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FORUM / RUGBY /  Springbok flyhalf...who should it be?

Springbok flyhalf...who should it be?

Started by Mozart35 REPLIES430 VIEWS· 13 Apr 2014, 23:18
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Apr 2014, 23:18
#1
13 Apr 2014, 23:18#1

The conservative point of view is a choice between Lambie and Morne Steyn. Boshoff is a newer version of the kicking flyhalf. Potgieter has matured into a complete flyhalf. And then there is Goosen.



Whoever we choose will succeed or fail because of their reaction to pressure. So here's my take.


I think Morne won't cave, he has been there before. But he also won't be a dynamic  player in general play....more a safe pair of hands.


Lambie is much the same player, maybe a little better in defence, but he hasn't proven he can make the pressure kicks...periodically he hasn't.


Boshoff is a blue collar choice...a tough guy. But does he provide enough of an increment to choose him over the much more experienced Steyn?


Potgieter has had some great moments and has forced himself into contention. But at the end of the day, would NZ choose him....would Australia? I think he might be a third of fourth choice....can we win with a deficit at 10?



Then there is Goosen. He showed his pace a week ago in making a great cover tackle. He hasn't done much with the ball and the Cheetahs have looked no better with him at the helm vs Watts. But he has landed some big kicks. In the final analysis his fragility is a factor and I just can't see him being a settled pivot in a RWC final. More of a last 20 minutes option if we need to throw caution to the winds.


That leaves Fransie.....the closest thing we have to Honiball or James....but with a huge boot. A player who lends physicality that suits the Boks and has the nerve for the big moment. I see Frans as the only player who could be an effective ball carrier and a defensive factor.


So frankly I'm bemused why we don't grasp this alternative to the pure kicking flyhalf....an option we get without losing, in fact enhancing, the kicking.


My long range pick is Frans with Goosen on the bench.

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 00:16
#2
14 Apr 2014, 00:16#2
 Mozart
You really have gone ballistic in respect of Francois Steyn.  A ball carrier that does not really carry balls 0 a defender that misses far too many tackles.  Yesterday there was an incident in the Shaks game that showed how really slow he is.   Over 20 meters he had more than two meter start on Skosan and Skosan ended up beating him by nearly two meters.  Must be the slowest backline player in SA at present.  In recent matches players ran past him at speed and he did not even attempt a tackle.
Then there is his passing game.  He was seriously criticized by Nass Botha and Mallett yesterday about making skip passes whereby an existing overlaps were destroyed and an attacking move was stopped.    The skip passes happened repeatedly and was predictable as anything Steyn does.   It is only a miracle there was not an intercept. Fir the rest his passing is often enough inaccurate and non-productive.
Howeverm the main problem with Steyn is he destroy any potential try-scoring opportunities by the Sharks backline.   In 7 matches the Sharks backline scored tries. In only one try he made a contribution by a cross kick.   F our of the eight tries were scored by Jordaan (2), Lambie and Reinach and in neither of these did he play any tole whatsoever,   Three of the remaining tries came from intercepts and other cases where Steyn did not touch the ball.   In other words - the moment he gets involved any try scoring opportunities vanish.
You says he has abilities he has never shown once in Super 15 - bar 5 long distance penalties he kicked,   But you never realized how many try scoring opportunities he destroyed by unthinking play.  Naas and Mallett said it happened three times yesterday alone.   Steyn is definitely not a ball sense player and he is defective in ball skills too - in 7 games he gave away a total of 10 penalties and lost ball possession 13 times.   That alone puts a serious q uestion mark over his ability to be an acceptable flyhalf.
A pivot needs to read the game and play accordingly - Steyn is not able to do that and that is a fact.  He will cost us dearly if he ever gets selected as a 10,
                 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 01:10
#3
14 Apr 2014, 01:10#3
You keep repeating What Mallett and Botha said at the half, what did they say  after he won the game?
SH
Shezza
Pro2,471 posts
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
14 Apr 2014, 01:36
#4
14 Apr 2014, 01:36#4
 Might have something to do with Drotske using Le Roux as a pivot rather than Goosen. Goosen needs to go to the Stormers next season (Only if there is some sort of change in management) in my humble opinion.
Goosen would still be my pick for Bok 10, Super 15 form doesn't always equate into test form.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 01:51
#5
14 Apr 2014, 01:51#5
 Mozart
I keep repeating what they said - because they did not share your silly opinion that Steyn won the match for the Sharks.  After the match they dealt largely with inexperience of the Lions players who could have lead in points if they took their kicks at goal and did not go for short runs after getting easy penalties they could have converted.
In other words they said the Lions could have done much better with more experience and they rakjed about the Sharks good defense and the opportunism of Mvovo and very very little else  about the Sharks and nothing about Steyn - other than the reference to his two long kicks at goal. 
So that sums it up - we have a case where Steyn reads games poorly and make the wrong decisions which Mallett and Botha regarded as inexcusable.        
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 02:39
#6
14 Apr 2014, 02:39#6
Well lower down you say Mallett flopped, now you are quoting him as the gospel. How can I take you seriously OOm.  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 03:40
#7
14 Apr 2014, 03:40#7
Mozart
Another flip response.  I think Mallett is a good assessor of performance - but not really good HR bloke he could not replace the players Du Plessis brought in.  However, Naas was even harsher than Mallett on the issue and in fact led the discussion when they used graphics to show the overlaps  and Steyn's poor reading of the game by using wide passes and thus elimating the overlaps and forcing the game to the sideline.
They were unsure about the issue of replacing Zeilinga if he cannot play and thought that Swiel needed more game time before eh could be a confident selection - but they never said anything about Steyn being a long term prospect at flyhalf.
What I am amazed about is that after saying last year that Steyn was not suitable to play at flyhalf - now he is suddenly your top choice as Springbok flyhalf.  What briought about this sudden change????        
OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
14 Apr 2014, 05:45
#8
14 Apr 2014, 05:45#8
Good arguments. I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a run there in June series to see how it goes. This season has brought unexpected depth at the flyhalf position, even with Morne overseas and Lambie hurt.
MD
Monkey D Luffy
Pro6,277 posts
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
14 Apr 2014, 06:16
#9
14 Apr 2014, 06:16#9
i thought that lambie was going to miss most of the spXV season but be back in time for the Boks???

