Small Backline Players

The recent discussions on Swiel has set me thinking about this issue - especially since the majority of people seems to think that size is the sole criteria requiremet for backline players.

It is a fact of life that over the past century the size of people has increased substantially as a result of better nutrition and medical care - coupled to improved methodology in training and physical development.   Ler me give a few examples by referring to past great players - I am dealing here with only SA players:-

  *       The famous Piet Spiere Du Toit terrorized opposition in the late 1950's  He was 6'1" tall and weighed in at 96kgs.   Barely 50 years later and a 120kg prop is the norm

 *        Frik Du Preez was 6'2" and weighed 106 kgs.    A lock nowadays - 30 years later - must be  6'8" and weigh in at 118 kgs ro really feature

 *       Rob Louw was 6'4" and weighrd in at 93 kgs - In less than 2 decades the average weight of loosies increase by at least 15 kgs.

The above examples relate to forwards - but what about backline players?   Two more recent examples are quoted:-

  *      Naas Botha was 5'11" and weighed 75 kgs

  *     Ganie Gerber was 6'1"  and weighed 88 kgs

  *     Breyten Paulse  was 5'10" and weighed 80 kgs

Smaller Players at present playing internationally include

  *      James O'Connor   -   5'11"  and 87 kgs

  *      Conrad  Smith       -   6'1"   and 95 kgs

  *      Dan Carter            -   5'10" and 94 kgs

In the SA context there is much debate about the role of smaller players - especially in the backline - the  emphasis in the main is that heavier and bigger players are more acceptable.   The emphasis seems to be on brute force and the results are not really acceptable - we have the worst imaginable backline of all the four top-rated teams in the world - because there is one missing element - namely skill and clever playing (ball sense) - coupled to speed and ability to defend - even against bigger opponents.

Insofar as backline play is concerned the ideal situation is that we should actually look for better ball-players - the bigger in size the better - but size should not be the only norm.   At present we have too many players with minimal ball sense in the SA set-up.   Too many players neglect skill and try only to use force as an attacking weapon.   It just does not work - as is evident with the minimal success rate of the Springboks and some of the SA teams.

I believe we need a mixture of players in any backline.   We need bigger and stronger players and smaller and better ball-players in our backlines.   Some teams - eg the Sharks - use that format in playing the smallish Jordaan at center next two players such as Steyn and Pietersen.   They also have  small guys like Lambie or Michalak at flyhalf.   The Stormers try the same with De Jongh in their backline - but the latter has no idea about ball sense and he is in fact no attacking asset.    The other smallish player is Jantjies - another player showing mixed success - he does not possess natural skills in ball playing and has acquired the believe in passing the ball without any idea about the ourcome of moves, coupled to serious deficiencies in defence.

To survive in the era of bigger players - it is obviously essential for smaller players to develop certain skills to ensure survival in a competitive environment.     A few players have special skills - they are natural flair in ball-playing and often excell in all types of ball games - which they develop further through skill development.   Those are the players we need to develop and get into the team as well.    

The guys who have been sieves in the backline, are  big fellows....Taute and the robot JJ Engelbrecht. At 13 a secure tackler is more important than a power player....the ability to mark the outside gap, involves pace, instant acceleration and  agility. Miss a tackle at 13 and your defence struggles to recover.....power has more application at 12 and oddly enough at 10.

But what do we find at 10.....small guys like Lambie, Michalak and in the recent past ,Wilkinson, handle defensive duties with aplomb.  It's about technique. Lambie, for example, is a superb low tackler.

In South Africa we produce a lot of giant forwards.....but also a lot of very dangerous smaller backs. Our system encourages the smaller guy to participate and learn how to deal with a size disadvantage. So we get players like Keyser, Paulse, Brent Russel, Aplon and de Jongh. These guys have been among our most dangerous backs, and the only one who really had a defensive problem was Russel.

To exclude smaller players because of an assumed defensive vulnerability, when it's the porkers missing the tackles is stupid. Losing the attacking capability of a Breyton Paulse....who harried no less a player than Jonah Lomu out of many a test.....would be a waste.

Our next 13 looks to be Jordaan, a player with pure pace, who showed his potential in the S15 final. But I already hear doubts about his size. We don't need any more road pylons like Taute...we need pace.

Ah so now all of a sudden Taute is sieve at 13, what complete bullshit, try keep it accurate and the post might be worth reading

 A big player with skill is still going to be better than a small player wtih skill. 

