FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  So what have we learnt about Meyer

So what have we learnt about Meyer

Started by Saffolk 22 REPLIES1,068 VIEWS· 08 Oct 2013, 02:57
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Oct 2013, 02:57
#1
08 Oct 2013, 02:57#1

He has the ability to move on gameplan wise, which is a relief......thankfully we have moved on from the pathetic kick and chase plan to some extent.



We have had a better year under Meyer but we have not progressed to the point of challenging the AB's for top spot.



The reason for this is that he has not selected our best players and if we are to progress, he has to ditch the deadwood, starting with the worst offender in Morne, followed by Kruger, Kirchner and Steenkamp. There are others to lesser an extent in Pienaar, Vermaak and Alberts.



Thankfully on this front, Meyer has already identified replacements in Taute, Goosen, Steph du Toit and Nkanyane. We will also see the return of Frans Steyn, Hougaard, Malherbe and Arno Botha from injury.



2014 has to be a Bok year without Morne Steyn as our pivot.......we can't play attacking rugby with a player who has as much creativity as a dead fish.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 03:50
#2
08 Oct 2013, 03:50#2
Taute (lost the AB test last year), Goosen (made of string and glue), Nkayane( another guy with an eating disorder) Steyn ( the original eating disorder) Hougaard( mental issues and no position)....geez Dave are you sure?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Oct 2013, 07:11
#3
08 Oct 2013, 07:11#3

Saffex

 

There definitely has been some improvements in development of a game plan and that is to be admitted.   Where there has been problems is that there has been some serious concerns as to player selection - which in the final analysis were problematic.   In some cases the basis for selection was problematic and did not produce the desired results - in fact they caused the Springboks to struggle against teams they should have beaten with ease - and let the team down on Saturday.

 

The problem was that Meyer - who for the first time really  had the opportunity to base his selections on a full season of Super 15 performances - in the main ignored those performances and picked the same people whom he picked last  year for the EOYT - when they already showed that they really are not up to standard.

 

The most problematic was the selection of the following:-

 

Kirchner

 

Kirchner was in most of the tests played last year and showed then serious deficiencies in defence - but also in attacking play.   His passing game always was problematic and poor or even non-existent.  When he carries the ball he tends to run straight at defenders and rarely passed the ball - often enough resulting in killing of attacking moves and even loss of possession.  When he did his passes were inaccurate. 

 

He was always selected on the basis that "he was good in fielding high balls" - but that was at times not in evidence.   He definitely performed badly in Super 15 for the Bulls this year.

 

In general a  player with serious deficiencies and thinking ability insofar as rugby is concerned.

 

Morne Steyn

 

Last year Meyer was forced to drop Steyn from selection because his only real asset was his kicking at goal which deserted him.   The other problem in 2012 was his general kicking game - which also was unacceptable.  

 

The goal kicking game  in Super 15 improved drastically and he converted 80% of his kicks at goal.  The rest of his game was very much the same as last year.   However, there was one issue that really not considered properly.  In which games did most of the 20% misses occurred?.   When analysing those 20% misses - they virtually all happened when the Bulls were under pressure and in fact lost the games.   There was some brittleness in evidence and hose came out when he felt he is under pressure.

 

Insofar as defence is concerned one has to look at his defensive record in all tests played this year.   In the 9 tests he played in this year Morne made 65 tackles - missing 15.  On average his miss percentage was 19%.   All players miss tackles - but the acceptable level must never really be above a 14% limit at the maximum - the top players rarely miss more than 10% of attempted tackles.   Under the circumstances a tackle miss ratio above 14% is totally unacceptable and 5 to 8% too high.

 

All through his career Morne used to have  one serious deficiency - namely he was standing too deep in the pocket and virtually never attacked the gain line himself.   That was seriously detrimental insofar as backline attacking was concerned.   Meyer himself acknowledged this deficiency last week and Morne was forced to stand flatter and passed the ball more frequently.   In general on Saturday - the result was better moves by the Springboks backline.   There was a negative though.  In cases where he should have kicked the ball - ie relieving kicks - he passed the ball,   An example of this was the fiasco where Messam scored his second try after the siren went for the end of the first half.  Instead of Morne making a decent relieving kick he passed the ball - ultimately there was a turnover and the Springboks lost  possession.   

