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FORUM / RUGBY /  Should M Steyn get booted?

Should M Steyn get booted?

Started by bluebok20 REPLIES376 VIEWS· 25 Jun 2012, 11:21
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BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
25 Jun 2012, 11:21
#1
25 Jun 2012, 11:21#1

I have been one of the few that have argued FOR Morne Steyn consistantly over the years, but I am not sure anymore. The thing is, we all know what his strengths as a player are. He is not the best attacking flyhalf in the world, but up until this season, his kicking at goal and and tactical kicking have been world class. Unfortunately, even those aspects of his game have gone for a ball of poo now! If my memory serves me correctly, he almost single handedly lost at least two games for the Bulls in the Super Rugby this season, by missing penalties that he could normally kick with his eyes closed. Secondly, his tactical kicking has barely been average this year. Not sure what has gone wrong with him, but if he is already weak as an attacking player, and now is weak in his usual areas of strength, then why is he in the team? 

 

I just want to make one point though, the team as a whole played badly, which probably contributed to his poor performance on Saturday, but in my opinion he has been under par since the start of the year, and not just for the last game or the England series. 

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
25 Jun 2012, 11:25
#2
25 Jun 2012, 11:25#2

Not sure why this posted twice, definately only posted it once. Anyway, sorry about that, please only reply to this one.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2012, 12:46
#3
25 Jun 2012, 12:46#3

Blue the posting twice could be a tchnical problem.

As for Morne its simple really. If his kicking doesnt come right in the super cop he will be dropped.

Only other question is if his kicking does comes right does he add more value than Lambie. Also if Lambie moves from  15 who takes his place etc.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:04
#4
25 Jun 2012, 13:04#4

Without a doubt he should be booted, failing which Bok rugby will not move on. Our forwards for most of the series were good - our backs let us down thanks to poor decision making and execution at 10

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:21
#5
25 Jun 2012, 13:21#5

Well snapster Morne only has three games t come right and you might have your wish. Hougie is probably the best athlete playing scrummie in world rugby but some how doesnt flow in the position. what do you think of Vermaak?

If the guys come back from injury the pack can be fixed with no problem aprt from coenie who we probably wont see again this year. Its the backline that is causing concern. Obviously Frans comes back and Lambie. But what to do with the half backs. If lambie goes to 1 who gets 15.

Lots for the gusy to play for in the remaining 3 matches.

I saw your under 25 side and would like them to play the rest of SA  ie the more senior Boks. Could be close!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:27
#6
25 Jun 2012, 13:27#6

Well snapster Morne only has three games t come right and you might have your wish. Hougie is probably the best athlete playing scrummie in world rugby but some how doesnt flow in the position. what do you think of Vermaak?

If the guys come back from injury the pack can be fixed with no problem apart from Coenie who we probably wont see again this year? Its the backline that is causing concern. Obviously Frans comes back and Lambie. But what to do with the half backs. If Lambie goes to 1 who gets 15.

Lots for the guys to play for in the remaining 3 matches.

I saw your under 25 side and would like them to play the rest of SA  ie the more senior Boks as it would give some indication of of ready these youngsters are. Could be close but we will never see such a game

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:31
#7
25 Jun 2012, 13:31#7

I have no issue with Hougaard at all as he has proved that he more than has it to make it at 9. His service has always been crisp and his general play is second to none. He can kick well, but getting charged down is an issue he needs to address.

He is not in great form at the moment, but so what, his class is permanent and you stick with him. If he had a suspect pass, I'd be concerned, but his pass both ways is good. He will find form again.

If Goosen is not ready by the time we play Oz and NZ, then Jantjies needs a run at 10, with Grant on the bench

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:31
#8
25 Jun 2012, 13:31#8

I have no issue with Hougaard at all as he has proved that he more than has it to make it at 9. His service has always been crisp and his general play is second to none. He can kick well, but getting charged down is an issue he needs to address.

He is not in great form at the moment, but so what, his class is permanent and you stick with him. If he had a suspect pass, I'd be concerned, but his pass both ways is good. He will find form again.

If Goosen is not ready by the time we play Oz and NZ, then Jantjies needs a run at 10, with Grant on the bench

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
25 Jun 2012, 13:43
#9
25 Jun 2012, 13:43#9

Guys we have a problem at 10. I don't care what people say, Lambie is not the answer. His decision making at 10 is just not good enough. Yes he has done some good things at 10, I won't deny that, but he just seems to be lacking in that position. Do any of you really believe he is the long term answer at 10? I certainly don't!  He just seems like a more natural fullback to me. Jantjes, well lets just put it this way, in a make or break game to decide the Nations Championship, or whatever the Tri Nations is called these days, I would not feel at all confident for him to be playing in the 10 jersey under that kind of pressure. Honestly, with Goosen out, and Pollen too young and inexperienced, where do we turn? Grant, that's what I would do, but I think it has been made clear that the selectors don't have him in mind. So basically, its M Steyn or bust in my opinion. If Steyn doesn't find form in the remaining three weeks of Super Rugby, and I doubt he will, then we are pretty much stuffed.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
25 Jun 2012, 17:10
#10
25 Jun 2012, 17:10#10

 Knowing that there are three weeks of S15 left - Meyer missed a golden opportunity to try another flyhalf - whoever, doesn't matter - but getting someone else international experience would have been invaluable

My choice would have been Grant with an appearance from Jantjies.

