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FORUM / RUGBY /  So how do you improve the Springbok team?

So how do you improve the Springbok team?

Started by Mozart20 REPLIES575 VIEWS· 06 Aug 2013, 01:42
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2013, 01:42
#1
06 Aug 2013, 01:42#1
You start by recognizing there is a Springbok team....not just a collection of players. There is a team spirit, a sense of comradeship, an understanding of what the other guy can do and is likely to do. A team. Sometimes that team may even not have the best individuals at each position....for a host of reasons. - You also recognize the value of the jersey. The need to earn it to keep it's currency. The dangers of handing it out carelessly.You recognize the value of experience, of knowing test match tactics and intensity, knowing the grounds in their test match guise....knowing the players in test match mode....a very different thing from your pool S15 match. - With those things in mind, the obvious place to start is the current Bok team, which in the last 12 months has defeated every team on the planet, but the ABs. It's a competent team. Weaknesses probably exist in scrumming and open back play......strengths in the lineout, mauling, kicking and defence. We are more strong than we are weak. But given the chance we'd like to be better, to scrum better and to be more effective ball in hand. We'd like to do this without weakening the team in other areas. So who should be changed from our team that played Samoa? - 15 FB Willie le Roux 14 W Bryan Habana 69 13 C JJ Engelbrecht 12 C Jean de Villiers (c) 11 W Bjorn Basson 10 FH Morne Steyn 9 SH Ruan Pienaar 1 P Tendai Mtawarira 2 H Adriaan Strauss 3 P Jannie du Plessis 4 L Eben Etzebeth 5 L Flip van der Merwe 6 F Francois Louw 7 F Willem Alberts 8 N8 Pierre Spies Replacements 16 H Bismarck du Plessis 17 P Trevor Nyakane 18 P Coenie Oosthuizen 19 R Juandre Kruger 20 N8 Siya Kolisi 21 SH Piet van Zyl 22 FH Pat Lambie 23 C Jan Serfontein - We see that already with the selection of Willie we are trying to attack the running weakness. This is a 50:50 shot. There is no denying his comfort, time and creativity with the ball. But there is also no denying innovating is risky business and can backfire. It's a worthy experiment....but only an experiment. - On the wings Habana is top notch, but Basson is a pathetic defender. Dropping him will hurt the efficacy of our kick and chase, but it has to be done. Not with Mvovo though....who is tremendous until he is matched against quality. JJ is the obvious answer here, which would allow us to play Jean and Serfontein. All things being equal JJ deserves to play on at 13, but I think he is a better wing. - From a full cupboard of flyhalves a year ago, we are down to Morne. Jantjies has failed, Lambie has failed and Goosen is hurt. This will certainly not improve the running game, but I see no viable alternative. - If F du Preez is still F du Preez I'd bring him back in a heart beat. This took a while to negotiate and was a purely positive step, not a reaction to injury....Pienaar is dull and not a good defender, Vermaak below test class and VanZyl/ Reinach not ready for the lead role. - In the pack I'd be tempted to try Herbst at tighthead....for me he is the only tighthead who hasn't had bad days at the S15 scrummng office. Bismarck and Strauss are great players....they should both be on the park. For the moment I'd stick with Strauss as my starter. The Beast is our best prop. - Likewise Etzebeth chooses himself. ...and now we get to Kruger. Kruger is a wonderfully mobile lock, as good as any 5 in the lineouts and superb on offensive and defensive kickoffs. But he is not a strong man. Bekker ticks all the boxes but is gone. So many argue bring in another 4 lock like Flip Flop or Lood Voet. But how is adding another slow lock going to add to the running game....the contradiction is obvious, fans want a Bakkies who moves like Victor. Other than Bekker I know of no such lock. - And in the loosies we have an obvious change to make with the Spies injury. Alberts provides grunt and trades mobility with Kruger who provides speed from lock. - I have changed my view on Brussouw.....he is still a force and watching George Smith dominate the S15, Brussouw has to be considered.. That means we move Louw to the blind side and have dual fetching....or left/right fetching if you prefer. This trio should ensure us plenty of ground ball, a fundamental to attacking rugby. - On the bench Coenie should shift to loosehead, I'd keep Janniie in the mix at tighthead, Bismarck as well. Lambie has to rebuild, the bench is the place to start and Serfontein would be replaced by our most dangerous runner from broken play, Aplon...JJ can shift to centre if needed. Which leaves a lock to choose, I suppose Flip Flop. And a loosie. Oddly enough I might give Jacque Potgieter another shot. All that energy and power late in the game is impactful and he was the best Bool against the Brumbies. At scrumhalf I'd give van Zyl a run off the bench. - So we haven't found many players that can really upgrade our running play, but Serfontein is better than Basson....F du Preez is a brilliant player, his sniping destroyed the Poms in the RWC pool game....and he almost won that Aussie QF. - In the pack we have maintained our lineout play while possiby improving our wobbly scrum....with Herbst. The loosies remain a problem, there is no great running option like Big Joe. Recognizing that we have opted for hard yards man Alberts and plenty of ball from Louw and Brussouw. - Not a complete answer....but we have maintained team identity, improved ball winning capacity, improved the scrum with a tighthead technician, strengthened our defence and provided creative spark with F du Preez.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2013, 02:22
#2
06 Aug 2013, 02:22#2