 

In essence Morne remains an average flyhalf - and his replacement remains a matter to be dealt with urgently.

 

Willem Alberts

 

Alberts always had a serious problem - namely his mobility.   As a result of a serious deficiency in the relevant regard he throughout the past year was limited in performances.

 

Mozart base his support on his ability to carry balls strongly and to make so-called "bone crushing" tackles.   However, he always had a number of serious limitations.   His tackling was limited to tackling around the fringes and even there he was easily beaten by faster players (eg in the Samoan tests and m Saturday) with the result that for a loose forward he had a very low tackle rate in most tests.   The main reason for that was his mobility deficiency.   Anything even marginally away from the fringes would be outside his tackling range.

 

His ball carrying ability is also questionable - in open play it is non-existent.   In traffic very little was gained in meterage and he even isolated himself - resulting in ball turnovers or penalties.   In most cases his ball carrying only let to further mauls.

 

Even though he took two line out balls on Saturday - his conributions to line out all recovery is rare.

 

In essence a candidate for replacement by a more mobile player with higher levels of performance in all levels of play.

 

Juandre Kruger  

 

Meyer's reason for selecting him was based on two scenarios - which he outlined once in a statement - namely his organisation of the receipt of balls at kick ins and his role ion calling line outs.   He failed in both respects on Saturday and even in other tests he played in this year.   The main problem remains his lack of grunt and his brittle line out performances.

 

He was together with Kirchner by far the worst performer on Saturday.   Time for a change is essential.

 

There are other players who also showed deficiencies.   Both Jannie du Plessis and Steenkamp are in a declining stage of their careers and they should also be replaced asap.

 

SUMMARY

 

I do not agree with some of the players mentioned by Saffex since I believe that replacements are necessary - but not by selecting some of the players mentioned by him,   There are players who need to confirm their candidacy for selection in Super 15 next year - if they perform adequately they can come into consideration.

 

In essence I believe that there are candidates likely to succeed - namely Goosen, Malherbe and Arno Botha, but the others mentioned by Saffex has a steep hill to climb.  There are other candidates like SP Marais, Stokkies Hanekom, De Allende, Labuschagne, Reinach and Shreuder - who has a very good chance of progressing to higher level.    

 

   

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Oct 2013, 16:01
#4
08 Oct 2013, 16:01#4

Moz, Taute was about as guilty of losing a test as JJ was on Sat......a big fat zero. Meyer is a big Taute fan thankfully and he will definitely feature next year. Taute like JJ, is a class act and a must in the Bok set-up. Taute at 15 would be my call.

 

A half fit Goosen would be a better option than the defensively brittle Morne who offers stuff all on attack and one we cant even rely on with the boot anymore. The sooner Goosen returns the better for Bok rugby. Why Meyer never picked Lambie after a string of average performances by Morne is beyond me - it cost us the RC in the end. Morne was our worst player this year.

 

One only needs to look at Nkanyane to realise he is carrying no more fat than the likes of Steenkamp or Coenie. As the Cheetahs conditioning coach said, it was all a load of bullshit. Nkanyane has been in great form for the Cheetahs and doing a damn fine job of playing tighthead, adding versatility to his CV. This lad ahead of useless fat Steenkamp anyday........the selection does not get easier than that.

 

Funny you were a big fan of Frans Steyns form before his injury, now all of a sudden he has an eating disorder - get real Moz.

 

Hougaard was in good form at 9 before his injury, no issue with head or position. He is our best choice at 9 given du Preez is hardly available and lets face it, all he provided was a good service. We can't retain Pienaar as its been years since he put in a merit performance.

