , with 15 minutes to go and one score in it. It was a winner take all match with the big prize the right to host the Currie Cup final.

The Sharks, in that last quarter and especially in the last three minutes when they carried the ball for 15 phases but made no impact, were desperate for the mongrel, go forward and presence of the world’s best hooker.

But he was on the sidelines, as he was at Ellis Park a week earlier, because of a tactical substitution.

It boggles my mind at least that there is anything tactical in taking off a player who is the world’s best in his position when there is the option to play him for 80 minutes.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
15 Oct 2013, 00:03
#2
15 Oct 2013, 00:03#2
Heh Beeno, IMO no he should not be subbed.  From what I have seen he must be one of the best hookers in the World. I can't see the logic in why he is being subbed but maybe he has an injury or something. We may not know the full story.
By the way did you read what this article says about McCaw.
"McCaw is the greatest modern day forward. He has played 120 Tests for the All Blacks, including 53 Tests against South Africa and Australia, with half of them away from home. He has started 116 of these Tests and of those 116 he has started he has played the full 80 minutes 95 percent of the time."
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
15 Oct 2013, 00:21
#3
15 Oct 2013, 00:21#3
i love how keo uses the chiefs, crusaders and All Blacks as examples of teams he doubts would have subbed bizzy, almost as if no other team matters,

but i agree in most parts with this keo article, a surprise considering how kak filled their articles usually are.

i agree that coles would struggle to make most SA spXV franchises, hooker really is the only area where the Boks have an abundance of talent to choose from compared to NZ.
i also agree that strauss would be considered in the top 3 hookers in the world, All Blacks have the same luxury with our flyhalves, carter being the best and cruden being the clear No2 and whats crazy is barret showed he cant be too far away from the top 5, in fact, other then sexton, i cant really think of a better flyhalf then barret,

i dont believe that bizzy wouldnt have been subbed by the crusaders, chiefs and All Blacks though, especially the All Blacks.
tactical substitutions is about the best time to effectively and efficiently getting the best out of both players being subbed on and being subbed off.
i also dont think a prop, hooker or halfback can play the entire 80mins of rugby and still be as effective as when they first started. its not impossible, but very unlikely.
if any of the NZ teams mentioned had bizzy in their teams, bizzy would still get subbed cos NZ understands this philosophy very well.

in the ellis park test i noticed the Bok forwards were struggling to keep up with the pace of the game, the high altitude IMO ended up benefiting the All Blacks more then it did the Boks, cos the high paced tempo of the game is what NZ rugby call cruise control, while the Boks have hardly ever played at that tempo period.
All Blacks themselves said they were feeling the burn, but once they got their second wind, the rest was formality, and thanks to the spXV and playing in the hardest conference, finding that second wind was a lot easier which is good, cos its an absolute must, especially under those conditions. 

i think there can be no doubt that that meyer made an error in subbing out bizzy so early, im not saying that subbing him out was a mistake, but he looked like he still had a good solid 10mins of bizzy pain to unleash and meyer should have left him on.

i also have to question bizzys character as a team player.
once the decision was made for him to be subbed, i dont know why he hung around the sideline like some kind of piet van zyl gropuie, sure we all agree it was the wrong call to sub him, but strauss dosent need to see him on the sideline watching everything he does with a microscope, there was already enough pressure on strauss as it was.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Oct 2013, 00:58
#4
15 Oct 2013, 00:58#4

Beeno

 

Sure he can be subbed  - but not when the Springboks are on attack five meters from the AB line and a scrum has been called.   That was a downright stupid decision on the part of the coaching staff.

BA
black adderClub Pro196 posts
15 Oct 2013, 02:18
#5
15 Oct 2013, 02:18#5

 Sas..you hit it on the head when you mentioned team player.

 One of the major differences between NZ and SA is we in the Pacific have a group orientated culture whereas in SA it is more individualistic culture.

 

Individualism and collectivism are subsets of broad worldviews, which have been called, respectively, atomism and holism.

 

Atomism is prominent in the western cultures and refers to the tendency to view things in terms of their component parts hence all the anal over analysis (analysis paralysis?)of individual players around here.

 

By contrast in the Pacific we hold more or a collectivistic view that people are not separate units, but rather are part and parcel of a larger group (i.e.,brothers, extended family, ).

 

So we're worlds apart from SA's way of thinking as the Pacifica view of the person falls at the extreme collectivistic end of the continuum, while the SA view would fall closer to the extreme individualistic end.

 

Using Bismark as an example of SA individualism; he shows he has the valued characteristics such as mastery of certain skills ie hooker , being able to perform under pressure–by competing with and doing better than others.

 

Collectivistic cultures though are more likely to emphasize cooperation among group members as the basis for success in competition .