Its easy to improve that Bok side, a side that was pretty poor last year bar that test against Oz. 58% win record is just not good enough.

 

Willie and Habana are the obvious choices at 15 and 11. Willie is no experiment, he is just what we need in a backline devoid of attacking instincts. Agreed we have to move on from Basson, he is piss poor and always failed at test level. With JP unavailable, the speedster Mvovo is our best option. v/d Heever should have received better treatment from the Stormers, but sadly their snubbing has lead to him leaving for Ireland.

 

JJ would be completely wasted on the wing.....I dont get how anyone can conclude he is better on the wing, given we saw very little of him there in the years he played on the wing.....he got very little game time back then. JJ has been the best SA 13 I have seen in years, he has more potential than the likes of Fourie and Joubert. He adds a whole new dimension to centre play given his speed and feet. Its been a while since a centre made me sit on the edge of my seat. I expect things to happen when he hasball in hand. Serfontein has the same buzz about him. Neither Serfontein or Jean would make an impressioin at 13 for they simply do not have the pace. They would end providing us with something solid, nothing special. Serfontein and JJ have to be our centres, its time to move on from Jean.

 

Morne is not better than Lambie on current form. I dont buy into Lambie being poor this year at all. An out of form Lambie is a better pick than the bog ordinary Morne at 10. He has lead us nowhere for years, so why should that change now. I'm with Sas, I'd rather see Pienaar at 10 than Morne.

 

du Preez is a ridiculous selection and has Meyer's conservatism written all over it and more than anything, another instrument in that out of date kick and chase tactic. In the absence of Hougaard, v/Zyl should have started.

 

Beast is a must at 1 as is Bismark at 2 with Strauss on the bench. We need Bismarks strength come test time. Jannie might still work at 3, but Coenie, Malherbe, Marcel v/d Merwe and Frik Kirsten are the future. Herbst looks handy but I am not yet convinced. I would select Jannie at 3, but would get Coenie on at 3 as part of his development as a 3, for that is where we need him. He has been good there all year for the Cheetahs.

 

Eben a must, Kruger a definite not. He might be mobile but you never see him with ball in hand. He is no master in the line-outs, he takes his ball but is hardly a stealer. He provides no grunt and is a sad excuse for a test lock. We have many youngsters who provide far better options. Play the impressive de Jager at 4 and move Eben to 5.

 

Brussouw was a must for 6 and Meyer should have chased CJ Stander for 8.

 

This Bok side is better than the one that played Samoa:

 

15. Willie 14. Mvovo 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Habana 10. Lambie 9. v/Zyl 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Jannie 4. de Jager 5. Etzebeth 6. Brussouw 7. Elstadt 8. CJ Stander 16. Kitshoff 17. Coenie 18. Strauss 19.Flip 20. Coetzee 21. Reinach 20. Jean 21. de Allende

 

My Bok side come next year would be:

 

15. Taute 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Willie 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Brussouw 7. Arno Botha 8. CJ Stander 16. Kitshoff 17. Marcel v/d Merwe 18. Strauss 19. Jacques du Plessis 20. Elsadt 21. v/Zyl 22. Lambie 23. Frans

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
06 Aug 2013, 02:47
#3
06 Aug 2013, 02:47#3

Just got done writing what I think of the FDP experiment and I agree he could be a huge asset - to our tactical and running game if Meyer is genuine in that endeavour. FDP has the ability to read the situation and know when its on and when its not.

 

Have also been saying for a while that the JJ to wing move is a great idea - actually surprised Meyer didn't try it in the June tests. If it doesn't work, then move him back to 13. The greatest benefit obviously is to get your best playmakers on the field at the same time and this would make room for Serfside Motel to set up shop at 13 or 12. JJ has the pace and step for wing, my only question is how is he under the high ball?

