Springbok Backline for 4nations

After a disastrous start to the Coetzee era, we need to steady the ship and also make a few changes. Maybe bring back some old hands- as well as make some position changes, as well as bring in some other players. 
The back row was useless against the Irish and we need to have Jaco Kriel and Flouw on the pitch at the same time to compete at the breakdown. Wee Whitey is probably better of the bench. Maybe put Kolisi at 8 or Notshe. 
A starting backline of :
9. faff/ Pienaar. (We need someone who can kick - and Pienaar is solid at best
10. Jantjies. Lambie Morne  Goosen

12. Delande   (I am worried about Delande. He is not showing the offloads that he was doing for the Stormers last year. 
13. JP. I think the experience of JP should be closer to the action. He may even get Delande to pass to him. This would be more solid on defence. 
Mapoe can be a utility back that can cover wing.  
14.   Wille LerouxThis will take away kicking responsibility from willie le roux which has become predictable- ontop of inconsistent. (except consistently crap)
15. Combrink- a better clearance kick than Willie Leroux. He is better in contact on the last line of defence. 
11. Habana/ Sergeal Pieterson. 

Sharkbok,This is such a difficult thing to predict particularly after a poor showing in the Irish series.
If we had a world class 10 at our disposal and a game plan to attack out wide on set piece and phase ball, I believe we could make a more informed decision on who's best suited where.
There's been a fair bit of negative talk of Mapoe for example, that may be warranted but I for one cannot cast judgement because he has had close to zero opportunity on attack. For me JP is just a band-aid, and his days are over, I don't think he is going to be the Mortlock/Umanga of South African rugby.
I would NEVER bring Pienaar back.
In conclusion its just to hard to tell, it's simply a mess.

Our problem is that we don't have exceptional players in most positions. We have good players, but that is not enough. 
1. Beast okay but not great. Kitshoff looks to be a bright prospect . 2. Strauss okay but not great, Bizzie is too old3. Malherbe okay, jury still out. Coenie is way too inconsistent.4. Etzebeth world class, no problem 5. Du Toit starting to look like the real deal, but needs to prove himself6. Louw okay, but not great, Kriel needs to prove himself7. A bunch of sub-par options8. Whitely, Vermeulen no problem9. Faf very good, but lacks kicking game and there is nobody else to back him up10. Jantjes, Lambie, Steyn, Goosen. All good in certain areas, no complete 10 available in SA11. Combrink seems to be the business, no problem. Habana too old, Mvovo too shart12. De Allende. One dimensional, battling to find form. No plan B13. A bunch of alright players, no great ones.14. Pietersen is past it, no plan B15. Willie has been exposed, Goosen the only maybe. 
Basically, out of 15 positions, we have maybe 3 that can be filled by players that are exceptional. And even that is a stretch. For the rest, we have a bunch of middle of the road international players. That is not a recipe for a world beating side. 

The problem remains - namely the quota selections. I looked at the games against the Saxons as well and m selections would be as follows:-

15   Le Roux/Goosen

14   Combrinck

13   Venter

12    De Allende/Van Rensburg

11    Rhule/Petersen

10    Lambie/Goosen

  9    Faf de Klerk

  8    Whiteley/Vermeulen

  7    Labuschagne/Botha

  6    Kriel

  5    Du Toit/Jenkins

  4   Etzebeth

  3    Malherbe/Esterhuysen

  2    Strauss/Marx

1         Beast/Kitshoff

If Vorster gets back he would be my reserve center and Reinach’s return would be to cover at scrummy.   I am sick and tired in watching the Springboks struggling in protecting and recovering breakdown balls because of incompetent and pace-deficient loosies.   That was the balls-up under Meyer and is even worse now with Vermeulen and Louw under-performing badly.   That was why we struggled against the Irish - we had the worst loosie combination imaginable.

 

Must agree with you on that Mike. We were completely out of our depth at protecting our ball at the breakdown. As a result we kept on giving away penalties and/or possession. Our inability to build phases resulted in us being unable to maintain pressure and create opportunities and/or Irish mistakes. 

