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South African Rugby

Started by Papamoa19 REPLIES309 VIEWS· 24 Jul 2014, 16:55
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PA
PapamoaClub Pro683 posts
24 Jul 2014, 16:55
#1
24 Jul 2014, 16:55#1

For some time now, South African teams at both national and Super Rugby level have been trying to rekindle the glory years of domination between 2007 and 2010 when Heyneke Meyer’s Bulls – playing a brand of rugby not wholly dissimilar to White’s Boks – and John Smit’s national team of 2009 were also winning silverware.

Yet, in many ways, SA has been going backwards ever since. Sharks fans will look at the Super Rugby table and tell me I’m crazy, but anyone who has watched South African derbies from a neutral perspective in recent years – and the last two weekends of Super Rugby are prime examples – will tell you that there is either a prevalent rugby mentality that suffocates positive endeavour or there is a serious lack of skills.

I would say it’s a little bit of both, and they feed each other, in a vicious circle. The less a gameplan requires handling skills, the less those skills are developed. And as skill levels drop, so playing ‘heads-up’ rugby becomes less of an option. Coaches at schools imitate teams at the top. Round and round we go in a downward spiral.

At the centre of the circle you’ll find South Africa’s obsession with beating the All Blacks and winning the World Cup. Beyond those two things, as far as rugby is concerned, not much else really matters.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Jul 2014, 18:05
#2
24 Jul 2014, 18:05#2
 "Yet, in many ways, SA has been going backwards ever since. Sharks fans will look at the Super Rugby table and tell me I’m crazy, but anyone who has watched South African derbies from a neutral perspective in recent years – and the last two weekends of Super Rugby are prime examples – will tell you that there is either a prevalent rugby mentality that suffocates positive endeavour or there is a serious lack of skills.".

Correct . That is why South Africa is down in 157th in the world rankings.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
24 Jul 2014, 18:15
#3
24 Jul 2014, 18:15#3
South Africa has the best pack in the world, the outside backs are as good as any team. (Habana, Willie Leroux )
However I would agree that the inside backs handling skills and creativity is poor. 
If this area was anywhere near the other two, it would not be unreasonable to say that the Boks would rank number 1 in the world.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Jul 2014, 20:36
#4
24 Jul 2014, 20:36#4
 Yes just: 
  1. stop the flow overseas, 
  2. sort  out our provincial structures, 
  3. introduce central contracting, 
  4. adopt the merit principle unreservedly and 
  5. get in unbiased refs, 

and we will be number 1 with out changeing any other thing. That said better skills in the backline would also help.
The hardest to do is 1. Next hardest is 4. The rest takes a bit of gumption and will power.
Unfortunately little is likely to happen re my list so we will be beating the wee abs with one hand tied behind our back so to speak. Which of course we can and will do.


GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
24 Jul 2014, 20:42
#5
24 Jul 2014, 20:42#5
 Nonsense. The Bulls under Meyer played differently to the Sharks or the Boks of 2009. The Boks of 2009 had a couple of plans only:

1.Have 6, 7, 8 run off of 9.
2.12 takes to line with 11 as cleaner over the top.
3.6 attacks breakdown

That was it. No team in the history of South African rugby HAS EVER played like Peter's Boks did in 2009 to 2011 (before Nienaber worked with them). Utter nonsense. And you know why the blip happened? Because Dick Mire and Snorkle (quota and stupid who stabbed Campese in the back) took charge with a stupid dream of playing rugby Jones said must be played only on the moon. Yes they wrecked the Boks. And in that time the Bulls were successful playing ATTACKING rugby! But of course the Bulls are in rebuilding phase as they lost Victor, Rossow, Bakkies, Du Preez, Gurthro, Chiliboy, Gary Botha, Van Den Heever, Kirchner, Morné, Potgieter and a whole host of other players in successive seasons.

The Sharks have personnel issues. Frans is the best 10 and 12 in the team and which player you have next to him from either position the Sharks are not going to function properly. They need a descent 10. It's not a problem of gameplans or skills. My God this journo is such an idiot.

Sharkbok, the inside backs are used poorly. Running structures, Running structures, Running structures!!!!! If you want to play like New Zealand on attack then damn well copy what they are actually doing not some shitty feel good bullshit.Maybe if we tought our players to attack shoulders instead of bodies, to draw and pass or to support the ball carrier, maybe then things would be better! So many tries are lost because of a simple draw and pass. Too lateral and coming into the line slowly instead of at pace. These are the real problem areas. New Zealanders and this journo don't know squat about Bok rugby, never have and never will.