Sonny Bill Williams could play inside and outside center with skill but he can still crash ball over the advantage line to pull in defenders and then allow the ball to cleared from the ensuing ruck quickly. 

Although a small player with skill is better than a big player with no skill. Gio Aplon is better than Zane Kirchner but about 10% lighter.  Kirchner was ok this year but he killed allot of backline movements by going to ground by not passing before geting tackled or offloading in the tackle

Actually a sieve provides a modicum of resistance.....maybe a funnel was a better analogy. Happy now Sapp?

We all know Shotgun Stuff'dxgs likes em big and thick, a bit like himself I guess. But on a more serious note it's clear that SAFFAS have no idea what to do with talented smaller players.

Let me put some extra kindling on the fire and look at the various backline players at present in the Springbok team speciafically:-

   *    Kirchner - your analysis is 100% correct in his case.   

   *    De Villiers - was initally I believe a player with ball sense but somehow lost it over the past few years.  He was not creative at all this past year and in fact produced nothing like he did in the past.   He became virtually a crashball player without any effective off-loading abilities.

   *    Taute largely played on strength only - no real creativity of skill shown.

   *    Francois Steyn - lost it all insofar as skill is concerned - onoly brute strength applicable in his case.

   *    De Jongh is from an attacking perspective of zero value - and being small in size - does not use skill and deception to off-set his size and weight disadvantage.  As a result he is worhtless as an attacking option.        

Like I said Moz, if you want to just bullshit about a player, your post is not worth reading, I stopped after the first paragraph as it was loaded with complete hogwash.

We all know Taute is a good defender, unless of course you are stupid enough to define him after two misses against NZ. Given how fickle you are chances are those two misses now define Taute's defensive abilities - quite pathetic really, but about par when it comes to you and your take on players.

If I used your measure, I'd have to conclude Schalk cant tackle after his straightforward miss on Lambie. Difference is, is that I am honest when it comes to players.

Denise trust a twit like you to come up with the crap that SA does not manage its small players - hello, if you actually knew what you were talking about you would realise that no test sides have small players playing centre, wing or fullback - but your ignorence shines bright

 Wales has a small Fullback in Leigh Halfpenny and he is half decent. Shane Williams was tiny yet he was regarded as a quality wing. 

Well Halfpenny looks like a bodybuilder these days and for a reason. He was too small for international rugby. Shane Williams is not a current player. If he had been younger today, he would not have made the side ahead of present giants Cuthbert and North

Saffex

Let me be quite clear - I started this threat to ger some controversy going.    Myself I prefer bigger players in the backline - but I wish to add so only if they have ball sense and is capable of playing clever play.   If not they get you nowhere.  

I don't think the only selection critria should be size - we have enough useless big dummies - who can only crashball - without any ability to effectively off-load balls in tackle situations.   The older ideas of trying to outwit opponents and draw in defenders to put players into space have vanished from our rugby.   The only thing that Francois Steyn and De Villiers ever try to do is to try and use force to go over players - they cannot side-step if they get a million chances.   They are totally ineffective and the  ball effectively dies with them - we have effectively got what I call a "dead backline".

In any event you forget about players like O'Connor - who is better than our large dummies.   Conrad Smith is not that big either.   None of the Argentinian players are really big either.   So your argument about size does not hold much water - does it?

Mike stop speaking kak, if Steyn cant step then how on earth did he beat those two defenders in that great break of his this year?

You will find O'Connor now weighs 91kg and Conrad Smith at 95kg is about right for a centre - so whats your point?

You also appear to be completely out of touch with modern rugby. Why on earth do you think backs have to often take the direct route?

Saffex

With due respect - if Steyn was so effective why did he produce only one line break of any significance in the 6 tests he played in this year?   Why did he not only once try to draw in defenders and off-load the ball effectively  in tackle situations?   Why - but for the times he did pass the ball (25% of all balls received) for the rest played 95% ineffective crashball - bringing any potential movement to a dead stop?

I am not saying the above of Steyn only - De Villiers did exactly what Steyn did - so as far as I am concerned BOTH were ineffective from an attacking backline perspective.

I believe the rot started with Morne Steyn and that may have detrimentally affected backline play by standing 10 meters  behind the gain line - leaving the centers in a virtually hopeless position.   We will see whether the backline of  the Sharks are effective with Steyn in the mix - remember he woul have Lambie and Jordaan on his side.   If the backline is less effective than it was in 2012 - the blame would rest on Steyn.

