and tell us how they got so many things wrong.
I am not hearing anything so I am assuming the oaks have disappeared under a mountaain of EGG! Hahahahahahahhahaha
Maybe snapster could begin by telling us how he got it all so wrong re Francois Louw! Ou maaaike how about Alberts?
Louw finally has to have silenced the Brussouw brigade but you never know!
Flip was good as Stransky mentioned anumber of times. Its one of the few times over the last two years that we have fielded two genuuine locks.
Alberts was good and added the necessary Grunt. Strauss was immense and the two older props got more involved. It was apity Trevor and Coenie didnt get more time in this sweries - ditto Lambie.
Spies is coming to an end. Again it shows Meyer will not tolerate poor form indefinitely.
Kolisi is not in Lappies class. He still needs a bit more time.
Pienaar is okay but not dynamic enough. I was pleased to hear Mallet echoing what I had said about him not taking on the opposition and being a kicking linking scrummie.
JJ was fine and coming along nicely. Of the backs only Basson was a bit quiet.
But all in all a good all round display
agreed having Eztebeth, Flip and Alberts in the pack gave us a physical edge that was lacking last week against Scotland. Looking forward to the 4 nations. Our backline attack is the best it has been in years, and our forwards look like they are getting the physical edge that could dominate the wee allblack pack
CleverMike
Alberts only got the ball mostly in traffic and he dominated the collisions and the advantage line. The time he did get the ball in space he rightly distributed it and this was one of the passes in a try. He wasnt making many metres because he was mostly playing a tight role where he was tackled by 2-3 player at once.
He gives go forward ball, and it often takes a few of their big men to take him down. He pulls in oppostition defenders when dominating the gainline and allways allows the ball to be recycled quickly. I also think he takes the wind out of the oppostion as I think who ever tackles him is left with bruises. His tackles are also what has dubbed him as the bone crusher. He makes a significant contribution in the physical domination stakes.
CleverMike
Alberts only got the ball mostly in traffic and he dominated the collisions and the advantage line. The time he did get the ball in space he rightly distributed it and this was one of the passes in a try. He wasnt making many metres because he was mostly playing a tight role where he was tackled by 2-3 player at once.
He gives go forward ball, and it often takes a few of their big men to take him down. He pulls in oppostition defenders when dominating the gainline and allways allows the ball to be recycled quickly. I also think he takes the wind out of the oppostion as I think who ever tackles him is left with bruises. His tackles are also what has dubbed him as the bone crusher leaving the opposition bodies in bruises and tatters. He makes a significant contribution in the physical domination stakes.
first off beeno louw played well that i will give him that but samoa is well known for the lack of skills on the dirt so its like comparing a 100 point win over nambia as a example...his real test will be against NZ, the wallies and pumas. so please reserve your judgement for the real teams not that i saying samoa is not a real team but we need take this game on its merits. we played very well under circumstances but will stil hedge my bets that brussouw would have made a bigger impact at the breakdown than louw.
nobody bashed louw so please get of the high horse. the statement that we are making is that louw is good but not great.
alberts had a massive injury layoff so he wont be at his best in terms of his ball carrier ablitys he is one of the best there is. that being said as you have said he does have a lot of issues as he is about 120 odd KG's and like most things there is pros and cons in being so big. but if you have a quicker loosie playing with him to do tend out counter balance his shortcomings. its all about the balance. for me i would love to see a brussouw, lappies, alberts combo in the team.....speed, running,, breakdown specialst trio that could have all the hallmarks of a legendary team combination.
Sorry Muncher Louw has performd against good teams. Eg against England he was superb. England you recall thumped the wee abs.
Right now he looks to be the pre-eminent number 6 in world rugby. Certainly better than your picks of Brussouw and Daniel.
I do also hope you are getting a glimmer of how forward domination assists good backline play by providing good go forward ball.
Now just imaging if we had fielded forwards like wee brussouw, Daniel and wee matfield against Samoa. Hahahahahahahaha only the daftest of hatters would want that.
I am not saying you thought Louw was no good but you had brussouw ahead of him - a no no. Snapster doesnt even have Louw in the Bok team!!!
Meyer got is right again.