OK, there are three "teams" on this thread and it is no use doing another one. I would take SB's one and work from there since his idea was obviously to discuss the backline per se.
9. faff/ Pienaar. (We need someone who can kick - and Pienaar is solid at best .[I am not too happy with Pienaar but he what else do we have. Hougaardt has been doing brilliant for Worcester but he is involved in the sevens. I know that their are many who would cringe at seeing his name but what if he really has found his mojo again in England? But...... circ.umstances dictate that Page will be in the mix]
10. Jantjies. Lambie Morne Goosen [I would not have Goosen in here. More of him later. Problem, though is that we really do not have much else to choose from]

12. Delande   (I am worried about Delande. He is not showing the offloads that he was doing for the Stormers last year. [I am not worried about De Allende. I know about him but who else? Serfontein. Asse f@kken blief tog.]
13. JP. I think the experience of JP should be closer to the action. He may even get Delande to pass to him. This would be more solid on defence. [JP at 13? No no no. A thousand times no. Kriel? I have no hope with him in that spot either but what can we do?]
Mapoe can be a utility back that can cover wing.  [Maybe we should stick with Mapoe and see if he doesn't somehow get it right but I do not have much hope.]
14.   Wille LerouxThis will take away kicking responsibility from willie le roux which has become predictable- ontop of inconsistent. (except consistently crap) [Noooooo. Willie can go to the bench at best. I have had my doubts about him for the last two years, if not longer. If I could pull a ComradeMike on myself and go back to "the Ellis Park test", I would remind you that that was the test where he missed every single tackle and that was the one where he played at 14 as well. In my defence for going back to a single test, like my old friend usually does, is because Willie hasn't often played 14 for the Boks and that was the only one I can remember where he did. There could be more but I cannot remember. I think that we should stick with Combrink at 14]
11. Habana/ Sergeal Pieterson. [Habana is a gonner. Sad, very sad but true.]

15. Combrink- a better clearance kick than Willie Leroux. He is better in contact on the last line of defence. [Remember I said more about  Goosen later? Well, this is where I would have him right now. He has developed into a more than handy fullback at Racing and the fact that he has also been playing at 13, and doing well in that spot, would suit him well if he plays fullback. It would mean that when he joins the line and does it as a second 13, he could be devastating. Aoart from that, if you have Willie on the bench and you do bring Willie on, Goosen can slot into 13.]

Cera, you are in essence agreeing with my post....our problem is a lack of quality players, and I mean REAL quality players. 
We have a team of decent players, with the odd star, but that is not enough to challenge teams like Aus and England, and certainly not enough to challenge the AB's! 
This is our current reality! 

Bluebok, 100% spot-on. And for me non other is more important than the 10. Lambie is our only hope in the interim. I haven't seen enough of Goosen.   

 Well ... we clearly have issues here and that means we should throw caution to the wind and test other options out. What else can we do? Accepting this dead, dull, boring, mediocre backline isn't acceptable.
Mapoe has had an awesome season this year and I honestly thought he would take this form into the test arena. He hasn't. 
Is it because he's not getting much ball ... or is the step up a little too much for him. I don't know. All I can say is that he's been rather disappointing with the little ball he's had.
Is it time to look elsewhere or should we play him again in the RC?
To be quite honest, I'd be very tempted to look elsewhere. I don't think we're going to see much better from Mapoe.   
Vorster ... perhaps Venter ... De Jongh???
We have a massif problem at 12. 
De Allende doesn't have the necessary skill set to play there. He doesn't like to pass and that in itself limits the backline's options. His outside man will never be put into space. A full backline movement, from scrummy to wing to fullback isn't possible with De Allende there. He doesn't even know how to put the defensive structures in place. Crashballing is all he knows and to be quite honest, we need a whole lot more than that if we wanna challenge the best in the business. 
Janse van Rensburg? Venter perhaps? Odendaal?
We are soooooo far off the mark it's just not funny.
I don't have much hope with this coach and his conservative approach. One needs to be bold at times ... I don't think he has the balls to risk experimenting with the talent we have.
 

 MonsterBok
 
Status: Baby Bok 
Posts: 222RE: Springbok Backline for 4nations
June 28, 2016, 10:48:41

Bluebok, 100% spot-on. And for me non other is more important than the 10. Lambie is our only hope in the interim. I haven't seen enough of Goosen.

  
This is indeed a sad state of affairs. I have honestly never rated Goosen at 10 and have been saying that he should be at fullback for a long time. A number of our friends crapped themselves every time. I still believe that 10 is not his forte. 
Remember that many has seen him as our "saviour" at 10 since his appearances for the Junior Boks years ago. It is now five years later and this past NH season was the first time since then that he actually managed to "sort of" cement a spot in the starting line-up for Racing Metro. He has now matured, at the age of 23, turning 24 in a month. He has years ahead of him and can play a big roll in SA rugby. Just not at flyhalf. 
I have been butchered every time that I criticised him as a flyhalf, despite the fact that I never rubbished him as a rugby player. His saving grace, IMO, was the fact that he got away from the Bok side and SA rugby and got himself sorted out. Had he remained, he would probably have been stuffed up because he would have been in the Bok team all the way and as a flyhalf as well and he was not ready. Not at twnety. He is ready now. If they do bring him back into the Bok set-up, I truly hope that it will not be as flyhalf.
The above brings me back to my gripe with "pushing young players" too soon. There are a few examples of young players making the grade but they are the exception and not the rule. 
Lambie was supposedly going to win us the 2011 RWC. It is five years later and he is only coming into the fold now and he is still not great and he is still only one of two possibilities and not the undisputed number one with a back-up number 2.
PSDT was supposed to be God's gift to mankind and a world beater in 2012. He was not. He is only now coming of age as an international player. Four years later. He was a fragile child in 2012 when everybody was crapping on HM's head for not having him in his side, despite all his injury woes.
Jan Serfontein was another GGTM (God's gift to mankind) in 2012 with many wanting him straight out of the JRWC side into the Bok side. It did not work out. The list of GGTM's goes on and on and on. Jesse Kriel, Jantjies, Loodvoet, Cobus Reinach, etc, etc.
May I try to prove my point once again. Faf de Klerk. He was also supposed to have been in the Bok side three/four years ago. He is as ready as can be right now, at the age of 24. One day (if he isn't doing so already) he will thank HM for not playing him when everybody was crying for him to be included.
Back in the day, when we had an under 23 side, we did not have this BS of every second 20 year old, who faintly looks like he has seen a rugby ball before, being thrown into the Bok side.