 

If the AB's are going to persist with their plan of an increased tempo game plan this year (have to wonder about that because didn't really see it against France) it would make sense to have two fetchers on the team to spoil that, would it not? I am a little skeptical that type of expansive game plan will succeed against the best international teams however - the field just isn't any bigger, but the speed and accuracy of the defensive players and defensive structures are constantly improving. Test matches have a slower pace than the S15 and there is good reason for that.

 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2013, 02:51
#4
06 Aug 2013, 02:51#4

So we spent all of last year looking for a Bok 13, we find the perfect answer this year in JJ and now some want to move him to wing - I give up!

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2013, 02:51
#5
06 Aug 2013, 02:51#5

Dave we both want the Boks to do more....ball in hand. My approach is to incrementally improved the existing players, focus on missing skills and improve execution. Yours is to sweep clean. Both approaches will work at various points in time.....but how many times haven't you seen wholesale changes lead to abysmal results. The team loses its reference points, loses, loses confidence and a downward spiral takes hold.

 In business I loved it when our competitors put all their focus on new products......we took the old favourites, spent our money to dominate share of voice and laughed at the chaos as our market shares jumped. Put a bit of coaching behind proven test players, spice up the brew with a Willie and you have your best shot. 

 

But I can't formulate a differential equation to prove all this.....so we will just have to see. But Meyer needs to get more attacking nous to guide the team

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2013, 03:45
#6
06 Aug 2013, 03:45#6
Mozart I am always amazed at you - everybody is pointing out that Alberts is too slow to be a loosie so suddenly you find a new solution. Kruger is not physical enough as a lock - but he is very mobile and he can off-set the lack of mobility of Alberts. I have yet to see this speedy lock performing - there is no evidence of that anywhere and Mozart has conjured up a fiction that we should now suddenly all believe. None of the stats bear out this image of a speedy lock - but what is worse is the so-called grunt of Alberts. Statistics and actual viewing of games gave no confirmation that Alberts is a strong ball carrier - matter of fact stats indicates he is not at all - and he has no bone crushing tackles - those pointed out by Mozart as bone-crushing was bog ordinary. I mean a bone crushing tackle surely must lead to a turnover in possession or a player being tackled backwards followed by a penalty. Look inventive language is wonderful - but it does not present anything on the field of play. Everybody knows the Mozart doctrine - back to the future. Anybody is worth retention in the Springbok team - it must be more difficult to get out of the team than into it. Performance is in some cases of past Springboks not used as a norm for indicating lack of performance and if it is negative then it is even more necessary to ignore it. Since 2009 there has been a serious deterioration in Springbok rugby and the players from that era - so strongly supported by you - are all players that contributed to the deterioration. That being the case - is it not time to judge them on their merits and not invented merits based on fiction. That remains the question. The team supported by you will be continuing the downward trend mentioned and there is no doubt that players like Morne Steyn w2ill not make the grade on test level. The Springboks were lucky in the test last year against the Aussies in Pretoria - they met a team weakened seriously by injury and they did not have Morne Steyn at flyhalf. Those are two of the foremost factors that contributed to a very big win by the Springboks. Your views are from the stone age of rugby - and it is for me no pleasure to see how the stupidity of Meyer is dragging SA rugby down the drain. Maybe it is his avid supporters like you who should be equally blamedfor the present disaster in Springbok rugby.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2013, 04:07
#7
06 Aug 2013, 04:07#7
Once again Maaik you have a logic problem. The team I suggest starting, has 6 players from our starting team in the 2011RWC QF. The latest AB team had 7 starting carry overs from the 2011 RWC final team, and would have had 9 if Carter and McCaw were available for both games. - Matey I also think JJs instincts are that of a wing. Much has been made of some nice runs he has had since Serfontein partnered him. But they were wing type runs, in my view.....deny him space and he becomes ordinary. To me that sounds more like a wing.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2013, 12:51
#8
06 Aug 2013, 12:51#8
Mozart Jean de Villiers recently said that experience is good - but the overriding objective is performance. That being the case the numbers so liberally quoted by you are really immaterial. If the performance of the left over players from the 2011 WC has deteriorated badly - and in cases like Morne Steyn and Jannie it did - why should they be retained in the team? Purely because of reputation and non-performance does not count? That always is a recipe for disaster. We did badly in 2010 and worse in 2011 - showing that the 2007 WC team has deteriorated to an alarming degree - but there were no changes of significance in players in the period 2007 to 2011 and - when a lot of players quitted after the WC - partly because they were in fact way past their sell by date, Meyer was forced in to making changes to the team. He started off badly - trying to retain as many of the unsatisfactory left-overs from the 2007-2011 period - and the indications are that he is still in that mode. You talk about numbers of players from 2011 still in the team. That really is meaningless. The AB's obviously makes less changes to their WC winning squad - that is a trend noticeable in all WC winning teams - but even they have still got too many 30 years plus players in their team despite the changes they made - and are still not the team they were in 2011. Numbers means nothing in the scheme of things - like De Villiers said performance means more than anything else. The problem is that a drove of players Meyer brought in since he became coach perform disastrously poor - both in the Super 15 and in tests - and he is too short-sighted to see that as a problem.
SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
06 Aug 2013, 13:11
#9
06 Aug 2013, 13:11#9