Team Win loss draw Comment nz - 2 Kicking cost Dunedin test Oz 1 1 Loss due to goal kicking Argentina 1 1 Draw due to goal kicking England 3 1 Draw due to goal kicking Scotland 2 Ireland 1 Italy 1 Samoa 1 Totals 10 3 2 So Meyer has lost 3 matches out of 15 (Two of which only happened because of Morne going awol re rhis goal kicking) which is a loss record of 20%. Given normal standards of goal kicking Meyer would have lost one match! I If you exclude the draws he has won 10 matches out of 13 or 77% If you consider departure of players and high level of injuries the performance is even more remarkable. Meyer bashers need to think about this.
Now, now Hasbeeno...there you go again with your "neutral draws"! Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!
10 from 15 is 66.66% so forget about 77%.......you just don't give up do you? An excuse for every loss or in the Boks' case, multiple losses!
Ho there moooo la! I dont want to challenge nz schooling too much but do then agree the loss ratio is 20%? 3 out of 15.
yeah sorry beeno your maths is off a bit........i are one never punted daniel...he plays well in the sharks pattern that is very very quick. very much a NZ pattern of play. in the slower bust up test match style he has not other skills to offer so he wont be effective. brussouw on the other hand has a proven international track record against the best in the world mccheat and pocock ext so your one eyed view just based on his size is very very one dimensional...he punches above his weight but does so a lot better than louw can. his skills on the deck is alot better and he is much more dynamic on attack. so you can recide all the stats you want but pound for pound brussouw is better....
why did you think louw went overseas in the first place beeno ??? he was the second in line behind brussouw and burger so that in itself tells a massive story.
in terms of your winning % a draw does not count as a win and the winning % is 66% as 10/15 is 66%. with the type of game meyer played last year i recon 66% is about 30% above what he should have gotten but things are looking quite a bit better but the real tests are around the corner so lets wait and see if meyer will stick with this game pattern or revert back to the aimless kickin forward size obsessed bash bash bash style where the backline players are decorative tackle bags..
C Muncher... It will all come down to whether the first run by the Boks' backs is successful or not. Hopefully Meyer gives players like Le Roux licence to have a go and if he doesn't then he should be shot!
However if Le Roux gets smashed in his first attempt and loses the ball then I fear the Boks will revert to type and kick all day. Can't wait for the Rugby Championship this year!
Muncher - why do you think JP is going off overseas or Bekker or Habana or Jaque Fourie etc etc - its the boodle oak. Its not because they would have been out of the Bok mix.
Brussouw is not remotely in Louw's class. Brussouw had one good test series against the Lions and that was that. The fetching stats were supplied by some one here and Brussouw was down the list. Brussouw is a good player, Louw a great one. Get used to the idea.
Please wake up muncher by now it should be as clear as daylight. But enough here of these silly and unncessary "debates"
I have some more very disturbing facts for the Meyer bashers. We have heard them say repeatedly that the Boks can't score tries. While there is some truth in the fact that the backline did not function last year Meyer bashers should bear in mind that acording to Meyer the Boks scored the second most test tries in the world last year.
Another thing for the oaks to "think" about!!!
Beeno sent them home to think again!
moolaa
Status: Squad member
Posts: 217 RE: So could the Meyer bashers please front up
June 24, 2013, 10:51:20
.............then I fear the Boks will revert to type and kick all day.
Don't believe everything you hear. Out of 12 test played in 2012, SA kicked more than the opposition on only four occasions. The first was the second test against England on the England tour, where we kicked 25 times against the 21 of England. In the RC we kicked more in our second test against Aus where we kicked 22 times to their 21 times. The thirdtome was against Scotland when we kicked 25 times to their 18 times. The last time was against England again on the EOYT when we kicked 33 times to their 29 times.
All in all, in 2012, we kicked the ball out of hand on 313 times against our opponents' 327 times.
Windpomp there are so many mistaken impressions to sort out and so little time given the scale of the problem!
It's been a very hard week for the Meyer bashers and I am afraid there is nowhere really to turn! Snapster is well advised to lie low.