De Villiers will not be so fortunate - he would have another 10 meter behind the gain line flyhalf in Jantjies and outside of him the useless De Jongh.   With that combination the Stormers backline will be as dead as a doornail - as it was in 2012    

Your out of touch with modern test rugby is scary. Why on earth do you think Steyn only had one opportunity to break, do you think it might have anything to do with the lack of space at test level or maybe just its the fact that defences are so structured and tight these days, but hey what do I know?

One would swear the likes of Nonu, Barritt, Roberts, McCabe etc broke at will at 12 in their respective test sides - wake up man.

If Steyn was so bad then why did he and JP score the highest ratings amongst the Bok backs in the tests Frans played. If you knew anything about rugby, you will have realised that Steyn imposed himself physically - it was what was required of him given the lack of space and tight defences. You are so out of touch with what is actually happening in test matches its frightening.

No matter who plays 12 for SA, they will never break at will, its just not possible. What Frans brings is skill, physicality and presence and exactly why Meyer has him as a must.

But you keep believing the modern test 12 is meant to break and create space for all

I am sure Morne Steyn was to blame for most of the backline problems. The boks played 4 flyhalfs this year. 

The best performer was Goosen by far. He got injured early in the Allblacks test, but was exceptional against Australia in Pretoria. It has been many a year since we have seen the backline running like this. Non of the stop and start Morne Steyn. 

Morne Steyn should have been dropped much faster and the English tests should have been a chance to try a new flyhalf. 

Lambie should have been at 10 as the backup as Goosen. We need 2 quality flyhalfs to cover injuries and player rotation.

I would like to see a fit Frans Steyn combining with Goosen and also Lambie. If Lambie had played at 10 earlier in the year we could have seen him combine with Frans Steyn.

Frans Steyn had some really good games. In the tests against England he was very good. I still rate Jean Devilliers and think he is better at outsise center than inside center.

If Goosen was in the team with Devilliers and Frans Steyn I reckon the extra space at outside center would see Devilliers possibally scoring some tries and making allot more metres.

Devilliers is still one of the faster boks so his age is not so relevant. Paul Jordaan is his likely replacement but should remain the incumbent until a succesor is clearly better. This means at SuperXV level, not the club rugby curry cup stuff

Saffex

If you watch SBW you will note that he draws defenders in and off-load balls effectively in the process - in other words he does create space for other players.    if whar you say is true then how come tries are being scored by backline players?

What skill does Steyn brings to the process.   He crashballed 90% of the time - never off-loads in tackle situation - - never really break tackles - and is relatively slow to boot - he may have size but zero ball handling skills.   You might as well play Marcel Coetzee or Steph Du Toit at center if your argument is applicable.   

I also favour bigger and stronger players - but then they must at least have ball sense and skill - if hey do not have then you might as well play a prop in that situation.    Steyn in six tests showed zero skill.   I am not saying a no 12 center must break the line regularly - I am saying he must also be able to read the game and act accordingly.   He must not be predictable and goes for the same thing all the time.   

I do not think that we have an effective bckline at present.   The only test we really showed some backline skills was against the Australians in Pretoria - incidentally a game in which De Villiers was at 12 - and for the rest they flopped badly.   I - like many others - felt that Morne Steyn was to blame - and I srill think he is bad news.  In the Soweto test things went haywire as well - mainly because of the fact that Jantjies came on early.   Both Steyn and Jantjies have the same negatives - they stand way to far back in the pocket .   They do not attack the gain line.   Morne kicked or pass the ball to his no 12 slower than what is required.   Jantjies is worse - he runs a few steps towatds the center and then pass the ball - also too late.   In both cases the recipient get nailed before they reach the gain line and any backline movement dies on the spot..   

However, the argument is not about the flyhalf position - I hope never to see either of the mentioned two again in a Springbok jersey  - it is further out.   I think the centers play like robots - repeatedly doing exacrly the same thing over and over - leaving our star wings starved of ball possession.  

However - I said it before and I will say it again - if the Sharks backline under-performs in 2013 and showed less than they did in 2012 - there will be only one player to blame and that is Steyn.   So lets wait and see whether he can effectively up his game and be less predictable. 

Sapp, the coaches and Taute himself decided 15 was the right place for him. When Meyer really wanted to win against the Poms, he picked de Jongh ahead of Taute. Why? Because he thought deJongh was going to run rampant? Nope, because he had no confidence in Taute's defensive instincts.

Dave for your education, this is more than just tackjling technique....where Taute is mediocre at best. It encompasses positioning, bringing up the defensive line seemlessly and reading  the threats. Taute doesn't have a clue about all those.....hence he is headed to fullback.