Instead of writing a 3000 word essay about pipe dreams and what ifs

 

 I have a simple solution 

STOP THE BULLS WASTING TALENT

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2013, 15:53
#10
06 Aug 2013, 15:53#10
Moz what makes JJ's instincts that of a wing, he looks to beat his man with pace and a step, much like O'Driscoll did in his prime. He also runs good lines, the trait of a good 13. Deny any back space and they look ordinary, hence the fact centres struggle to make impressions in the modern game. At least JJ does have the physical attributes to impose himself physically when denied space, unlike a player like de Jongh who is a liability in contact. I hear you regarding your incremental additions to the side, I'd be happy to condone that if some of those retained were worthy........the likes of Morne, Pienaar and Kruger are not. My theory is you retain an experienced core in Habana, JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Jannie, Brussouw and Louw. At a push I'd live with retaining Jean as he is still playing well enough, but I'd want to see Serfontein utilized more than Jean at 12. To this experienced core you add the obvious in Willie, Taute, JJ, Serfontein, Goosen, Lambie, v/Zyl, Coenie, Etzebeth, Steph du Toit, Kolisi, Elstadt, Coetzee, Labascagne, Arno Botha and CJ Stander and you have your Bok squad sorted, with others able to make inroads like Kitshoff, Malherbe, Reinach, de Allende and the likes.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2013, 16:30
#11
06 Aug 2013, 16:30#11
Saffex I often disagree with you about team selection - but here I do agree with you. I differ slightly inasmuch as that I would like to see all of Serfontein, De Villiers and Engelbrecht in the starting line-up. And I don't like Basson as well. The solution should in my opinion be to play Serfontein at 12, De Villiers at 13 and Engelbrecht at 14. However, there is one persistent problem - and that is that of flyhalf. We can have a firebrand backline - but with Morne Steyn at flyhalf it would not be utilized properly. He is not and will never be an attacking flyhalf - he remains as you said previously one-dimensional and from a backline attacking perspective a serious liability - hence my preference for Lambie as well. Innsofar as attacking play is concerned - the All Blacks use their speedy loosies in two ways - they become part of the attacking move (thus creating defence problems for opposing teams) and they are on hand to recover balls in tackle situations. That is why I like players like Arno Botha and Labuschagne - their ball handling skills are on par with most backline players. The duds picked by Meyer is from that perspective absolutely useless and is going to cost us dearly. Louw I can accept - but I cannot accept to other immonile loosioes - that is looking for trouble. At a stretch I think that Vermeulen could be selected as a stand-in for Botha - but Alberts is a huge liability and too one-dimensional (fictionally I must say) to be of any use. As to the lock situation - VCan der Merwe and Kruger has been around for years and have always been average to poor. I would prefer the younger generation and found De Jager to be impressivce and a very hard worker in the Etzebeth style. Jacques Du Plessis is already a class above Kruger and Van der Merwe. By the way I see Jacques Engelbrecht has signed up for the Bulls for next Super 15. He is almost guaranteed a place in the Bok squad because of that signing. That remains the weakness of Meyer - above all - he prefers the Blue Bulls players to anybody else. .
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2013, 16:47
#12
06 Aug 2013, 16:47#12
Dave....Jean also had a long stint on the wing in tests. By the time he switched back to centre he was a more settled test player. I can't see playing wing will damage JJ's long term centre prospects. But having him there allows us to play our four best attacking backs...Habana, Jean,JJ and Serfontein. Absent that Serfontein and JJ fight for one spot.
KR
KruegerRookie14 posts
06 Aug 2013, 21:19
#13
06 Aug 2013, 21:19#13
My squad for the first match of the RC: #1. Tendai Mtawarira #2 Adriaan Strauss (vice-captain) #3 Jannie du Plessis #4 Eben Etzebeth #5 Lood de Jager #6 Lappies Labuschagne #7 Deon Fourie #8 Duane Vermeulen #9 Piet van Zyl #10 Morné Steyn #11 Raymond Rhule #12 Jean de Villiers (captain) #13 JJ Engelbrecht #14 Bryan Habana #15 Willie le Roux Replacements: #16 Bismarck du Plessis, #17 Trevor Nyakane, #18 Coenie Oosthuizen, #19 Flip van der Merwe, #20 Heinrich Brüssow, #21 Ruan Pienaar, #22 Pat Lambie, #23 Jan Serfontein
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
06 Aug 2013, 21:36
#14
06 Aug 2013, 21:36#14