even if lambie was available, IMO jacques potgeiter has shown more then enough to be considered the front runner for the No10 jersey.

he has the best all round kicking game in spXV, not just in SA but the entire spXV.
and he has shown more eagerness to attack with the ball in hand then any other saffa 10.

he is still by NZ/OZ standards a naturally conservative pivot, but he is prepared to take the line when the opportunity presents itself, and that IMO is a major bonus.

SA rugby arent prepared to play the attacking type of game that NZ and australia play, but jacques offers a nice balanced approach, a flyhalf who can wein the Boks into the right path, without compromising the Bok 10 man DNA which has made them the most successful No2 team in the world.
OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
14 Apr 2014, 06:22
#10
14 Apr 2014, 06:22#10
i think Lambie will be available Sas, should have been more specific within the context of the conversation.
And yes, I agree on JLP. With the rest of the team falling apart this weekend he continues to be rock solid. Lets see if he keeps it up



MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 07:51
#11
14 Apr 2014, 07:51#11
 Test rugby is so much faster and tighter than the s15. Personally I can't see Potgieter running at 10 in tests. Frans is a Roberts like character....I think with coaching and more time to settle he could be effective.
Mike as to your question on my change on Frans. Last year he was simply not fit, and in any case I prefer Jean at 12. But going way back to his early days I always supported Fransie at 10. We  gave up on him because he was seen to be selfish at 10... the  other interpretation was he was willing to make decisions and take responsibility.

No international flyhalf has better physical assets....could it be we are over thinking this and the obvious answer is staring us in the face.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 07:51
#12
14 Apr 2014, 07:51#12
 Test rugby is so much faster and tighter than the s15. Personally I can't see Potgieter running at 10 in tests. Frans is a Roberts like character....I think with coaching and more time to settle he could be effective.
Mike as to your question on my change on Frans. Last year he was simply not fit, and in any case I prefer Jean at 12. But going way back to his early days I always supported Fransie at 10. We  gave up on him because he was seen to be selfish at 10... the  other interpretation was he was willing to make decisions and take responsibility.

No international flyhalf has better physical assets....could it be we are over thinking this and the obvious answer is staring us in the face.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Apr 2014, 10:46
#13
14 Apr 2014, 10:46#13
 Potgieter is probably our best all round package right now but fortuntaely we still have tyhe rest of the Super15 to finalise the matter. Frans looks to be on an upward curve, Boschoff is playing very well so not too much to worry about re flyhalf.
We must this year reclaim our traditional number 1 spot from the usurpers the wee abs. Its totally rediculous these feeble oaks should be number 1!!Meyer must get the balance right and on the highveldt pick a bit more mobile pack.

JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Apr 2014, 12:03
#14
14 Apr 2014, 12:03#14

Moz: I think the encumbent is the man!

