MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 17:18#3
At a loss for words? What happened to your prediction that HM would choose Steppie and JJ. You talk about merit...why in hells name would he pick our most ineffective S15 centre combination?
04 Jun 2014, 17:56#4
Thank you - a dose of welcome reality. Well put.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Jun 2014, 18:08#5
Moz that fact that Meyer has not selected them is no measure given how pathetic his side is as a whole........JJ and Serfontein are two of many who have been pathetically ommitted
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jun 2014, 18:16#6
Nope Meyer is erring on the side of caution. Wee victor has conned him real good!There is nothing wrong with Reinach, Lambie Jan and even Mvovo has matured into a better wing.
Where are we going with some of these older guys. Schalk at 31 is still acceptable and so is Jean. But stop there. There is plenty of expereince in the Bok camp when Guthro and wee victor etc are excluded. Why make wee matfiled captain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pienaaar was pathetic when last playing for the Boks. Two non attacking halfbacks transferring pressure onto our two centers. Three slow loose forwards so its clear its tactical kicking and foward domination that are uppermost in his mind.
Nope Meyer is loosing a chance here to build the Boks.
I have serious doubts about Frans Steyn - he is overweight and not fit. Not his fault as he cant train properly but I am afraid we are not going to get the great player he once was back. This year will prove whther he still offers the Boks an option.
Morne is a competent flyhalf but Meyer desparately needs to get another guy up and running. Ditto at tighthead.
Let's hope Meyer gets it right for the remaining June internationals. Let's also hope he isn't going to flog Beast , Bissie and Jannie to death.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Jun 2014, 18:37#7
Our best test calibre locks are Bakkies and Matfield.......fuck me what an ignorant comment that is so far off the mark that its laughable
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 18:53#8
Victor lifts the Bools every time he plays...Bakkies is a mature lock who knows the game and is just as strong as he ever was. I can see successfully challenging when he is fully fit....but let's not rush him, the ankle situation could become chronic.
As for the loosies, who are we going to pick? Dumb muscle like Jacque du Plessis? A player like Lappies who has over bulked and lost effectiveness. Our loosies are supposedly slow, but how about the two tries by Habana at Ellis Park? Both set up by loosie breaks..by Vermeulen and Louw...and brilliant offloads. I can see Schalk adding a creative linking element ...but. I see no young loosies who add to the picture. Coetzee, Deon Fourie, CJ Stander....you can't be serious.
In the backs the JJ / Serfontein tide is going out....it's on to the next wave.Pollard looks good, Esterhuizen has superb physical credentials. Develop these guys. In the meantime HM has given Hendricks his chance. I rate this guy and I hope it works out.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 18:54#9
Victor lifts the Bools every time he plays...Bakkies is a mature lock who knows the game and is just as strong as he ever was. I can see Etzebeth successfully challenging when he is fully fit....but let's not rush him, the ankle situation could become chronic.
As for the loosies, who are we going to pick? Dumb muscle like Jacque du Plessis? A player like Lappies who has over bulked and lost effectiveness. Our loosies are supposedly slow, but how about the two tries by Habana at Ellis Park? Both set up by loosie breaks..by Vermeulen and Louw...and brilliant offloads. I can see Schalk adding a creative linking element ...but. I see no young loosies who add to the picture. Coetzee, Deon Fourie, CJ Stander....you can't be serious.
In the backs the JJ / Serfontein tide is going out....it's on to the next wave.Pollard looks good, Esterhuizen has superb physical credentials. Develop these guys. In the meantime HM has given Hendricks his chance. I rate this guy and I hope it works out.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jun 2014, 19:11#10
OK the model is based on EXPERIENCE - h as nothing to do with performance. Nothing - zero.
Lets ask some really honest questions here and answer them honestly:-
Francois Steyn
This guy was the only 12 in Super 15 who never once made a line break and beaten virtually no defenders. He had the worse missed tackle ratio of any center in the competition. The Sharks backline was malfunctioning and could not score tries.
Question - did Steyn had a successful season thus far at center in Super 15?
Morne Steyn
Morne Steyn signed a contract with Stade Francais and ended up as their bench player - not to be in their starting line up. A a result he has had limited game time this year.
Question - did Morne have a good season at Stade Francais and why is it that they do not use him as their starting line up if he is really of international quality?
Bakkies Botha
Bothha played in the Murrayfield test and came off the bench in the French test last year. Statistically he was poor in the Murrayfield test and average in the French test.
Question - is Bakkies really the best center in that position in South Africa or is his selection based on reputation only?
Victor Matfield
Matfield is physiclly under-par for present locks in the top countries - weighing circa 106 kgs. That may have been OK a decade ago - but the present lock weights are 118 to 126 kgs.
Question - is Matfield physically strong enough to compete with present international locks in Tight 5 activities?