 

Monsterbok

There recently were four games shown on DSTV involving Racing Metro – Goosen played in all four games.   Although stats do not give the full picture as to his involvement the following stats do give some indication of Goosen’s achievements:-

Montpellier -  Round Robin – Racing won 40-26

Goosen played at flyhalf.    His stats were as follows:-

Try assists                -       1

Conversion  pts      -        5

Kicks                         -       13

Pass                          -       19

Carries                     -         7

Meters gained       -       34

Clean break            -        1

Defenders beaten  -       3

Off-loads                  -       1          

Tackles                     -       4

Tackles missed       -        1

 Toulouse – Play Off – Racing won

Goosen played at 13.   His stats were as follows:-

Conversion pts        -      3

Kicks                         -       1

Pass                          -       5

Carries                     -        7

Meters gained       -       54

Clean break            -       

Defenders beaten  -       1

Off-loads                  -       1          

Tackles                     -       3

Tackles missed       -        1

Clermont – Semi-Final – won 32-31

Goosen played at 13. Stats were as follows.

 

Try scored            -    1

Conversion pts     -    8

Kick                     -    1

Pass                      -    2

Carry                    -   11

Meters gained      -   33

Clean breaks        -     1  

Defenders beaten -     3

TO conceded       ,      3

Tackles made      -      4

Toulon – Final – Racing won 29-21

 

Goosen played at 13.  His tats were as follows:-

 

Conversion pts     -    9

Kick                     -    4

Pass                      -    2

Carry                    -   10

Meters gained      -   57

Clean Breaks       -     2  

Defenders beaten -     4

TO conceded       ,      1

Tackles made      -      8

Tackles missed    -      1

 

Goosen only takes extra-long or difficult conversion kicks and has a really top success rate with those.  I think if we are really desperate we could play him at 13 – but I think he has a huge advantage in making strategic and well-placed kicks – so we can see from the above that he actually fits in well in the backlie in three positions.  He has not played for a while at full back for Racing – but he is regarded by Racing Metro as their most valuable backline player and bearing in mind Carter is also playing for them – it is indeed a huge compliment for the youngster.

 But the Top14 is a crap competition, not on par with the Currie Cup. Not so, Mike?

 Ag balls - doffies - I said that they are not a real norm - but that the player can prove themselves in real competition - like Kitshoff did on Saturday.  Both Louw and Vermeulen failed that test series badly.     

 Nope. You clearly rubbished it as club rugby and not on par with the Currie Cup.

 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 23478RE: How long is Morne Steyn going to last at Stade Francais?
September 04, 2013, 17:13:25

Ceradyne

Just to check the game again to see whether you - the great thinker who believes the French Top 14 is above CC level - I watched the game again and you were wrong on virtually every count - but that is to be expected. Morne made one relieving kick that was good and one that did not go out and was followed by a counter attack.

The starting flyhalf was average at best - but a hell of a lot better than Morne - who showed zilch. He twice attacked the gain line - lost the ball once in the process. He kicked a penalty ball over the dead ball line and missed a relieving kick. Where he was better than Morne was his passing game.

So start thinking before you right absolute drivel on this site.

Mike,I actually saw part of the semi final, Carters mob against Talouse (spelling), I was channel hopping at the time. I don't normally watch it due to the time difference here in Perth. I also read an article, forget where, where Goose explains his transition to 13 and he has certainly matured and is extremely humble. Goods solid Afrikaner traits not like us soetpeilitjies.
You know what, there's this talent everywhere but it's useless if we are hell bent on playing the patterns we all know we're gonna be subjected too with Ali cat.We may as well have a defensive wall and no additional skills whatsoever in our 12 & 13.
Let me put it this way even if we had Kurindrani at 13 we wouldn't get the ball to him.