 

The rest show bits an pieces of talent but he has the proven track record. 

 

One guy has a big boot (& belly); one is made of glass; one is a wee chap & takes after his name.

 

Morne is the real deal who combines it all (big boot, big belly; glass-ish; & exhibits lamb like tendencies (never wants to take it flat and try an break the line). What more could you ask for?

 

Don't worry about the fact that he stands 20 meters back to recieve the pass from the 9. That shouldn't be a problem. You have fast loose forwards who can get back to cover any mistakes.

 

In all seriousness though you will need them all to cover for injuries (as the ABs have demonstrated). It is good that talent at the 10 postion is emerging and there is competition.

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 13:06
#15
14 Apr 2014, 13:06#15
Mozart
Your arguments make no sense at all - they in fact refers to one thing which is true - namely the fact that Steyn was unfit last year.
You then went on to argue that Steyn used to be selfish - but has that in fact changed?   Ir definitely has not changed in respect of his center play.  You elsewhere referred to Jamie Roberts as an example.  At center he tries to play the Jamie Roberts game = but he was very ineffective playing that kind off game as well.
However, what is most alarming about Steyn is the other comment of yours and I quote you as well:-
*Test rugby is so much faster and tighter than the S15"  Physically Steyn obviously is fitter than he was last year - but he had a speed deficiency last year and he still has the same deficiency this year.   That speed deficiency caused him to be ineffective in ball carrying and  tackling - it really is alarming.
The other issue is obviously his role in decision making at flyhalf.   That is problematic - as is evidenced by his games when he played at flyhalf for the Sharks - both full games and when he took over from Lambie.   His passing game was 
*   In the Lions game very questionable and even wild;
*   Saturday he kept on making wide passes in the first half and then - when he should have played normally - especially with overlap situations.  He perobably ft a tonge lashing from White for that - bacause he did not try it again in the second half. but by then the opportunities  were gone.  
The above showed that as slow is he is speed wise - his thinking and reading of the game is slow as well.   That perhaps account for all the possession losses and penalties as well.   You may argue it is raw stats - but the penalties given away and ball possession losses is a reality.   Incidentally one of the reasons for ball possession losses is forward passes - the other is a tendency to kick balls directly into touch.  Both has to do with his thinking ability more than his physical attributes.
There remains another aspect which needs assessing.   Steyn's kicking abilities.  There is no way anybody could differ from you about his long distance penalty kicking ability.   When it is straight in front of the posts or at a slight angle he did very well.   In those case he h as an advantage of about 5 to 8 meters on other flyhalfs.  At angles he is not accurate from that distance and then tries to nake line kicks.  Matter of fact he tried a long distance acute angle penalty on Saturday and failed.   In all the games played at flyhalf he made 5 long distance penalties - which others would not be able to make.   
That brings me to his out-of-hand kicking.  Those are often enough too far ahead for effective follow-up - with a tendency to kick balls directly into touch - thus handing over possession to the opposing team.   You would argue against that one 0 but he did it twice on Saturday.   On test level that is just not good enough.                     
Your argument on physicality is true - but physicality should be matched by physical ability - and there are serious indications that it is not.  At center he reminds you of Jame Roberts - at flyhalf he reminds me of Luke McAllister.  The latter has had his moments at flyhalf for the All Blacks - but he had the same physical and mental attributes and did not last for exactly that reason.           
FO
ForeverArizona
Club Pro580 posts
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
14 Apr 2014, 16:21
#16
14 Apr 2014, 16:21#16
 One major problem...all these guys are white lol...Mbalula has made that quite clear now.Your flyhalf will be Earl Rose or Elton Jantjies.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Apr 2014, 16:37
#17
14 Apr 2014, 16:37#17
Goosen would be my 10 with Frans as the back-up  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 16:45
#18
14 Apr 2014, 16:45#18
Saffex 
I think you are correct here,  I think they could consider Steyn for the bench in certain cases - but definitely not against teams like New Zealand and Australia.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Apr 2014, 16:49
#19
14 Apr 2014, 16:49#19
I'd be happy with Frans starting, but only at 12  
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 17:32
#20
14 Apr 2014, 17:32#20
Frans' game is much more suited to 10 than 12. There is absolutely no  clear reason why he shouldn't be a test 10.....none whatsoever. As for Goosen, one can't simply ignore his fragility. How many times already this season has a move ended only to see Goosen on the deck being attended by the medical folks. It introduces an element of uncertainty and must be quite demoralizing for the team. Besides which, Willie is the guy who sparks the Cheetahs not Goosen.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Apr 2014, 17:45
#21
14 Apr 2014, 17:45#21

Disagree, under pressure in a Test environment, Frans would not be the answer at 10. His best spot is 12 away from the decision making. His physicality is a huge bonus at 12.

