Spot your centre

One centre is Adi Jacobs in the 08 TN....the other Fury in the 09 TN.

Centre A made 132 metres from 15 runs....and he made 20 out of 23 tackles....missing 3. He scored two tries

Centre B made 183 metres from 28 runs...and he made 41 out of 44 tackles....missing 3. He scored three tries.

Can anybody (especially Dave and Aristo) spot which centre is which.

Just to make things easy centre B leads in number of runs, total metres gained, tries, number of tackles and tackle percentage.

Centre A leads in metres per carry.

Centre A benefited from a brief period where Jean was actually making breaks thus running unopposed in most instances. Centre A was dragged around on defence and one of those tries was at a poorly defended ruck on the Aussie tryline.

Centre B played in a much more narrow backline that resulted in the opposition defence condensing and stacking tacklers on the ball carrier. Centre B made his tackles with far more authority but was unfortunately bereft of position.

Juzz keepin it real dawg ;)
 

No sadly that dawg wont hunt. Jean made 5 breaks in 08 versus 4 in 09. But he made 7 offloads in 09 versus 6 in 08. The offload is what centre A benefited from, but marginally I will say. It was pretty much even Steven.

So we have one centre massively outproducing the other while the partnering centre Jean provided the same service. Seems you have made my point.

But it did please my sense of irony that you were forced to use the maligned Jean to try (and fail) to refute my point.

Mozart - being factual does not enhance your popularity on the Board - especially not with some of the posters - who do not like facts and based their arguments on fiction - with a preference for some players.  

I must say I never was a great jacobs fan - but that he did play some very decent games.   In essence I believe that Jacobs was from a speed perspective faster than Fourie and thus capable of making longer runs before being tackled.  

When I first saw Jacobs I thought he was good on attack - but hopeless in defence.   So your info shows a different Jacobs on that point.

Mike I was dead against the selection of Jacobs in 2008, for exactly the reason you mention. I thought he would be defensively exposed. But as the TN evolved, I realized Adi was making all his tackles. Critics claim he never stopped players dead....but I saw no evidence of this. He tackled low and decisively....exactly what you want in a 13. When moved to 12 in subsequent tests, the ability to stop big guys without an offload was a factor....not at 13.

This form also didn't last long, although I think Adi was probably completely demoralized by the vicious vitriol directed at him for keeping the cart horse Fury out the Bok team. These guys finally got their way and of   course Fury was player A in the 2009 TN. He did nothing of note, avoided tackles and never made a decent backline break. His whole 2009 season revolved around the try against the Lions when he bumped off O Gara, a notedly poor tackler, who was concussed at the time.

Adi was another case of bias among our fans. Not a great Springbok, but certainly deserving of that honour. When he found the form that put him in many TN Team of the Tournament selections for 2008.....fans just couldn't forgive him for taking Fury's place. It was a sad chapter in our rugby.

How stupid of the Japs to offer Jaque R22 million for 2 years work given how uselss he is. Was this the highest amount ever paid for a player?

Where are you okes buying your dagga, cos it must be some gooooood sheeeet. Fourie is a better player hands down. Maybe slightly slower, but MUCH stronger, a MUCH better defender, and above all a MUCH more consistant player. Jacobs had moments where he was sublime, but they werenot nearly frequent enough. Also, Fourie was a better finisher. Nope, I am sorry not in the same league.

 The bok team in the last 6 years has been mainly selected on sentiment and not form. That old addadge of experience over form. AD, played some decent rugby at times but he had a reputation as a week defender that often shot out of the line which probably counted against him. 

But what would be interesting between these two tackle stats would be where on the field did they miss their tackles and what was the result of these miss tackles. ie own 22, clean break, try? 

John Smit slipped a tackle on the half way line in the dying seconds in seweto that ended up being a try under the sticks and the all blacks winning the game.  

Stats doesn't count for much if you don't have the context. 

But I do believe coaches and fans get caught up with sentiment. Besides, how can replace a world cup hero?

You can make up your own minds on their respective careers. Check out Fury's stats for the RWC for example....they were poor. And he blew not one, not two, but three try scoring chances in our loss to Oz.

This is a narrow analysis....Adi's 2008 vs Fury's 2009 TN. Stats can be misleading but a season of stats is usually a fairly good indicator of the general direction.

I don't think Adi was a great centre, but nobody claims he is. Neither was Fury and many, himself included, claim he is. That's the point.

Moz Fourie was a great centre, his test try scoring strike rate speaks volumes. Adi was an insult of a Bok centre, he should not have won a single cap - utterly useless

Fury's much vaunted strike rate was padded with easy tries against lesser nations. He scored about two noted test tries. His TN strike rate was below Marius Joubert and he never scored as many in 2009 as Adi scored in his one TN season in 2008.

You will find you are wrong, we have been over this before, would be easy enough to bring up his tries but its all been done before. He has scored against all the top nations and you cant put the number of tries he has scored down to soft, against weak opposition etc, it just does not wash.

The guy has the 2nd highest Bok strike rate ever - hardly a fluke now is it

No it's not a fluke. Most top quality Bok backs couldn't be bothered against sides like Namibia. Fury saw it as an opportunity to pad his stats. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say Fury tried harder against Namibia than he did against NZ.

So just to set this second best strike rate in perspective. He scored 32 tries for the Boks.......half came from sides the Boks beat up as a matter of course. Most of those teams wouldn't be as tough as the not so golden Lions. I'm talking about  Uruguay, Georgia, Samoa Namibia, USA, Fiji, Italy, Scotland and Argentina.

So what about the other 50%? Ten tries came in the TN and six came from the likes of France, Wales, England, the Lions and Ireland. 