But hey, lets play new age feel good rugby, lets fling it around playing carnival garbage rugby and at the end of the day get a pat on the back and say "dankie baas"
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Jul 2014, 20:51
#6
24 Jul 2014, 20:51#6
 Our main problem for years now - we have had dud flyhalfs - Morne Steyn and Francois Steyn are two of those.  You cannot have robots who must be told in advance exactly what they must do every time thy get the ball at flyhalfs.   
That neutralizes the backline completely and that is where our problems started all along.   Matter of fact Fransie Steyn is a major saboteur of backline play since he lacks ball sense and skills.    
CR
Crusaders#1Club Pro179 posts
25 Jul 2014, 08:42
#7
25 Jul 2014, 08:42#7

as a kiwi I see your biggest problem is the exodus of top players leaving overseas...soon it wiil be all your under 20,s leaving as well...then your schoolboys... if not already !!!if your top players are not playing in SA how can the rest of  them play to that top level?keep the best in SA it can only strengthen an improve your lesser players....

don't let them go overseas if they want a bok jersey.........

PA
PapamoaClub Pro683 posts
25 Jul 2014, 10:36
#8
25 Jul 2014, 10:36#8
 They come and go. SBW is back Kaino is back for the next RWC bring it on!!!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jul 2014, 12:46
#9
25 Jul 2014, 12:46#9
 A lot hs been said about this issue - but here we have comments of Carlos Spencer - who has a lot to lose and nothing much to gain from being forthright about the issue:-
"Eastern Province Kings coach Carlos Spencer has criticised South African rugby's conservative style of play and wants his side to implement an expansive game-plan in the Currie Cup.
The former All Blacks fly-half said while South Africa had a plethora of rugby talent, the players were often prevented from expressing themselves.

"There is definitely talent in this country, they just need to have the freedom and the abilities to show it," said Spencer.

"The thing that frustrates me at the moment living here is to see these players not having the freedom and licence to express themselves.

"Hopefully I can give it to the players, I definitely know I can, they just need to make the most of it."

Spencer hopes to imprint his own flamboyant style from his playing days on the Port Elizabeth-based side, who are returning to the top tier of the South African domestic game.

"I want to give the players licence and the freedom to express themselves," he added.

"At the same time it is important to have structure, but it is not to put a strangle on them and say they must do this for 75 or 79 minutes."

Spencer said while it would be foolish to completely ignore structured rugby, the side would reflect what he had learned from other coaches and his own style as a player.

"It is a bit of a merger of about everything, the way I was as a player and the coaches I've been involved with as a player," he explained.

"At the same time I've been here [in South Africa] for the last four years, so there might be a little bit of South African influence."

Spencer, who was appointed head coach in February, said he had four months to prepare his charges for the pressures of top-flight rugby.

"We've had a good opportunity and window, I suppose, where I was able to take 15 or 16 players out of the Vodacom Cup where I spent time with those players to work on their strength and conditioning," he said.

"The four months for them was relatively hard but it is a window we made good use of, and to get that kind of window these days with the amount of rugby [being played] is pretty good."

Spencer would not make predictions on his side's prospects in this year's competition, but instead said he had a longer-term goal in mind.

He viewed his main responsibility to lift the team to Super Rugby standards before their reintroduction to that competition in 2016.

"It is great for the province and the players being back in the Currie Cup," he said.

"You can see a future for the youngsters coming through.

"Our main focus, to be honest, is probably 2016 when we get back into Super Rugby.

"If you look that far ahead, we don't want to go into that competition just as being just another number, we want to be competitive."

The Kings mentor said he was nevertheless well aware of the challenge his side would face in the Currie Cup.

Although he had confidence in their preparations in the build-up to the start of the competition, their biggest challenge would be to adjust to the increased intensity and tempo at that level.

"In terms of where we are, I am reasonably happy but I know and understand that once Currie Cup comes it will be a lot more difficult and the challenge will be even bigger," he said.

"As a province, coach and players we understand that and it is one we are looking forward to.

"The guys are definitely ready physically and mentally, so we just have to go out there and show what we've got and hit the pitch running."