A 20% loss ratio is very acceptable given all the circumstances mentioned.
stats show SA kicked less yes i agree 100% but it does not show when and where the boks kicked. most of the kicks was based in the opposing teams half and was by all accounts very 50/50 box kicks. ineffective tactical kicking is cannon fodder for the AB and wallies. in terms of decision making there is nothing worse than building momentum in the opposing teams 22 just to kick possession away and being on the defence for 5 odd min. i am not against kicking but the AB and wallies are better tactical kickers than us. we also tried to run from slow ball and tried to run with the forwards off quick ball on numours occasions last year which is really school boy error stuff....one thing that i have picked up from this year obvouisly a the masterfull chean roux picked up on it is that our decision making with ball in hand has picked up quite a bit. so the pattern has been more effective so far this year. as more the players play this pattern the more effective and ruthless our players will become.
i am not bashin meyer beeno please get your facts straight. since getting chean on board we have seen a different bok team and for me its a positive sign but its to early days yet to sing the praises as the boys have faced really watered down opposing team. the scots did not come to play but rather spoil samoa was playing the man instead of the player and the pizza boys were here on holiday. so lets rather focus on the good points but we need to be awake to the fact the the real trials starts in the castle champs. there has been quite a lot of players that tend to go silent like louw and spies against the really big teams like ab and wallies so this castle comps will show and meassure how good they really are
Bulltwang. Where do you get that most of the kicks were in the opponents' 22. Morne hardly ever kick in the opponents 22. If and when he kicks in that area, it is either for a drop kick, or for a cross kick to one of the backline players. You and I are not watching the same games. A great deal of his kicks, if not by far the most, are from defensive kicks from his own 22. I had access to a site, some time ago, where you could actually see an analysis of the kicks. The site was open for a while again, but they have recently blocked it again.
then please do give us those stats.....i am looking for the % of kicks in the opposition half.....then i wil have a look at the actual game it self and see according to the match situation if those relevant decision to kick was the right one....i heard of a site as well but i am not sure if we are talking about the same one but that site had inaccurate info. stats need to be taken in context of the game. when and where the kicks where made. the AB kick the ball more but kick a lot smarter than us.
5 Reasons why we won
Loftus
Loftus
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Loftus
epic post mike spot on.....these stat whores that like to twist numbers to prove there own deranged one eyed views have no idea of how the game is played. i have access to a great system call outfox that is the best stat related software package in the world at present and not even that can give you the full picture.
carpetmuncher
Status: Senior player
Posts: 1255 RE: So could the Meyer bashers please front up
June 24, 2013, 17:00:56
then please do give us those stats.....i am looking for the % of kicks in the opposition half.....then i wil have a look at the actual game it self and see according to the match situation if those relevant decision to kick was the right one....i heard of a site as well but i am not sure if we are talking about the same one but that site had inaccurate info. stats need to be taken in context of the game. when and where the kicks where made. the AB kick the ball more but kick a lot smarter than us.
I have said that I do not have access to those stats anymore. I have actually contacted them again to try and get hold of some of it, but they are adamant. They are a huge organisation and their clients, amongst others are the All Blacks, Barclays Premier league, Arsenal, Bayern Munich, The BLues, Canterbury, The Crusaders, The Hurricanes, etc. There is a whole list HERE.
I still have some of the spreadsheets. I used to download them and kept them. They are really lengthy and I cannot post them here. I just had a look again, for example, at the team stats for the SA teams after week 7 of the 2012 S15. The kicks alone are analised as follows:
The first group is Types of kicks, which are sub-divided into Kick in Play, Kick in own 22 and Penalty kicks.
The second group is Possession Lost, which is divided into Kick In Touch (Bounce), Kick In Touch (Full), Caught (Full), Collected (Bounce), Own Player - Failed and In Goal.
The third group is Retained Kicks, divided into Try Scored, Own Player Collected and Opposition Error.
The fourth group is Errors, divided into Out Of Play, Charged Down, Territory Lost and Dead Ball.
There is also a further analysis for Goal Kicks.
The data for carries, defence, line-outs, etc, have their own spreadsheet each. Every aspect is analised in a very detailed manner.
Back to this argument, though, it was according to those stats that I have deducted that there is a serious general misconseption about the nature of the kicking game.
I can try and give the stats in some way, but I am not going to go through all that trouble just for the sake of these argument. Trust me that it goes way beyond just counting the number of kicks in a game and then making a deduction from that. Like Mozart has said many times before, stats ins not as simplistic as some of us would like to believe.
As I said, I actually contacted the guys and the only way that one can access that data is to buy their program which has an annual license fee of around £12,000. That is what the sports teams fork out for it. Then you have access to the data complete with video footage in raw and in analised format.