Mozart

I deliberately never said much about the Taute issue - since as far as I am concerned he is not a contender for future selection at center.   I suspect Meyer made that change to De Jongh to cater for both more effective attacking and defensive play - but I think it was a major flaw - since De Jongh is one of the smaller players that has not shown any abilitities relating to ball sense and clever play - and thus not develop the required skills to off-set his small phyique.

I wonder whether Saffex at last realize what is wrong with Jantjies play - he must have noticed the fact that Jantjies plays at deep or deeper in the pocket  than Morne Steyn - as well as his highly artifical passing of balls.

Moz what complete bullshit, Taute had one game where he missed two tackles only a complete idiot would define him by those misses. Useless de Jongh has missed as many and was a complete flop at test level.

Taute will not stay at 15 for long, Meyer will play Goosen at 10, Lambie at 15 and Taute will challenge for 13 where he belongs. Taute had the best stats for a 13 in the S15 by some distance, made that more remarkable by the fact that he played for the poor Lions.

Mike your ignorance when it comes to Frans leaves me no option but to give up as its a pointless exercise.

But as a parting shot, please explain to me why Frans and JP received the highest players ratings for the Bok backs, if he was as poor as you say he was. I dont want to hear your usual ignorant crap, just answer the question

Saffex

Let me explain in detail the real stats on Francois Steyn:

Let me explain further that in all 53 tests played he managed to score 10 tries   The more telling one is in the Rugby Championship.   In 20 matches played he managed to score 2 tries - one of which was a charge down try scored against the Argentines this year.   For the rest he scored 1 try in 19 matches - that is less than even a poor player like De Jongh did.  It is hard to find a worst record like that from any SA backline player.

Let me go futher and analyze  the try-scoring data of Steyn - ie the 10 tries scored in total.   Four of hose were in games against smaller countries and northern tours.   4 of those were in the 11 games he played in the RWC.   Not really impressive - since the stats include low-ranking teams as well.   Now for the Championship - in 18 games played against new Zeland and Australia he managed to score 1 try.  

The above really are miserable statistical data nsofar as attacking rugby is concerned.   Really top class centers like Nonu and SBW are ten times better than Francois Steyn.  IF THAT IS THE BEST ATTACKING CENTER SOUTH AFRICA CAN PRODUCE THAN WE ARE INDEED IN DEEPER TROUBLE THAN WE THINK.

I cannot care a hoot about player ratings - those are generally done by individuals and can be distorted by them.   I care about stats - and those cannot be distorted.

LET ME BE BLUNT - STEYN BETTER UP HIS PERFORMANCES AND THUS JUSTIFY HIS CANDIDATURE FOR SELECTION.   HIS PERFORMANCES THIS YEAR WAS WORSE THAN BEFORE AND THAT IS MY MAIN POINT ALL ALONG.

As to Taute - his chances of playing again in future as a no 13 are ZERO.   Why do you refuse to accept that fact?    

 Mike - Frans Steyn has played most of his tests at fullback, so his performance cant be evaluated as a center. However his performance as a center at the 2007 worldcup proved to be a revelation. Many gave the credit to Eddie Joines to the improved backline performance, but it was only when Jean was injured that the backline played well. This year he had good performances at center, and he is better as an inside center the best we have so please do not argue otherwise. The bok game plan has for a long time been to have a fullback with big touchfinders to play a territory game rather than counter attack

I have to agree with Luke and snapster that Frans Steyn is the real deal. He just needs to ge fit and put his heart and soul into the job.

As for Taute nothing wrong with his defence at all. Its just that intrinsically he looks to b a good bet at fullback where he is more needed.

Frans will be playing in an international strength sharks nackline:

Reinach, lambie, Mvovo, Frans, Jordaan, JP and Ludik.  Soem goo dahrd tugby will soon get his right.

But the essesntial reason why the Bok backline is not performing is more to do with tactics and coaching.
We have seen what Campo achieved with the sharks backline some years ago, how Todd Louden ignited the bulle backline and how Eddie jones did the same for the Boks.