The Kings will start their Currie Cup campaign against last year's losing finalists Western Province in Port Elizabeth on August 8."
I tend to agree - there are negative tendencies in SA Rugby and it developed over years since the early 1980's.  The idea that there are 10 players on the field of play and the rest are there to make up the team sheet and is there to defend only - has been the bane of SA Rugby life over the past two decades.    
Meyer has shown signs that he wants to move away from that approach and those are welcome.  However, he is impeded by backline players lacking ball skills and ability to read games and play accordingly.   We constantly have flyhalfs who are robotic and incapable of playing a varied game - and any attempt to point out that there is a problem is attacked with vehemence and spite by many on this site who believe in the traditional Bulls rugby ap proach.      
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jul 2014, 14:07
#10
25 Jul 2014, 14:07#10
 Good luck with your expansive gameplan, Carlos. Bear in mind that it has been tried before:

In July 2008, this was what Jean de Villiers had to say:

LAST year's World Cup final may not have been such a snorefest if Peter de Villiers was then coaching the Springboks says Jean de Villiers.

South Africa, then coached by Jake White, beat England 15-6 in Paris last October in a tedious kicking contest and no tries between two sides playing negative rugby.

But second-five Jean de Villiers said if the Springboks get in that situation again under Peter de Villiers (no relation) they'll play exciting rugby.

"Peter is definitely going for a more expansive game," Jean de Villiers told Sunday News.

"Maybe next time around if we do get the opportunity again, there might be some tries and not just penalty kicks.

"At the end of the day you have to do what you need to do to win a game."

De Villiers is widely regarded as the best second-five in the world but missed virtually all of the World Cup, picking up an arm injury 44 minutes into the Springboks' first game of the tournament, against Samoa.

Four tests into Peter de Villiers' reign as Springboks coach, Jean has already noticed marked differences between the two.

"They're two totally different individuals," he said. "Peter is really working hard to get a more expansive game going with the team.

"He's big on player involvement and that's something I enjoy, to get the feeling of the players having an input and with that mix creating something strong within the team. 


http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-news/sport/rugby/530420/De-Villiers-delivers


How did that turn out? This is how it turned out:


South Africa have slipped to third place in the International Rugby Board (IRB) rankings after their fourth defeat in five Tri-Nations matches on Saturday, when they lost to Australia in Durban.

This is the Springboks’ lowest position since they took number-one slot after the World Cup.

The slide follows the Boks’ third successive loss, and their second on home soil for the first time in a Tri-Nations season.

Australia, in a poor third place when the season started, have moved into second place.

Another loss to Australia this weekend would see the Boks drop further in points in the rankings, but they would still go into their November tour to the United Kingdom in third place.


http://mg.co.za/article/2008-08-26-boks-slip-to-third-in-world-rankings


Needless to say that ou Twakkies soon discarded his "expansive gameplan" and subsequently won the TN in the next year.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:14
#11
25 Jul 2014, 16:14#11
 Doffies
You cannot play an expansive game with inside backs deficient of ball skills and sense. An expansive game with a flyhalf like Morne Steyn is unthinkable.   Another dead letter for an expansive game is Francois Steyn.  With those 2 in the backline zero is going to happen insofar as constructive backline usage/play  is concerned.
The problem with De Villiers was - he was not really the coach who ran the team - that was left over to the senior players whom all went down the drain from about 2010.  That is why by 2012 the rugby was in such a mess.   
Meyer's initial reaction was to select players he was familiar with and he begged Matfield and thereafter Du Preez to make themselves available as Springbok captain.   Both declined.  He then went on to select a squad that was completely based on Blue Bulls and Sharks players.   None of the players were known to be constructive backline players - bar Habana and Pietersen on the wing and De Villers at outside center.   That killed off any potential expansive or varied play and we suffered through 2012  like it was unbelievable.   Then came alonmg 2013 and Meyer was hard hit - one of his favourite layers - after buggering up all season - was injured and Kirchner was perforce to be replaced.   
Meyer was forced to select Le Roux at full back and the latter broke the ice and started to play constructive rugby.   Francois Steyn was injured and the backline saboteur was not available.   Moving De Villiers to inside center and with four creative players there were signs of improved backline play - the only real hindrance left  was  Morne Steyn.  problem is that as long as the Stade Francais Reject is in that backline - proper functioning of the backline will always be impeded/impossible.   
The problem remains deficient or rather absent skill as to reading of games and natural decision making meant that there is still a major deficiency.  The years of playing dud rugby also costed the Springboks dearly - there ball skills and strategy play went out of the window.  Players like the Steyns do not know when to pass and when to kick and in the event of their passing game it is often ill-times and sometimes inaccurate as well.   
The above could be helped along by playing De Allende at 13 - he has ball sense and skills and times his passes exceptionally well.        Lets hope we get a proper flyhalf - not a donkey robot -  and De Allende is brought in   Then we will really have a functional backline at last .          
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jul 2014, 16:37
#12
25 Jul 2014, 16:37#12
" You cannot play an expansive game with inside backs deficient of ball skills and sense. An expansive game with a flyhalf like Morne Steyn is unthinkable.   Another dead letter for an expansive game is Francois Steyn.  With those 2 in the backline zero is going to happen insofar as constructive backline usage/play  is concerned."