 

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
26 Jun 2012, 03:06
#11
26 Jun 2012, 03:06#11

 Agreed:

Morne out,

Grant in,

Eberson bench.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jun 2012, 05:50
#12
26 Jun 2012, 05:50#12

There is a lot of emotion around about this topic and in a way I do agree with much of what is being said.   I have always thought that Morne was one of the best goal kickers ever in international rugby and he should get credit for that.   He kicked us to victory numerous times.

On the other hand he does not really serve as a good linkage with his backline and is playing according to instruction only - especially insofar as stratetgic kicking is concerned.   Because he does not have enough Ball Sense - he is limited as a flyhalf.

Problem is his kicking game thus far this year - both in Super 15 and in the recent three tests - have gone away.   It is probably psycological.   Try as he might - I am sure he is not missing kicks deliberately - the guy is really trying hard without success.

If he continues to be unsuccessful in kicking - is he really good enough in the Bok team?   The answer is probably no and I think we must accept that.   In my opinion he therefore has to go.  A break in international rugby and playing on lower level in the CC could perhaps solve his kicking vows and bring him back to form insofar as his only real strong element is concerned.

The question is - who should replace him to play according to instruction by his coaches.   I myself think they allow him no room to deviate and I also think that our backline coaching is not up to standard in any event.   This problem is also going to affect any replacement player as well.

The person punted to take over is Goosen - but the guy will be out of rugby and returning to the game only in September this year - that is too late for him to contribute to the Four Nations tournament.    There are three options mentioned by virtually everyone around.   Most people think that Lambie will be the answer - with some supporting Jantjies all out and a number mentioned Grant as well.    Lets analyse the thre players and see what comes up. 

The only form really to be used isthe Super 15 games played by the three.   Jantjies is playing for a really bad outfit and thus placed at a disadvantage.    I watched most of the Super 15 games - some of them repeatedly.    In my opinion the ratings I would give the three players are as follows:-

Lambie   -    7

Grant      -     7

Jantjies  -     6.

Now lets anylize the ratings.   Lambie played most of the Super 15 games at flyhalf.   He has had a good season in that position and the backline play of the Sharks was good - especially after the Sharks brought in Jordaan at 13 and moved Pietersen to his natural position as a wing.   The latter got more opportunities through the passing game of Lambie and scored some good tries.   His goal kicking and strategic kciking was very good.   Of all three players mentioned I believe that Lambie had the best instincts insofar as all-round flyhalf play is concerned.  One problem is that he has been used by Meyer as a full back and he only played in two matches - the first one coming from off the  bench and the second one only for half the game as a result of injury.    That leaves all of us in a quandary as to where he should in fact be utilized on international level.   Be it as it may - he could be a good choice as a replacement for Steyn until such time as Goosen resumes play.

The second player to be considered is Peter Grant.   He played on international level already and is an experienced flyhalf.   This year he had a very good record in Super 15 - but he is blamed by many as being responsible for the fact that the Stormers back line is not functioning well and did not score enough tries.    That is a bit unfair - since there are indeed weakness outside of him.   I myself think that the problem is De Jongh - who has shown nothing on attack this year at 13 - thus neutraling his wings in the process.   The latters defence was excellent.    He never had one line break and when he tried often lost the ball through handing it to the opposition.   Grant himself had a good kicking season - both at goal and strategically.   He scored tries himself and his defence was good.   There would really be no problem in getting him in the team.

Jantjies is the third player to be considered.   The Super 15 games have shown that he could be brilliant in some cases and anything but in others in the same games    His kicking game has been good - but there are some question marks around his decisiontaking and serious qualms about his defence..    There is uncertainty whether he could make the step up from Super 15 to international  level.    It will be a gamble to play him - with no international expereience - against the stronger international teams.    They will make his life extremely difficult - attacking in the channel to exploit any defensive problems there may be.  This is what happened in Super 15 and there have been soime problems in the relevant regard.     I would never dream of recommending him for inclusion against the Wallabies and the All Blacks - but has suggested that he should be given a chance to play against the Argentinians  to find out how he would react on international level.   Basically exposure on international level in the wrong games could ruin his playing career and that would be unfair in his case.

The two options available to Meyer in the event of further failure by Steyn would in the first instance be either Lambie or Grant.   Personally i think at this stage the choice should be Grant - the more expereienced of the two.  

  

  

 

 

RE
redsmanPro1,710 posts
26 Jun 2012, 06:12
#13
26 Jun 2012, 06:12#13

I think modern day 5/8 needs to bring more creativity in attack. Morne is probly your typical mid-90s flyhalf - great kick but thats about it.