This is a bigger problem that simply poor players/poor player selection. There is absolutlely no reason for us, talentwise, not to have a performing Bok backline.

the real issue is not a size issue but rather a skill issue. the main skillsets a backline player should have is out and out speed. either in running speed or ball speed (speed and width on the pass ext) or running skills basics like side stepping ext and of course decision making. if there is 2 players that are the same in terms of skills and speed the bigger player will be more effective as rugby is a contact sport. that being said just being small does not mean one can be iineffective at all its just there is other focus areas and smaller player generally are more skill full to because the smaller player have other focus areas.

players like jordaan and co and nothing short of pure class and the great thing about it the next wave of players that are coming through the system are not oversized gym rats but rather highly skillfull players with vision and pure attacking abilty. playing this retarted style of forward obsessed kicking pattern will ot suite these players. as a coach you need to play with whats on offer

if i was a coach at the bulls then pierre spies would have never been moved to 8th man instead i would have builded him as a premier winger. due to shortsightedness on the part of SA rugby his potential has been wasted. if pierre was in NZ i bet you 80 bucks they would have labeled him a backline player.

in terms of franna one can lay blame at his game as he only forms part of the game plan at the looks of it meyer and his gatsby attacking coach van graan are obsessed at using franna as a phase based player only trying to bash his way over the gainline to setup midfield ball. classical overcoaching method from the neantherthal era of SA coaching.

with the advent of eddie jones the focus of the boks changed towards attacking play and better running lines and the training changed as the net result and the game that the boks played was the type of pattern that made us the force that we were in 2007. perfect balance of our normal game of defence but that much needed attackign edge added made us almost close to impossible to beat. the only game that the boks played within themselves was against the filth that is england in the final. we cant just lay blame on the national level but the unions are also to blame for rearending backline players skills.

the bulls and stormers have killed more backline play in the last 3 odd years than any other team as they are so obsessed with defence and tactical kicking only of which the bulls have managed to win the super cup 3 times with the pre elvs. since the rules changes that mindset has given them nothing what so ever.

all the unions needs to change the mindset and the boks need to take a leave from the kings in the respect ot coaching infrastructure. having a singular attacking coach and skills coach role is the way forward. not some hasbeen forwards coach than cant even attack his way out of a mcdonalds playpen

meyer is in for a rude awakening come next year as the real test of his methods will come under the spot light.

if anyone of you has a chance please have a look at a boks training day before a test you will see there is no attention to backline players running of any level of skills practices what so ever. i just shows where the mindset is to be frank. i saw for hours as morne just was hell bent on kicking with out even any effort to try and help his massive inablity to run with the ball.

Paul Jordaan will be 21 in january next year. He is currently  90 kg and will probably be around 92 kg next year. This is not too small.

What is certain is that if you fielded a backline made up of say 80 kg guys they would get munched- you know what I mean muncher!

A very skillfull small player may make it but not more than one or two at the most. Bigger guys can be equally skifful. We have seen steps and offloads, chips and great passing , speed from backs over 90 kg.

The siimple fact is that the mindset needs to change. We saw the WP play very differently to the Stormers. Its not simply the players were different it was a change in game plan.

I have never believed a non functioning backline as far as attack is concerned is the answer.

Consider the talent inherent in this backlne:

Hougaard, Lambie, Habana, Frans, Jordaan, JP and Taute. Now appoint Eddie Jones and watch what happens etc.

Meyer needs to get in a guy like Jones. However what hapened at Loftus. Was it Goosen who sparked us, Was it a change in game plan or both. I believe the bigger factor is the strategy. Witness WP. What game do you want to play then do you have the required skillset etc.

What is absolutely certian is that the talent is there to have a very good test backline.

Finally evidence suggests we do not kick more than other sides - we simply do not attack as effectively.

Beeno and Luke

Let me be quite frank - I have no problem with Francois Steyn at 12 - provided he improve on his performances this year.    He lost some speed and is slow off the mark - must get that right.   He also have to get back to effective off-loading of balls in tackle situations - the latter he did not do ONCE in the six tests he played in.  I think most of his shortcomings he can overcome if he loses a few kilos of fat as well.    All the above can be dealt with by decent coaching.

Looking at his performances in the tests he played in this year - I was overall not impressed at all - but then he played outside Morne Steyn and that could have accounted for the problem.   In any event he will have ample opportunity to prove himself in Super 15 next year and I am indeed looking forward to see him play.

I went to France to watch the WC in 2007 and my impression was that he was solid throughout - but not really a revelation as you put it.   Where I was a bit disapppointed was the tackle he missed just before the POMS nearly scored a try.    On the whole I think he had a satisfactory WC and that apparently established his claim to fame.

Carpetmuncher

You obviously know what you are talking about and I must admit there is not a single point raised by you I can fault at all.    What I cannot understand is how our backline players lose the plot on senior level - after watching some videos on school rugby.   Just google it by typing in his name and you will find it easily enough.  Have a look at the video on Timo Swiel - which I mentioned elsewhere and then tell me what you think about the issue.