Ai ai ai ai. First of all. Carlos is not going to have either of the Steyns in his team playing the "expansive gameplan". Secondly and most importantly, Neither of the Steyns were involved when PDV tried his "expansive gameplan" and failed miserably.


"The problem with De Villiers was - he was not really the coach who ran the team - that was left over to the senior players whom all went down the drain from about 2010.  That is why by 2012 the rugby was in such a mess."

Strange that one of those senior players and future Bok captain credited PDV for the expansive gameplan idea. That is after all what is under discussion. The 2008 Expansive Gameplan model and Carlos' idea of implementing something similar.

Your next issue is your usual attack on HM, who is not even involved in the "expansive gameplan" issue.

You are so focussed on finding a way to get to the throats of the two Steyns and HM that you completely lost track of what was under discussion. It is actually very strange that you haven't managed to drag Willem Alberts in as well.



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2014, 19:28
#13
25 Jul 2014, 19:28#13
Spot on call there Pap with that article......you will see that many of the supporters on here think our methods are correct, that's how stupid they are and obviously programmed to always come second in their lives  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jul 2014, 19:36
#14
25 Jul 2014, 19:36#14
 Ceradunce
The civil designation for you.   
"You are so focussed on finding a way to get to the throats of the two Steyns and HM that you completely lost track of what was under discussion.
No wonder I call you Doffies.  You apparently still does not realize that the flyhalf is the pivot that organizes backline play.   That being the case one has to look at what the present top flyhalfs produces.   It is a fact that whomsoever coach the Steyn's will never be able to teach those too anything about how flyhalf should play rugby.  Fact is that is th reason why Morne is on the bench when other flyhalfs like Plisson is available.  He is uncoachable. 
"Strange that one of those senior players and future Bok captain credited PDV for the expansive gameplan idea. That is after all what is under discussion. The 2008 Expansive Gameplan model and Carlos' idea of implementing something similar. "
The idea of De Villiers were correct - but with the players he was saddled with and the fact that Matfield and Smit was in  a tussle all the time of who should be the captain and who should run the show - there was no way that anything could be implemented. Your comments were that something like De Villiers envisaged was implemented is a real joke.    It never ever was and never could be with the senior players running the show.  The outcome was obvious - it killed any initiatives that there may have been in that regard.  
   


GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
25 Jul 2014, 20:42
#15
25 Jul 2014, 20:42#15
 "Spot on call there Pap with that article......you will see that many of the supporters on here think our methods are correct, that's how stupid they are and obviously programmed to always come second in their lives"

No, I am saying that the stupid doff mffie rugby that fans keep calling for DOESNT WORK and nobody in NZ plays like that!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jul 2014, 00:07
#16
26 Jul 2014, 00:07#16
 Gonso
The New Zealanders play a game where options are exercised and implemented to the best advantage of their team.   We should not have a game that is so restricted that the opponents knows exactly what to expect. 
The game played by SA does not allow for any variables and when pople suggested that there are improvements that needs to be made - the members on this site goes ballistic and claims that it is all wrong.  That is the problem - but the greater problem is that we have dolts at flyhalf and then expect miracles.     
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
26 Jul 2014, 00:54
#17
26 Jul 2014, 00:54#17
 Bozo learn to speak English and them come back and try again
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jul 2014, 01:39
#18
26 Jul 2014, 01:39#18
 "The idea of De Villiers were correct - but with the players he was saddled with and the fact that Matfield and Smit was in  a tussle all the time of who should be the captain and who should run the show - there was no way that anything could be implemented. Your comments were that something like De Villiers envisaged was implemented is a real joke.    It never ever was and never could be with the senior players running the show.  The outcome was obvious - it killed any initiatives that there may have been in that regard." 