 

 

Goosen's fragility is a concern although he seems to have come through the season ok this year. Little can be done about a blow to the head as he got this weekend.

 

 

I'd have Goosen at 10, with Serfontein of Frans at 12, with Frans the back-up 10  

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 18:09
#22
14 Apr 2014, 18:09#22
Mozart
Does everything in your thinking stop at long distance penalty conversions and physical strength?   Fine with the long distance penalties, but the physical strength of Steyn is never really in evidence and his speed is like that of a tight 5 player.  
Because of his speed deficiency, his defense is a nightmare story and he has yet to make a single line break this year.   There is not a single other flyhalf or center in any SA Super 15 team that has not done that and who does not have a better defensive record than Steyn.
Saffex is absolutely right about his decision making.  That more than anything else conttributes to his poor record of ball handovers to the opposition, as well as the poor tryscoring record of the Sharks.
I would support his selection - but then he will have to up his speed considerably and improve on his decision making.   The first is technically possible, provided he gets his weight back to what it was at the start of the season - namely 106 kgs.  He is back to 110 kgs - which can only serve to slow down his speed.  The second problem is much more difficult - normally a player is a natural ball sense player/reader of the game and acts accordingly.  That element can only be coached into a player with extreme difficulty and with very limited success.   Steyn is not a natural.         
         


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 18:25
#23
14 Apr 2014, 18:25#23

This BS about his decision making started when he had a few kicks charged as a youngster.....he has learned not to go for the bomb when under pressure. And for heaven sake....if his decision making is flawed why in the blue blazes would you even consider him for Bok centre? Don't centres make decisions?

 

He has the first requirement for good decision making....steady nerves. The rest is top level experience playing flyhalf and a bit of coaching.

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 18:49
#24
14 Apr 2014, 18:49#24
 Mozart
I would not call Steyn's decision making ever as good whether him playing at center or as a flyhalf,   His main characterisitic at center this year was charging straight at the first defender - no decision-making at all.   That was typical of serious ball hogging as well.    How many times did the players outside of him not had acres of space ahead of them and it never enter's into Steyn's mind to pass ball to them?  His skip passing on Saturday with clear overlaps in evidence showed serious deficiencies in reading the game as well.
I have never ever seen a player who has his reading of games improved by "a little coaching" or for that matter experience.   Morne is a typical example where neither experience or coaching made him a better flyhalf.   Up to the last test he played in he was told to do when he received balls and even then made horrible mistakes.
If Steyn was good at decision making would the Sharks not have had a better try scoring record than they have at present?   Why is he bar one cross kick never involved in tries being scored by the Sharks backline players? 
The answer to the latter question is poor decision making - a serious defect in his case.             
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 21:53
#25
14 Apr 2014, 21:53#25
Mike you are so biased and invested in your own opinion, you could pop any moment. Face it you were wrong on Fransie, wrong on Victor, wrong on Alberts , wrong on de Jongh, wrong on Labuschagne.....and quite unable to pull back when your theories implode. 
GE
generaltit
Pro3,164 posts
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
14 Apr 2014, 22:10
#26
14 Apr 2014, 22:10#26

 A guess match at the moment...too many variables and ifs and buts. But there are three that stand out...Pat Lambie (recovery question) Frans Steyn (used correctly in game plan) and Goosen (injury prone). Not withstanding this there are a few good prospects as well with Boshoff, Zelinga and Swiel standing in the wings of the choice. 


Great respecter of Morne Steyn but it's time to say goodbye.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Apr 2014, 22:15
#27
14 Apr 2014, 22:15#27
Chaballs it's hard to say goodbye to a player who isn't even present.....methinks we haven't seen the last of the Boot of the Century.  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Apr 2014, 23:42
#28
14 Apr 2014, 23:42#28
 Mozart
If you are honest you would recognize Steyn's actual performance problems and not just look past them.   I m not biased I can see what is wrong and right.   I am not the only person or institution that did recognize it.   Steyn's performance evaluation on at least four website are negative to poor.  
He just make too many mistakes in both ball handling and defense. 
All those wrongs - none of which has in fact been proven - being quoted is again an effort to draw away attention from what is being discussed on this site,
Lets look at the so-called wrongs:-
Steyn
Goal Kicking                      =   Very GoosO ther facet of performance =   Poor
Matfield
Line out Work                    =   Very GoodRest of performance          =   Very, very average
Matfield is playing his old game = he does not enter mauls - he does not involve himself with the tight 5 standard duties.   Long way to prove that he is still international level player.
De Jongh