Mike is it usual for a 12 to score many test tries huh?

Saffex

Easy answer - just google Nonu and SBW and see what they did from 12.   They were much more successful and the also engineered tries by their style of play - something you cannot accuse Francois Steyn of doing.   I am not saying I expect from a 12 to score a try in every match they play - I am saying that 1 try in 18 games against Australia and New Zealand just is not good enough.

However, I stay with what I said before - I think our only option at this stage will be to play Steyn at 12 - but if he does not buck up considerably he will not last long in that position.

Shotgun Stuff'dexgs fixation with Taute isn't surprising, like a dog with a bone between his teeth he carried on about Waylon Murray and that other superdud Wynand Olivier in exactly the same way, seems to me that Shotgun is one of those fools who needs a fixation. One wonders when he's going to stop barking, I mean with his selections and fixations you'd have to wonder when he is going to stop embarrassing himself.

Further to his lack of credibility was his fixation with retiring Habana and replacing him with Joke-ou Mvovo....Geeez!

Now lets see clevermike, have Nonu and SBW played 12, 13, 11, 14, 10 and 15 at test level? Not to mention these two play for the AB's who happen to play winning rugby - get it?

Beautiful Denise, do you actually know who Taute is you ignorant twat? Lets see Denise, why not lie and tell the board that I selected Murray ahead of Fourie at 13 or Olivier ahead of Jean and Frans at 12 - come on ugly mug, tell the world.

Fact is you will find I was all for Murray as Fourie back-up, a far better option than useless Adi Jacobs who was the back-up.

Same can be said of the classy Olivier, he was the best option as back-up to Jean and Frans at 12. But you are too much of a low life to acknowledge may stance on these players - better still too bloody stupid to grasp the facts - about par for an idiot like you - but its always a pleasure correcting you

"Same can be said of the classy Olivier...."

Good one Denise - I thought as much!!

Say umm Shotgun, I've never known anyone to abuse the use of the word "classy" as much as you.....care to explain your interpretation of "classy".....I might have missed something.

Denise, that head you have on your shoulders, now that is what I would describe as classy

Although I mewntioned smaller players in general initially - Paul Jordaan was mentioned quite regularly by various posters.    I would like to mention that Jordaan has the ability to be an all-rounder - he did on Under 20 level played at wing and center - he basically played at either 12 ot 13.

In response to a question by Saffex I referred also to James O'Connor - who in his playing career on both SUper 15 and Intenrnational level - played as a flyhalf, center and full back.

Although Saffex indicated that O'Connor weighs 91 kgs - the following stats is provided for both O'Connor and Jordaan:-

Height             -              5'11"

Weight            -              88kgs

However, the Melbourne Rebels stats indicate that O'Connor weighs in at 84 kgs

Basically ir is often find with younger players that the strict dietary and gym work adds some muscle weight of players and an increase of 3 to 5 kilos is normal between the ages of 19 and 23 that both at this stage weigh in at 90 to 91 kgs.  Another two years and both will weigh in at about 93-94 kgs.

O'Connor is a regular in the Wallaby team and in the 2011 tests basically played at center  - he was injured and did not play much rugby in 2012.

Incidentally - the other player mentioned in discussion who have already played at center for SA is Juan de Jongh. De Jongh's latest stats on Wikipedia is 5'9" and 88kgs. The stats previously given was 84 kgs. This proves my point that in their early 20's players can up their weight by 4 to 5 kgs. Dr Jongh has had a record of very averge performances in Super 15 and was a disappointment in the tests he played in this year. Personally I think he does not have the ball sense abilities of an O'Connor or Jordaan - hence his rather unremarable performances.

Basically my contention is that since O'Connor is an established Wallaby player - basically at center - I have no problem with Jordaan playing at center for the Springboks - especially bearing in mind the similarities in their physical stats.

Sorry Mike it was 90kg for O'Connor but chances are he is more than that now given the work in the gym

http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/australian-conference-2012-super-rugby-squads/

naaah Shotgun...he's 91Kgs..does that help?

Thanks Denise, your conrtibution as always is much appreciated. Fitting little man you have rolling about there - he appears to be all face and nothing else. Thats what struck me about you - massive ugly head on you

When ou snapster goes on a bit don't you feel a bit like this!

I tried various methods to get the SA Conference particulars equal to the Australian one provided by Saffex - and was unsuccessful.   Any suggestions?