 

If we want to beat the Kiwi's...........Morne, Kirchner, Kruger and Steenkamp have to go as they are liabilities and not up to test rugby. Goosen is a shoe in at 10 and Steph du Toit at 5........we have Taute or Frans for 15 and Nkanyane, Kitshoff or Marcel v/d Merwe as options ahead of useless Steenkamp. A fit Hougaard after a full S15 will be just what we need at 9.

 

We have nothing to worry about, the weak links are covered. Lets just hope Meyer has the balls to implement the changes.....we know Goosen and Steph du Toit are sure bets and they will be covering our two biggest Bok liabilities in Morne and Kruger

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Oct 2013, 16:17
#5
08 Oct 2013, 16:17#5
 "One only needs to look at Nkanyane to realise he is carrying no more fat than the likes of Steenkamp or Coenie. As the Cheetahs conditioning coach said, it was all a load of bullshit."







CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Oct 2013, 17:13
#6
08 Oct 2013, 17:13#6

Saffex

 

Let me put it clearly  I am not a Taute hater like Moxart.   I think that Taute had a raw deal being played at center and that he is more suited to full back.   He as injured badly this year and because of the Jantjies problem the Stormers had - he had very little game time this year.   The Stormers were forced to play a reliable kicker at goal - so they were forced to play Pietersen at full back - giving Taute virtually no playing time.

 

I think that Taute will be back with a vengeance at full back next year and he will be able in Super 15 to show whether he can perform on a level where his selection could be justified.

 

Insofar as Francois Steyn is concerned  I do believe there is a problem.   His mobility and general skill set is really not sufficient to play him at 12 - so the question will remain where he is to play for the Sharks next year in Super 15.   With Marais around it is unlikely that he would get much playing time at full back.  At center I believe that Whitehead will remain their number 1 choice at 12 with Jordaan at 13.   That leaves very little space for utilization of Francois Steyn next year - other than to be on the bench.   All will depend though on him getting his weight under control and upping his mobility.   The question remains - what will White do in his case?   He was White's choice to move to center - because Jean de Villiers was injured - will he consider Steyn at 12 or go another way?   Be it as it may - I cannot see how Steyn can be in contention unless he improves his performances in Super 15 next year drastically. 

 

The key remains to my mind performances in Super 15 and obviously also in the tests series played.   We have a serious anomaly in that situation if you tke the following example into consideration.    Five of the top rated loosies in Super 15 this year - was South African - yet none of them were selected by Meyer for the squad.   He preferred Louw - where I do not fault him at all - and in Vermeulen - who in the absence of Arno Botha - was the only choice.   However, he played Alberts - who had only 3 Super 15 games, but under-performed in all three he played in.   Selections like those are the death of SA Rugby - we cannot have under-performers and expect miracles.  I think that if we had a more mobile and more balanced loosie with better defence credentials  - there would have been very little chance for Messam  scoring his second try just after the siren went and also of Read not been tackled and the consequential try of Ben Smith be averted.   In the case of the second example Alberts was completely outpaced by Read.   In the case of the first Messam try there were deficiencies by Alberts as well and that try could also have been averted if he went for the ball after the Aaron Smith tackle and not clumsily fell over his own feet.         

 

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 17:25
#7
08 Oct 2013, 17:25#7

 

   " However, he played Alberts - who had only 3 Super 15 games, but under-performed in all three he played in.   Selections like those are the death of SA Rugby - we cannot have under-performers and expect miracles.  I think that if we had a more mobile and more balanced loosie with better defence credentials  - there would have been very little chance for Messam  scoring his second try just after the siren went and also of Read not been tackled and the consequential try of Ben Smith be averted." 


 

 No if JJ hadn't isolated himself on his 22, and got turned, Messam wouldn't have scored his try. But how much of a liar are you OOM? At that point your unbalanced trio never existed....Alberts was off and Kolisi was on. Focus on Kolisi and you will see him trotting back while the ABs were breaking up the left touchline. For you the truth is just another reality.