Its not about the backs you numpty its about the forwards not dominating the physical battles and at best achieving parity thereby depriving the backs of ball to operate with. How much backline action did we see from our backs this series.

 

The issue lies in not selecting Kitshoff for the past it Beast, not selecting the more physical Bismark or Marx at hooker, playing and average openside in Louw at 6, not playing a bruiser at 7, but instead playing Kolisi a 6 at 7 and not having physicality at 8.

 

But given you brought up the backs, hell imagine being stupid enough to suggest past it JP at 13, the guy should no longer be in the side at all, he has lost his zip. The experiment of him at 13 failed with the Sharks, he is NOT a 13 just like Habana never was…..as for wanting passive Pienaar as our back up 9, how pathetic and regressive a step that would be. Why on earth do you want a kicking 9.

 

The backs we should be using for the RC are:

 

Fullbacks: Willie / Gelant

 

Wings: Combrink / Ulengo / Sergeal Petersen

 

Centres: de Allende / Jessie Kriel / Serfontein / Frans Venter / Rohan Janse v/Rensburg / Mapoe

 

Flyhalves: Jantjies / Lambie / Goosen

 

Scrumhalves: Faf / Groom

The problem with most of these alternate backlines/players is that they don't account for the quota. Its a reality that is not disappearing. Throwing out lineups without considering the quota is just a waste of time.
Its no longer who is best at the position. Its not as simple as Lambie vs Jantjies, but its an equation. If Coetzee picks Lambie or Goosen at flyhalf he has to insert a POC somewhere else to keep the balance. Replace DDA or Mapoe with Venter, Kriel, Serfontein, RJvR and the "situation" is even worse.
At least with Jantjies at flyhalf, Combrink can be picked on the wing.
Quotas mean Pietersen is a certain fixture as are DDA and Mapoe in some role,  Kitshoff will rarely start as there are two Test competent quota players ahead of him (Beast/Nyakane), at least one loose forward spot will always be a POC (Kolisi/Notshe (my preference at this stage), we will always have a sub par hooker (Scarra/Mbonami) and scrumhalf (Paige) on the bench, Jantjies will always be in the picture at flyhalf.
Coetzee has to make up the quota numbers somewhere.

Oinmatey- agreed. 
My team considered that Habana and JP were both players of colour- which is helping their cause. (only because they are both past their best at this stage of their careers). 
Habana in particular has been around the block for long enough- and now just a tiring work horse.
Additionally after the poor performance against Ireland I was thinking it time to steady the ship in the first year- even if it means bringing back a few old hands to pass the mantle. 
The team that played against the Irish could get 40 points on them in New Zealand.

Mvovo was a liability and every dog and their goldfish would be looking to kick to his corner. 

to be exact on the official quota stats-
- 20% or more players of colour
- 30% or more black players- Less than 50% white. 

Not sure if this is by 2019 or the current strategic transformation objective. 
The 20% is fine as would be achieved easily without quotas.

The 30% is going to be an issue with the current skills available. Beast and Mujati are merited. Kolisi is average as is Oupa.

 There are two issues insofar as quota selections are concerned - namely the strongest available team will not be fielded and the Springboks will lose against even mediocre teams.  Ireland was a lesson that is going to be bitter in future when the Springboks meet stronger opponents.  That can sent competitiveness down the drain and empty stadiums in future.   I cannot see how that can benefit rugby as a game and something will have to be done to save the game in SA.   It is a dark future indeed.       

Sharkbok - yea, that 30% black is going to be very hard to come by.  I was a little surprised Habana wasn't actually brought back when Louw / Vermuelen / Kitshoff were. Maybe those ratios were in play as part of the decision.
Either way, Coetzee really needed Mvovo to work out, but the decision to substitute him at the half for Combrink proved to be a critical decision.

Is Notshe black? crazy that we even have to ask that question......

A transformed team for the 2019 world cup 
1. Beast2. Ntumbu3. Mujuti/ Frans Steyn4 Faff De klerk (not much depth at lock)5 Kolisi6 Bongi 7 Notshe8 Nizaam Carr9 Ulengo/ "I forgot the reserve a team scrumhalf"10 Jantjies/ Schalk11 Mvovo12 Delande/ Matfield13 JP14 Sergeal Pieterson15 Rhule
BenchNaas Botha

 Faff, Lambie, Seargal Petersen, Janse van Rensburg, Vorster, Combrinck, Gelant ...

 Vorster and Gelant are  both out with long term injurie - will not be available for the RC.

 Will you oaks please exclude de Allende from the list of POC . According to his father,  Mr deAllende  snr., he is a white fella .

 De Allende is one of SB's white quotas.