Played only two matches and I admitted he did well.  Only problem is he handed ball possession over to the opposition too many times.   He has the rest of the season to prove that he is better than he was last year - last year defense was a major problem and two matches are not enpouigh to determine whether that facet has improved.
Labuschagne
Talking bullshit is your trade.   Labuschagne did very well so far this season - bar in two games where he was carrying an injury/or was indisposed.  Talking about bias  
There is one thing that surprised me about dealing with rugby issues and that is that you are so blatantly uninformed on issues and your evaluations are so shallow.   For instance raising issues that is open to wide scale public debate on this site such as -
*  an article appearing in the media on what is wrong in Rugby in SA; and*   the lack of try scoring by SA franchise teams.    
In your responses you tried to make out there are no problems without giving any reasons for such responses.   
I think you are not knowledge-deficient - you just refuse to respond because it affects some of your favourite players and shows up their deficiencies - prejudice will not allow it.   
 

       
SH
Shezza
Pro2,471 posts
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
15 Apr 2014, 00:04
#29
15 Apr 2014, 00:04#29
Boot of the century would go to one Mr.Wilkinson, not Steyn.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Apr 2014, 00:10
#30
15 Apr 2014, 00:10#30
 Mike re Frans give him a fair run at 10 before concluding.De Jongh has not in previosu season shown himself to be a test centre. he is I believe 25 so its  time he showed his mettle.
Matfield is as you rightly say as one dimensional as it gets. We cannot afford to play a tight 4 - end of story. He is a dismal choice. Is actually not a lock at all.
Labuschagne is a very good loosie with big work rate. However the competition at lose forward is huge. It is precisely here that Meyer needs to think very carefully. He needs more mobility on the highveldt. I am backing Britz to come through. 108 kg and really pacy and plays for 80 minutes.
Interesting pack young pack
Kitshoff, Strauss, Malherbe,Etzebeth, Du PlessisKriel, Britz (8) Du Toit (7)Not forgetting Lood etc etc
Pity we dont have tours where Bok combos can be tried
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Apr 2014, 03:04
#31
15 Apr 2014, 03:04#31

I like Steph du Toit as a blindside flank up north, but then we have Alberts. Man did that guy make some great tackles on Saturday. Etzebeth is superb, du Plessis a work in progress with a destination that is still unclear. And apart from the magnificent Strauss the rest are provincial players

 

 

What really puzzles me HasBeen-ou is this loyalty to the very ordinary Stormers props. Surely before they are considered as Bok material they have to win some battles in Super Rugby?

OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
15 Apr 2014, 05:11
#32
15 Apr 2014, 05:11#32
My perspective on Goosen - he is far off his pre-injury level of play, seemed to be avoiding contact in the early games, starting to get his confidence back a little but is still not the creative spark of the Cheetahs - that belongs to LeRoux and here recently Pretorius, can't see him standing up to the physicality of Test rugby as he is struggling to stay upright in Super Rugby, is obviously gutting it out and playing through pain with great courage but needs to go get 100% healthy as he is a phenomenal talent.


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Apr 2014, 05:33
#33
15 Apr 2014, 05:33#33
Matey people are blasé about Frans' kicking...but that one kick of his on Saturday was epic....3 metres from the opponents 10 metre line and near touch. Has anybody kicked it further in the professional era? This is a 9.6 second 100 metres,  a remarkable athletic act from the Bubba Watson of big kickers. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Apr 2014, 06:49
#34
15 Apr 2014, 06:49#34
Mozart
One incident in a game and a 15 seconds 100 meters player is turned into a 9,6 meters player.   How facetious can you get?
That Skosan incident showed that Steyn actually has the speed equivalent of a tight 5 player.   
And Alberts made one very good tackle - not many as you stated - the rest was bog ordinary or missed ones.  However, that good tackle did not result in a ball turnover to the Sharks - in fact they got penalized for transgression following the tackle.   On e good tackle suddenly becomes "Man did that guy make some great tackles on Saturday."  What a load of baloney from a one-incident jerk    
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Apr 2014, 07:03
#35
15 Apr 2014, 07:03#35
 It's the middle of the night OOm ....what  happened, did you get the Frans  Steyn boot for snoring again....hahaha.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Apr 2014, 07:24
#36
15 Apr 2014, 07:24#36
— END OF THREAD —

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