 


 

Correct your error.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Oct 2013, 17:58
#8
08 Oct 2013, 17:58#8

 Listen - Imbecile

 

I dealt with issues based on facts.  Where was the follow-up  in the Engelbrecht case - nowhere.   Players don't get isolated if there is proper follow-up by fellow players.  

 

The AB loosies did follow up properly in the case of attacking backline play and a player being tackled - ours was nowhere is sight.   I did not refer anywhere to Alberts insofar as the Engelbrecht saga was concerned - you desperate old liar.   I was dealing with all the loosies in general in that case.   

 

The only time I did mention Albert specifically was in the case of Messam's first try and the Ben Smith try - in both cases he was directly or largely to blame - end of story.

 

You called me a moron and a liar - so I have the full right to retaliate in kind.       

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:22
#9
08 Oct 2013, 18:22#9
@ceradyne,

gunthro actually looks in real good nick in that photo, how old is that photo??? just curious is all.

@mozter,
morne gets the ball and passes out wide to JDV.

jj cuts inside of JDV and JDV passes it inside too jj who now has no option but to take the ball into contact.

i agree with u 100% that the Boks should of just kicked the ball out, but morne who was the first ball reciver and JDV were to blame for that, not jj.
both morne and JDV are senior players and should have taken the responsibility themselves to clear the ball.

if Bok DNA wasnt so intertwined with 10 man rugby, there would have been alot more smarts with some of their option taking, smarts that moren and JDV were clearly lacking.

but if meyer continues to play this style of rugby (big if) then the Boks attacking sense will improve dramatically.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:24
#10
08 Oct 2013, 18:24#10

 Rubbish OOM I quote you again

 


 

"I think that if we had a more mobile and more balanced loosie with better defence credentials  - there would have been very little chance for Messam  scoring his second try just after the siren went "

 


 

 

You are clearly referring to the Alberts, Vermeulen, Louw combination in regard to the TRY AFTER THE SIREN SOUNDED........but Alberts was not on the park.

 


 

Stop wriggling and respond like a man.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:28
#11
08 Oct 2013, 18:28#11
Sasu the last thing JJ could do was allow the ABs to turn him. He could have got a kick away, he could have beaten the tackle, he could have stood up in the tackle, he could have delayed placing the ball, he could have placed it further back......lots of o ptions. What he couldn't do was get himself tackled and turned.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:39
#12
08 Oct 2013, 18:39#12
Rubbish Moz, JJ made a great break running off Jean who was looking to attack, he beat a defender and was then tackled with du Preez and Kolisi on his shoulder.......they did not do their job of clearing Read out  
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:41
#13
08 Oct 2013, 18:41#13
@mozter,

watch it again, if kicking the ball out was the smart thing to do, then JDV and morne are the ones to blame, i mean both were in a far better position to kick the ball then jj was.

as soon as jj touched the ball he had cruden on him who he avoided but also had nonu bearing down on him, kicking the ball away in that situation was a no go cos of all the factors mainyl All Black factors around jj.
the last time i checked jj dosent have spidermans spider senses, so jj took the correct option no thanks to JDV which was hit the ball up and trust that his teammates would get there in time to back secure that ruck.

a clearing kick was the right call, but i have no idea why u blame jj for being put in that ridiculous situation from JDV, when both moren and JDV had all the time in the world to clear the ball.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 18:43
#14
08 Oct 2013, 18:43#14
I repeat....he could do anything except get turned. So now it's Jean's fault, it's Kolisi's fault, Fourie's fault....anybody but the guy who last had the ball before the AB try. You went to Grey right Dave?
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
08 Oct 2013, 19:12
#15
08 Oct 2013, 19:12#15
@mozter,

its not jjs fault that morne and JDV didnt know what to do in that situation, so instead they give it to jj who had zero option but to run the ball.

its not jjs fault either he trusted his teammates to be there when he was tackled either, the alternative was to give away a penalty and hindsight is something that were not blessed with except when ur an All Blacks fan predicting an All Black test match, :oP)

the reality is the attacking nous required to play the expansive game is missing from Bok rugby, and with morne and JDV playing most of their career in the loving arms of Boks 10 man rugby, its hardly surprising to see them take the wrong option, especially JDV who took wrong option after wrong option in ellis park.