Jannie du Plessis
Jannie is a regular penalty machine because he consistently try and get the upper hand in scrums using illegal methods. In the last 2 Super 15 games he gave away 7 penalties and picked up two yellow cards.
Question - is it justified to keep a penalty machine at prop in the team?
Schalk Burger
Schalk is a top loosie and one of the few in SA that knows what loosie play really entails. However, he is injury prone and missed nearly half of the games he is supposed to play in through injury.
Question - is it worthwhile to cotinue with a player subject to continuous injuries?
JP Pietersen
Played a few games for the Sharks in 2012 at 13 and was then replaced by Jordaan and moved back to wing.
Question - if he was successful at 13 - why was he replaced at that stage and never used as a 13 subsequently?
If somebody an give me a realistic answers to the above questions then one can look again at Meyers's statements about players. In any event the above are really only about a few players - similar questions can be asked about a number of other players as well.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 19:24#12
Why do we have to test Serfontein at test level, when he is flopping at s15 level....being outplayed by the likes of Hollenbach? I agree with your assessment on Hendricks Arizona, I also think he is better than Mvovo and a potential permanent wing....let's hope we are right. Goosen will also get his chance in the most gradual protective way HM can devise.
FOForeverArizona
Club Pro580 posts
FOForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
04 Jun 2014, 20:07#13
Serfontein is merely a representation to of youth in the team.Watermeyer and Hollenbach are way better then both JJ and Steppy.The fact that they were not selected to even sit on the bench sends out a clear message.I guess,my point is to breed new talent...new talent has to be allowed to be tested.Usually that is what the last 10mins was for isn't it?That's how Lambie got his his time to show and tell.
04 Jun 2014, 20:17#14
Moz, Serfontein has played well this year, I wouldn't take your word over a dead horse. Y ou don't even watch any of the Bulls matches.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jun 2014, 20:55#15
Mozart
There are three issues in team selection that plays a role with most coaches, namely -
* experience;* reputation; and* proven present performance
The model you talk about centers on the first two issues only - in this case there is NO PROOF that present performance played any role whatsoever in the selections of Meyer.
You can argue as much as you like but in most cases presenmt poerformances counted for NOTHING. Proof of that is in cases like -
* Morn Steyn - who played very little rugby the past six months not being in the startiong line up of Stade Francais and was nopt considered good enough by them and did have no proof of acceptable performance;
* Francois Steyn - as statistically proven - was the worst center in any of the franchices in SA in Super 15 = both in defense and attacking play;
* Jannie du Plessis had the worst disciplinary record of any of our props in Super 15.
* Gurthro Steenkamp is a bench player for Toulouse and not their starting loose head. How do you asses the performance value of such players in any event?
It is cirtually impossible to realistically assess the foreign club players in any event. They play against clubs of various strengths and there is no real data available as to player performances.
IF PERFORMANCE IS OF NO VALUE - HOW CAN WE ACCEPT THAT THE BEST PLAYERS FOR EACH POSITION HAVE IN FACT BEEN SELECTED?
If performance is not a criterium in Meyer's model - is that not a recipe for ultimate disaster?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jun 2014, 21:11#16
Mozart
You come up with really wild statements like Bakkies is as strong as he always was. Have you any proof whatsoever of that?
Dumb muscle like Jaques du lessis? Is there any dumber muscle than Alberts - who knows absolutely nothing about 80% of the functions of a loosie? If he does he never execute it - he never recover breakdown balls - he never does ball protection - he never passes balls = just to name a few.
The Bulls win because of Matfield. They start winning matches not because Matfield played - but their backline started to function better - something Matfield had no impact at all on.
However, I agree with Arizona as to his following statement:-
"One thing that does bother me is the paradigm created with the reliance on experience.How can younger players with talent gain experience if the coach does not have to faith to give them game time and gain there fore the required experience.To say that Goosen and Lambie and no good and that Serfontein and co will never be good enough is a sure lie and myth"
The reliance on experience and reputation only is not acceptable and a reason for making no changes to a team/ A stagnant team will always ultimately fail and that is what happened t our 2011 WC campaign and will inevitably happen to the 2015 campaign if the present selection of Meyer is maintained.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 21:22#17
Piss off scumbag I'm not interested in your boring repetitive drivel.
Shezza, I have watched every Bools game...every minute of every Bools game. I see a young centre who has found a step doesn't cut it among the adults...he needs to find his rapidly dwindling confidence at S15 level. But I wouldn't count on it. There absolutely nothing unusual about Serf.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jun 2014, 21:36#18
Look Mozart
I am trying to be civil - but you have no way to explain away the real issues raised by me - so suddenly "piss of scumbag".
I am not a scumbag - and is regarded as a gentleman by all people who knows me in real life. I tried to repeat an American Joke on this site and that suddenly made me a scumbag.