 

 This contributes to why the All Blacks and NZ teams are so strong and successful (along with we're fitter , more talented and broader skill sets attained from beng proficient in multiple rugby codes.)

 

But rugby is a team sport ( there's no I's in team) so Bismark would probably struggle with the team orientated culture in NZ . 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
15 Oct 2013, 15:23
#6
15 Oct 2013, 15:23#6
 Bissie was subbed??? I thought he was being told (twice) to go and sit in the naughty corner! Did he throw a hizzy fit, stamp his feet, roll on the ground and throw his toys as he did at Ellis Park? 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
15 Oct 2013, 16:20
#7
15 Oct 2013, 16:20#7
 No, I would rather Bring Adrian Strauss on as a reserve backrow forward towards the end of the game. He is good in the loose and this is when the game opens up with less structure.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
15 Oct 2013, 16:30
#8
15 Oct 2013, 16:30#8
@sharkbok,

"No, I would rather Bring Adrian Strauss on as a reserve backrow forward towards the end of the game. He is good in the loose and this is when the game opens up with less structure."
thats a great idea, that way for the next three minutes strauss will be awesome before meyer sends in a sub for strauss and an oxygen tank,

strauss aint a backrow player period, he is a front row end of story,

i have no idea why its so hard for SA to understand the importance of mobility in the backrow, and suggesting a 115kg hooker should play in the backrow is IMO a abturd, i mean absurd,
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 Oct 2013, 16:38
#9
15 Oct 2013, 16:38#9
I agree Sasuke, it's a ridiculous idea . . . something that only a half-wit like TwatBok would come up with.

If you want a second loose forward sub then put another loose forward on the bench. The idea of sending a hooker on to do the job of a loose forward is just plain stupid.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
15 Oct 2013, 16:49
#10
15 Oct 2013, 16:49#10
@Sasuke, look how many carries Strauss makes. He is actually lighter than Alberts and more mobile than Alberts.  Alberts is 120kg. He has finished many games this year as the forward making the most metres, and typically this would be a loose forward. Look how he left Engelbrecht in the dust last weekend.  If anything he plays better in the loose than in the tight. Although I do concede that he is built more like a prop than anything else.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Oct 2013, 16:53
#11
15 Oct 2013, 16:53#11
"The idea of sending a hooker on to do the job of a loose forward is just plain stupid" ....no kidding Sherlock. That's exactly what happened to Deon Fourie and right now he may be the best fetcher in the land. Once again RIP, you simply can't see past your blinkers.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Oct 2013, 17:25
#12
15 Oct 2013, 17:25#12

Mozart

 

Fourie has a reputation for good play - but he has some rather serious deficiencies insofar as -

 

*   giving away of penalties; and

 

*   a low tackle count insofar as an open side flank is concerned.

 

In essence I think he is more a loosie than a hooker.   His line out throw-in is a gamble at best and he is very small for a hooker - hence limited strength insofar as  scrumming is concerned.   

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
15 Oct 2013, 18:28
#13
15 Oct 2013, 18:28#13
@sharkbok,

ive got no problems with strauss , i just think hes a poor poor option as a looseforward.
the modern day looseforward does more then just ball carries, his ability to link up with the backs is IMO even more important, for u cannot forget that a looseforwards primary job is breakdown security, they are faster and more mobile then the other forwards so need to get to breakdown after breakdown, but also be that effective extra back the team can rely on when attacking rugby is on like donkey kong.
strauss simply does not have what it takes to do what a modern day loosie can and should do.

and perrrrlease, comparing strauss to alberts by saying hes lighter, rememeber how easily alberts looked like a lameo trying to tackle read, or should i say trying to attempt a tackle on read???
well subsitute alberts for strauss and all u would have is a different funny big guy falling flat on his face,

@mozter,
some say that fourie is a loosie but not a hooker, others say hes a hooker not a loosie, well no one says that actually.
but IMO fourie is a very good hooker and an even better looseforward.
the difference between him and strauss is fourie knows exactly what is required to get the job done as a loosie and more importantly he has the necessary tools to get the job done, strauss does not.

tell u what though, u and sharkbok should get a petition started for strauss to be the Boks next lossie against the All Blacks and ill be the first to sign it,
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
15 Oct 2013, 21:03
#14
15 Oct 2013, 21:03#14

Agreed Fourie is a dual purpose/position player...Strauss is a damn good hooker only. I've heard others suggest this that Strauss could be effective as a flanker but I fully agree with Sasuke...it just doesn't make any sense.

 

I believe Bismarck can be subbed but only at the right time...HM's timing was bad. This is not the first time he's got the timing wrong...it has happened many times. Other than that HM has got a lot right and he's proved himself better than most of us gave him credit for...if only he would trim the dead wood.

— END OF THREAD —

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