10 is one of the most important positions in rugby and much of a teams success follows their 10's ability.... eg Wilkinson / Cooper (reds) / carter / Cruden (cheifs)....

not telling you guys nothing that hasnt been said already but boks should be getting new dynamic 5/8 to create plays rather than kick for corners -

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
26 Jun 2012, 10:49
#14
26 Jun 2012, 10:49#14

Moz, I reckon you are probably right regarding your stance on the three players. I agree that grant is the most rounded option. For me, Lambie is not quite as good as all the hype around him. Jantjes simply has too many question marks surrounding him. Just on defence, that is the one area where Morne Steyn is not quite as weak as people think. If you have a look at his recent tackle stats they aren't bad at all, unfortunately, he has forgotten how to kick. As I said in another thread, if Steyn had just made his goal kicks, as he normally would, we would have won all three tests against the Poms easily.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
26 Jun 2012, 15:47
#15
26 Jun 2012, 15:47#15

well does  bear take a crap in the woods...does some catholic priest fondle young boys...does some ANC goverment members stick there pockets full of money. does SA tax system suck like the bissel big green clean machine, does morne steyn need to be dropped like a jannie de beer 1999 QF.....all of these questions i can answer with a resounding YES

morne has never been dynamic and his kick only and dont even try to answer questions approach is finally took its toll. if we played pre ELV"S then maybe he could have been a factor but as HM has mentioned the rules have rulled out the fecther role( which i still feel is rubbish) i feel the ELV have created players that need to be more rounded. backline players need to be more rounded than years gone by. just as brussow needed to change his game so has morne also needed to change his approach. but at 28 can you really expect a player to change ??? best solution forward is to pick goosen and blood him as early as possible. for the 4 nations i think morne still needs to be around but only in a mentor role i feel to goosen. jantjies is great but as it seems only once in every 5 weeks and same as morne is lacking in many areas. where as the like of pollard and goosen is streets ahead. lambie is not 10 material for me. he has his ups and downs just like jantjies and at international level if things go bad then there is nowhere to hide.

as redsmand mentioned the like of wilko carter cooper have set the standard and at the peak of there powers they make there respective teams unbeatable. so its shows how crucial a 5/8 is to any teams cause. goosen and pollard are young but have great potential but i feel they need to choose choosen now and groom him. not in a few years time. goosen is class and has shown how unfased he is in superrugby which is the standard as we all know. he as as franna steyn was when he came on the seen a freakish talent. pick him contract him until the next RWC and develop his all round skills...i still feel louis koen is rubbish kickining coach as well...percy needs to be drafted back in. his 100 odd caps cant be measured

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
26 Jun 2012, 15:48
#16
26 Jun 2012, 15:48#16

@redsman welcome mate have not seen you in a while

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
26 Jun 2012, 16:30
#17
26 Jun 2012, 16:30#17

I must agree regarding the kicking coach CM, Mongomery just seems to have made such a difference, and as you say, that experience must not be wasted. Also, I share your views on Lambie, good, but not nearly reliable enough1 Morne Steyn with Goosen as his understudy. And Steyn only because there is nobody to replace him in the short time left before the Tri Chamionship Nations thingy starts.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
26 Jun 2012, 16:45
#18
26 Jun 2012, 16:45#18

i could not agree more

monty brings 3 eras worth of exp to the party and might help the rather rubbish backline to find some form. the biggest problem we face is who do you replace him with ??? goosen has the goods but can he handle playing the top 2 sides in the world now ??? and the pumas are not pushovers either. i feel he can but he needs to be in the mix and needs to be mentored through the whole process...give him 2 years and he will be great flyhalf mark my words

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jun 2012, 23:23
#19
26 Jun 2012, 23:23#19

Let me just say that as long as Morne is in the team - we will neutralize the backline play completely and play 10 man rugby with the backline being decorative and on the field for defensive purposes only.   He is really no flyhalf in the true sense of the word.   I would not have him to play with Goosen as understudy.  That could destroy Goosen's potential completely.    If his kicking game continues to fail in the remaining Super 15 games - it is time fpor Morne to be dropped completely.   I still think Grant is a better all round flyhalf than him and Goosen can learn more from him - that Steyn would ever be able to do.

If Morne stay we do not need a backline coach - it would be a complete waste of money.   In any event we need a backline coach with imagination - not the dummy we have now that really do not know how to coach a backline properly.   There is no idea about imaginative play and the opposition knows exactly whjat is going to happen and they have a counter for it.  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Jun 2012, 01:01
#20
27 Jun 2012, 01:01#20

Exactly redsman, now if only SAn's could see the obvious - if Bok rugby wants to move on, one dimensional Morne has to go

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Jun 2012, 12:24
#21
27 Jun 2012, 12:24#21

Snapster at al - I still think Morne back on kicking form and mentoring Goosen is the best we can hope for. 

I cannot agree that Morne doesn't get his backline away. This is nonsense. They bulle score a heap of tries so go figure. Morne's defence is good and he is playing better attacking rugby than ever. If his kicking were on song he would be playing hisbest rugby ever.

Now I think there is a fair chance his kicking will come right. Then he can mentor Goosen originally off the benc then making starts etc. Ease the kid in. Yougsters are not battle hardened

Beeno seeing the ideal way forward clearly.

— END OF THREAD —

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