 Krueger - welcome to the board.

 

Cheetahs fan, huh?

 

You think Rhule is ready for international rugby?

 

KR
KruegerRookie14 posts
06 Aug 2013, 21:43
#15
06 Aug 2013, 21:43#15
My whole group with the injuries: Hookers: - Adriaan Strauss - Bismarck du Plessis - Chiliboy Ralepelle Props: - Tendai Mtawarira - Jannie du Plessis - Coenie Oosthuizen - Trevor Nyakane - Steven Kitshoff Locks: - Eben Etzebeth - Lood de Jager - Flip van der Merwe - Jacques du Plessis Flankers: - Lappies Labuschagne - Deon Fourie - Heirnich Brüssow - Rynhardt Elstadt Number 8: - Duane Vermeulen Scrum-halves: - Piet van Zyl - Ruan Pienaar - Jano Vermaak - Fourie du Preez Fly-halves: - Pat Lambie - Morné Steyn Centres: - Jean de Villiers - JJ Engelbrecht - Jan Serfontein - Robert Ebersohn Wings: - Bryan Habana - Raymond Rhule Fullbacks: - Willie le Roux - Bjorn Basson I'll give a shot to Fourie du Preez in the second game vs Argentina, to see his actual form.
KR
KruegerRookie14 posts
06 Aug 2013, 21:49
#16
06 Aug 2013, 21:49#16
Hey hello, yeah iam a Cheetahs fan. I think Meyer should give an opportunity to Rhule for the first game, he have nothing to loose.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
06 Aug 2013, 22:08
#17
06 Aug 2013, 22:08#17

Very true - the games against the Argies while not to be taken lightly would be the only time to experiment in the RC.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
06 Aug 2013, 22:10
#18
06 Aug 2013, 22:10#18

 BTW Krueger if you are interested in SuperBru or fantasy rugby we have an active contingent here and can give you the necessary info to sign up

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2013, 22:39
#19
06 Aug 2013, 22:39#19
Krueger Welcome to the Forum - we certainly need a red-hot Cheetahs supporter here. I want to support oi-matey suggestion - why don't you join the top league of posters here in fantasy rugby in the Rugby Championships. There are two competitions we normally participate in. The first one is foxsport which is active already - the second one it Test Rugby - which will go active on the 10th. It is easy to join up - go to the following site to register:- therugbychampionshipfantasy.foxsport.com.au You have to fill in the application and they will ask you to select a team. Use the computer generated team for ease of reference - you can change the team afterwards. Then go the right hand side of the website and they will ask you to join leagues. Join the following ones - we are there already:- classic league - 447-3350 head to head - 447-3351 We are looking forward to you joining the real thinkers on this Board.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
07 Aug 2013, 01:40
#20
07 Aug 2013, 01:40#20

I am not pro the retention of Jean as he has been solid nothing more and his best days are done. I'd be moving on for various reasons. Firtsly I believe Serfontein and JJ are our two best centres, they are young and developing as a pair both at provincial and test level. 

 

I would not want to see a year or two of JJ wasted on the wing. But most importantly, neither Serfontein nor Jean will have the same impact as JJ at 13 for they do not possess his pace. 

 

But I do get Moz's angle on wanting our best attackers on the field and without JP, the one wing spot leaves us short and having Jean on the field ahead of say Mvovo or Rhule is a positive. But for me retaining the young centre partnership and not wasting JJ on the wing outweighs having Jean on the field at centre, so my call would always be Serfontein and JJ at centre.

KR
KruegerRookie14 posts
07 Aug 2013, 21:10
#21
07 Aug 2013, 21:10#21
Thanks guys, I will register myself immediately.
— END OF THREAD —

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