What is evident is that you have no answer to disprove the statements I made as to rugby issues and then reverts to your vile conduct on this site. I made a statement about the criteria Meyer used in his present squad and said he did not use the third one - namely proven performance. Why not prove me wrong and why revert to your normal abusive rubbish? Is it because you cannot prove me wrong?
In any event your responses are very amusing - si nce it shows you are in fact a rugby illiterate.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jun 2014, 21:47#19
A self appointed Gentleman...what a clinical way to prove the opposite.
05 Jun 2014, 00:03#20
Some reason I highly doubt that.
FOForeverArizona
Club Pro580 posts
FOForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
05 Jun 2014, 00:12#21
Sshezza-sheister...
In the extremely sexually perverted relationship between you and Mike...who wears the dress?
Nuff said,now piss off!
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Jun 2014, 00:31#22
Man is all this necessary!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jun 2014, 00:32#23
Er Sheezza.....I have been posting on these Boards for well over 10 years. Not once have I deliberately lied about anything....nor have I ever been caught in a lie. I don't believe in dishonesty....its an old school thing. If I tell you I have watched every minute of ever y Bools game you can take it to the bank.
RURugganut
Club Pro183 posts
RURugganutClub Pro183 posts
05 Jun 2014, 04:33#24
Mike have to agree with Moz..............................boring, repetitive, drivel, being rammed down our throats, all the time. You are a nice guy and make some good observations but move on or at least change the needle on that stuck record.
05 Jun 2014, 08:57#25
Meyer has certainly missed a trick here. What better time to blood a few new faces than in a meaningless game against a "'World'" XV?If it didn't work, so what? He could always revert to the tried and tested against Wales where SA's test record is on the line.If he's not prepared to chance his arm now then he certainly won't be during the RC and that only leaves the EOYT to experiment. I can't believe he's that stupid in regressing to a couple of locks who were over the hill years ago and to also selecting Pienaar at halfback and JP at centre.The hole he's digging himself gets larger by the day!
XTXtramick
Club Pro103 posts
XTXtramickClub Pro103 posts
05 Jun 2014, 10:10#26
I dont share the outrage of most of the posters, neither do I share the confidence Mozart has in the current team.
The best way to blood youngsters is within an experienced environment. Therefore some of the selections are understandable if not always forward looking.
Why Guthro instead of Marcel on the bench? The rest of the front rowers in the matchday 23 are experienced. Perhaps HM sees him as a tighthead. Perhaps he decided that he is already taking a risk with Brits and doesnt want to blood a young prop at the same time. If that was the case he might as well have given Visagie 20 minutes instead of Brits.
Lood has been out for a while and probably isnt matchfit. The lock selections make sense since Flip and Bakkies will play a half each. We might have been better served though with Lewies in the squad and giving him 30 minutes to see how he does as backup to Matfield. In this scenario we could give Flip a full game.
Play Burger instead of the tired Alberts but give Alberts a run as impact sub to see if he is more effective.
Ruan and Fdp will play a half each, but surely we want to see if Hougie is up to it from the bench. Select either Goosen or Serfontein to start surrounded by an experienced 12 in Frans or 10 in Morne. Ideal situation to test quality in a protected environment.
Why select JP at 13 when there are 3 other 13s in the squad, plus JP is unavailable for RC. If experience is the issue select an experienced 10/12 inside of the inexperienced 13.
At least he is blooding Hendricks among a mature back 3.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jun 2014, 16:33#28
Marcel Van der Merwe was out scrummed ....so much so when he was subbed the commentator said Werner was being brought on to add solidity. As for Hollenbach outplaying Serf, I'd say that was obvious.
Saff here's the big news of the day....you get no RWC points for playing a younger team. The object of the exercise is to win rugby matches....not to blood youngsters.
As for this being a great time to experiment with youngsters...most of whom will fail if history is prologue. It's an even better time to prove experienced Boks who are playing overseas still have the juice....most of whom will succeed if history is prologue..like Os, Monty, F du Preez etc.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jun 2014, 19:08#29
Saffex
I have news for you - the geriatrics do not win successive World Cups - that is why no country has won the WC twice. Problem is they kept the WC winning team virtually intact for the next WC and then as per normal they become unstuck.
It happened in every WC since 1987 - but in our case it is worse. Doing with the 2007 winning team exactly the same the normal rotten lot befell us in 2011. So what is Meyer doing? He wants as many as possible of the 2007 team to play in 2015 and that is the main aim of his selections.
The chances of success is zero-minus - but that does not count with Meyer. Performance is not a criteria either - just pick the players on reputation and everything will be fine - some miracle might happen that will wipe out the historic facts. .
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jun 2014, 22:38#31
This feels like another Werner Kruger moment Dave....how did that work out for you?