That is the biggest load of bullshit that you have come up with since you decided that Morne Steyn was on his way to Paris St Germaine. It is not even worth commenting on any of the bullshit that you have posted.


EDIT:

No. Fuck that. I will respond.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2032078/John-Smit-Victor-Matfield-aim-retire-champions.html

Smit and Matfield forged their relationship as young squad members at the 2003 tournament in Australia, when South Africa's buildup under former coach Rudolf Straeuli was undermined by the controversial pre-tournament boot camp, 'Kamp Staaldraad.'

Since then, they've formed the best thrower-jumper lineout combination in the world, become the most capped Boks ever in their positions and created a hugely experienced

partnership that has won a World Cup and two Tri-Nations. South Africa counts on them lead it to an unprecedented third world title.


Victor and I, it's crazy. We've played a huge amount of tests together.' Smit said. 'We've seen each other get married, have kids. We've been through Staaldraads together, we've won World Cups and Tri-Nations, we've lost Tri-Nations. We've had our moments up and down and we've always had each other.

'For me, it's just a special relationship. A lot of people always take Victor for granted. He's a phenomenal player and a great leader. He's been a pillar of strength for me. I've relied on him heavily throughout my time as captain and he's stepped up and provided.'

Matfield added: 'Myself and John are big mates. We've been playing together for quite some time now. It's about knowing each other's body language, knowing what's coming and that always helps. It's fantastic what the two of us have.'

In the past two years, however, their experience has been sorely tested.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2032078/John-Smit-Victor-Matfield-aim-retire-champions.html#ixzz38WH8WI4G
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Smit: Matfield was greatest ever Bok

Smit, who will continue his career with Saracens in the Aviva Premiership, stepped down as Springboks skipper after seven years in the role with a total of 111 caps to his name. While Matfield, 34, stepped into retirement having played in 110 tests for his country.

"I could sit here for an hour speaking about the value and contribution he has made to South Africa," Smit said of Matfield following South Africa's exit from the World Cup. "Again, colossal in the lineouts, leadership sublime, always making sure the right calls are made, his composure.

"I think the most valuable thing about Victor is how he makes the players around him feel. When he's picked in the side, there's a calmness about him, a composure that he possesses, and hopefully the youngsters will have learned from that and will have taken it forward.

"He's a huge player. In my opinion, the greatest Springbok that's ever been."


Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/151883.html#7FxQ6My8gmBTk2B4.99

I think John Smit has more acumen under the nail of his left little finger than you will ever have, so piss off and go spread your lies elsewhere.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jul 2014, 07:48
#19
26 Jul 2014, 07:48#19
 Dof Doos
I cannot remember when - but a one stage Matfield was sent back to SA from New Zealand because he was so-called "injured" and the next Saturday he turned out for the Bulls.  A player is not sent back if there was not another reason - and it was all over the media that Matfield was actively undermining Smit and he was sent back for that reason and not the so-called injury.
However, that never was the argument - it was the fact that you came up with the bullshiot story about the playing style promoted by De Villiers and then claimed it did not work out  while he had virtually no control over the senior players - who covered for their own position in the team and in fact was the final arbiter who was to be selected and how the game was to be played.
With players like the Stade Francais Reject being in the team in 2010 and 2011 - and with Francois Steyn at inside center - how the hell do you think a different playing style would work?   Jean may have said differently in 2008 - but there was no hope that it could work out.  
 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jul 2014, 12:36
#20
26 Jul 2014, 12:36#20
 Bullshit. It had nothing to do with Smit and all about his relationship with Jake White. Read White's book. John Smit's as well.

Who said he had no control over the seniors. Oh yes, the media again. Why did they come to that conclusion? Because of remarks by the likes of JDV, etc that:
"He's big on player involvement and that's something I enjoy, to get the feeling of the players having an input and with that mix creating something strong within the team."

Once again. Read John Smit's book. What is a well known is that PDV did say that he was going to play "expansive" and that he did try it. The players even bought into it. See JDV's remarks above and once again, read John Smit's book. What is also well known is that the game-plan flopped badly and that he had to revert back to what was known.

Then, as usual, you have to find a way to bring in Morne Steyn who was not involved in the "expansive game-plan" time. During that time we were on the road to nowhere. After he dropped the idea and after Morne Steyn got involved, did we win the B & IL tour and the TN. Once again, you have to forget about dragging in and blaming MS for anything prior to 2009.
— END OF THREAD —

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