Boks will get there one day though, but they need to keep playing that way more consistently, time will tell if that was only a one of thing which i cant shake the feeling that it is.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Oct 2013, 19:30
#16
08 Oct 2013, 19:30#16
 So you think Jean made him turn inside, or somehow he had to turn insi de ....he didn't make that decision by himself?
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Oct 2013, 21:02
#17
08 Oct 2013, 21:02#17
 @Sasuke, it was obviously taken after he joined Toulouse in 2011. This one was in Nov 2012.



It is difficult to judge from picture just how much body fat one carries. What makes me believe that Nyakane is fat, is his legs. If you look  at all three players legs, it is clear that Nyakane has a hell of a lot of fat around his legs. Your view?
OM
Owen MeanyRookie57 posts
08 Oct 2013, 21:24
#18
08 Oct 2013, 21:24#18
 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Oct 2013, 21:30
#19
08 Oct 2013, 21:30#19
 Interesting that Owen should post a picture of Ollie Le Roux. I found two full length pictures of him. Have a look at his legs and compare that to Nyakane's fat legs.




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Oct 2013, 22:37
#20
08 Oct 2013, 22:37#20

Mozart

 

Caught out as per normal - now the juggling act commence in earnest - I was referring to the loosie combination - so it must be to Alberts as well as you now discovered.   That while Alberts was not on the field of play, but Kolisi was - so at that stage Kolisi was in the combination.  Kolisi is definitely more speedy - but he is ineffective in breakdown play and also not really a great tackler and a cover for players being tackled.  In the whole time Kolisi was on the field of play on Saturday he made opnly 3 tackles.  One was a try saving one - but where was he the rest of the game?   From a defensive perspective  nowhere.   He is also a weak Meyer loosie selection.

 

You assume things I said and then go on the rampage.   If you are honest and deals with issue stated and counteract them - then it would not be necessary to revert to personal insults and lies and false deductions.    

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Oct 2013, 22:54
#21
08 Oct 2013, 22:54#21

Saffex

 

Mozart is entirely predictable - if Engelbrecht is involved in anything - blame him for being at fault - not the other players that put him in the position he is in at the time.

 

He will always try and find reasons to exonerate Morne - and blame anybody else.   In this case Morne should have made a relieving kick - he did not and the ball ended up with Engebrecht and a number of AB defenders.

 

When Engelbrecht was tackled - he should not have allowed the AB's to turn him around and allow them to recover the ball in the tackle situation.   He should rather have risked a professional foul and a yellow card than did what he did.   Can you imagine the howling if he did the professional foul and he got carded - Mozart would have been screaming with pleasure - if that was the case.   We would never have heard the end of that one.

 

The problem started with an ill-judged pass by Morne instead of a relieving kick - and De Villiers also not kicking the ball out.   My contention  is that nobody was on the Engelbrecht's shoulder to help in ball protection and recovery when tackled.   In the AB's case you would find that other backline players and loosies perform this function often enough - in the Springboks case - our loosies are under such circumstances nowhere in sight.

 

However, the first players to blame will always be the players he is prejudiced against when they get selected.   Have you seen even a word of criticism for Morne in this case or in the case of his poor defensive play throughout the game on the part of Mozart?  Nothing - there was no problem in Morne's case - according to Mozart none at all.   What a joke.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Oct 2013, 00:46
#22
09 Oct 2013, 00:46#22

Mike if you continue to lie pretty soon I am going to have to ignore you totally.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2013, 01:33
#23
09 Oct 2013, 01:33#23

 Mozart

 

So ignore me if you please - but I will keep on exposing you - so it won't help.  Just one question - I am curious - where did I lie in my latest posting?   Just point it out to me, please.

— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news