But the 16 tries against the patsies, came in only 20 matches.....which means he played 48 matches against real opposition and scored 16 tries against them. A strike rate of 33% not so unusual hey?

Then if you zoom in on the TN and compare him to Marius Joubert. Fury scored  10 TN tries in 28 matches, for a strike rate of 36%. Marius scored 6 TN tries in 11 matches, for a strike rate of 55%. And Marius' tries linger in the memory. Especially when he ran over Umaga to win the TN....and when he gassed the whole Aussie backline from 65 metres. 

So what to make of this Fury strike rate thing?  I believe two unusual things padded his strike rate. Firstly the fact that he played in 3 RWCs and therefore had a lot more games against patsies. Secondly his very conscious effort to continue in scoring, even when the game was won.

Against worthy opponents he is middle of the pack.

Fourie is the top South African try scorer in the Tri Nations... ever. His two scores against Scotland saved us from certain defeat. His British Lions try saved us from certain defeat. On a regular basis Fourie scores very important tries in the most critical of moments. In terms of tries scored and the importance to attached to those tries, he is the most valuable centre in Bok rugby's history.

Now please tell me where Adi has made any kind of important contribution in any test? He single-handedly nearly blew the 2009 Lions series; they targeteted him and exploited him ruthlessly. Throughout 2008 and 2009 he was a defensive liability of the highest order and offering virtually nothing on attack. Certainly nothing that Fourie does not offer with far more potency. There is a reason why Jacobs is not held in high regard by ANYONE outside of South Africa; not even in 2008. He was unanimously rated by Lynagh, Fitzpatrick and another Sky guest as 5th best centre in SA by the EOYT Welsh test. When teams base an entire strategy on a single player, to such an extent that they pin their entire effort on the success of that strategy, you know that there is something very, very wrong.

Be that as it may, I am busy getting the time stamps for these so called Adi gems.

Oh, and Mike, I am still waiting for your retort regarding Du Preez. As I said, I have nearly every game Du Preez played for SA at hand, certainly all of his TNs appearances. Please be so kind as to show that you yourself do not reside in that happy land of fiction.

Opinions aren't facts. The facts areFury's TN strike rate is not as good as other Bok centres, his strike rate against other top teams is goodish......and his strike rate against the minows is spectacular. A great centre against weak opposition. His pathetic defence almost lost us the Fiji match in the 2007 RWC.....and his inept play against Oz took us out of the 2011 RWC.

Rubbish. Fourie was in fine form throughout 2011, particularly the World Cup and TNs - you conveniently forget his 'pathetic' defence that directly prevented three All Black tries!

Fact: Fourie is the most prolific Bok try scorer in the TNs. What more needs to be said.

And more facts will be headed your way. Nearly through game 1 of the 08 TNs. This is going to be a delicious coup de main and the final blow to the Adi brigade.
 

While you are doing your studies don't forget to look at the pass he threw Habana when we had a 3 on 2......the fatal inward turn off F du Preez's charge down, when there was gaping space out wide....and his complete inability to back up any one of Jean's three clean line breaks.

Fury lost the QF through his sheer ineptness.....especially his inability to throw a decent pass.

And there is no Adi brigade, just me trying to put the attacks on this ostensibly decent and modest guy, in a fairer light.

Lets be quite honest here. Fourie never singlehandedly lost that game, rather the pathetic, worthless coward Lambie over ran his run and blew the most important moment of the entire game. something Kirchner would never have done. If only Lambie had Fourie's composure under pressure such as when he saved us in many a test. So, that right there was the QF shot between the eyes.

I disagree. Jean has been blamed in spite of cracking Oz wide open..... Lambie has been blamed by you and others for overunning the play.

What happened was Jean broke past several players.....Fury fell back and made a meal out of avoiding an Aussie player.....he wasn't there to back up Jean  (as always). As the defence got to Jean at the 22 he was looking for Fury....in vain. Meanwhile the Aussie cover was running back to snuff things out. There was a player between Lambie and Jean running back flat out. Jean threw his pass as flat as he needed to avoid that player.....Lambie simply ran onto the ball from a deep position.

If Fury was in position it was a certain try....and I have seen several S15 tries awarded since, where the pass drifted forward. The Boks got the benefit of neither circumstance.

But to blame Jean or Lambie who were the guys who made the opportunity and not notice Fury not backing up his partner is wrong minded.

And having checked my memory I find it's perfect. Your accusation of Lambie is dead wrong. Watch minute 3.50 of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9DzAf6Agow

The fact is de Villiers was at full pace, contending with a tackle. He had to find Lambie a half step ahead of Beale and squeeze the pass into that slot 15 metres away. Lambie had to outsprint Beale on his inside shoulder to even have a chance at receiving the ball.

Both players did brilliantly. The easy try was if Jean's partner was where he should have been, inside Beale, 3 metres away from Jean. But when Jean accelerated Fury was left behind. It's as clear as crystal.

Mozart - I was at Murrayfield when Fourie scored the two tries mentioned in earlier comments.   Both tries came as a result of openings created by other players and took place in the second half after Fourie Du Preez was replaced at half time and the back line started functioing properly in the second half.    Fourie did not create the try scoring opportunities and the end result was a huge win by the Springboks after leading at 6 - 3 at halftime.   Shows you waht a functioing back line can achieve.

However, you will never convince people on this Board by using facts - they just love their fictional believes based on unscientific perceptions far too much to care for facts based on statistics.

I'm  amazed by the take on that incident. From a South African perspective there was only one guy who didn't do what he should have. Lambie and especially JdV did everything we could expect.  But for some reason from the start Fury had a blind following among SA fans and the rugby press. Even when he conceded two tries in about a minute against Fiji in RWC07 there wasn't a peep. Totally teflon.