Not since Monty have we had a consistent and world class fullback; in the four years that Peter was at the helm we had Monty, Jantjes, Kirchner, Aplon, Frans, Morne, Pienaar, Lambie and JP Pietersen all take the field at 15. What we need is to identify that player that will serve the Boks for the next four years with distinction. Personally, I back Riaan Viljoen. I don't think there can be many arguments against him. Time and again he stands tall for the Sharks and is the star of that backline. His contributions are as wholesome as his calm head is unflappable. He has test quality written all over him.
Springbok Fullback Candidates
I do agree with you, he is definitely the inform fullback at this stage. However, how long will it last, and how long will it take Taute to mature at fullback (once moved back there off course) or Maybe Naka has tha perfect fullback already and plauying him on the wing. At this stage he is ths in form guy problem is can you back him for the Long term?
I don't think Viljoen is a case of being on form. He has maintained a high level of performance every week. I'll back him on the basis of proven class. As for Taute and Lambie? I don't see where they have an edge over Viljoen, and that they aren't being played at fullback, I think we can safely remove them from the equation altogether. In Lambie's case, he is busy being destroyed by Plumtree as their premier 10 (Bosman) is being shunned. Who knows, in a few weeks, things could change significantly; I doubt it though.
Riaan is afine player but is now 29 years old. A lot depends on who Meyer plays at center. There is of course Frans, Lambie, Riaan, Taute and Kirchner to think of currently even Aplon. Its probably out of Taute and Lambie. Both will be in their prime come WC.
He is 28 now. Lambie is too passive, and will not get game time at 15 at the sharks. Taute is quite a bit down the pecking order. Frans is painfully average at 15. We have talented players at 15, but not many genuinely world class options.
Taute Talent wise i honestly think is our long term option. Form wise not so much.
However I would like to see Willie from the cheetahs play fullback at this level. Just to see if he can make the step up. He is defnitely better than Daniller if you take his games for Boland at fullback. However it is still open for Debate on wheither he will be able to make the step up. I think his unpredictability from the back will be a great asset for the cheetahs, and..... maybe .....depending on if he can make the step up....The Boks.
But the final verdict will always go with the definites and not the what ifs. So Viljoen is the Front runner and will be until someone else steps up.
As a typical Bulls supporter I am going to suggest Kirchner, he has had a very good season so far, and he is very good under the high ball. Having said that, I still rate Lambie as a fullback and NOT a flyhalf. He just does'nt do anything special as a no.10. Joe Pietersen is and option, and even though he is just wee, he still took down Spies one on one in this weekend's match. PLEASE DON'T PUT FRANS STEYN AT FULLBACK!! He is a 12.
Just a side note, what has happened to Morne Steyn's kicking/ He was absolutely shocking this weekend, both out of hand and off the tee. It could be argued that he single handedly lost the game for the Bulls this weekend, 2 missed penalties and a missed conversion....as he did when the Bulls lost to a rubbish Blues side.
Riaan was born 1 April 1983 so is 29. Frans would be excellent at 15 but we possibly need him at 12 more.
The challenge is for Meyer to get the Super 15 coaches to co-operate with his vision.
Best of luck with that Meyer.
Well I weigh WC performance above regular test performance, which I rate way above S15 form. Riaan Viljoen is a fine player and should have had chances years ago.....when I picked him as a potential Bok. But the years have intervened and his potential tenure is short, so I would only use him if no other options are available.
But there is another option Patrick Lambie, and he was as good a 15 as played in the RWC. Against Oz he was penetrative, calm and imaginative. He saw Jean's break and got on the end of it. I still believe that was a drift pass and he scored the winning try....but no matter, the timing could have been out by a fraction. He still had the vision to see the opportunity.
I wrote at the start of the S15 he should be left at 15 to become the world's premier 15. This boy is brave, tackles beautifully in open field and is a calm decision maker. Look no further.
Uhm so that would not make Viljoen a long term option, as Is krichener unfortunately Bluebok. Joe Peterson as much as i loved the guy before he left has been largely innefectual. However potential wise a runner. I'll stick with Taute though. and my wildcard from the cheeeetaaaaahs.
Yeah Ek, you're probably right about Kirchner, although he does have a few Springbok Caps already. He has just impressed me this year with his running game and also under the high ball. Coming back to Montgomery, he only established himself as an influential fullback much later in his career. Before he went over seas for a few years he was nothing more than average. From that point of view I don't think it is too late for either Kirchner or Viljoen.
I think Kirchner has the inside lane though because of his history with Heineke Meyer and the fact that he already has test caps.
A few disastrous Bok caps you mean ....remember how Israel Dagg beat his tackle in a metre of space next to the touchline to win the test. The Woolly Boolie doesn't have the head for test rugby.....Lambie is the man.
There is only one candidate for me and that is Lambie. Taute who was good at 13 for the Lions this weekend, stays at 13 for me and would be my Bok 13.
Viljoen is solid but nothing special, brings nothing exciting on attack. Besides he turns 29 or 30 this year - is past it. Lambie on the otherhand is a special player. He walks my Bok 15 spot with ease. If not Lambie then Kirchner it is
I wish I could agree completely with you Dave, given we are on the same page about Lambie. But the fact is the Woolly Boolie had his test chances and flubbed, because of poor kicking, almost non existent open field tackling and a head as woolly as it looks.
As for young Taute.....de Jongh handily bested him this weekend and when they played against each other. Those straight enthusiastic runs.... with no swerve, no step, no acceleration, no deception and medium pace.....will get cut down every time as they were against the Saders.
No Moz , Kirchner is far better than that and currently the best 15 playing in SA at the moment. Lambie is stuck at 10, but no need to question his credentials. As for de Jongh v Taute, there was nothing in it. You clearly missed the Lions v Saders game, for Taute was good at 13.
How on earth you can conclude that Taute has no pace or step is beyond me. This is the same guy you raved about last year at 15 for the Lions - now all of a sudden he cant step and is on that list of yours as no hopers. I really dont get you Moz
Kirchner was beaten by Dagg, we get it. However, you fail to mention how Kirchner skinned Smith AND Dagg in the very next game! Kirchner is far and away our most effective attacking fullback. Not since Joubert have we produced a player that can join the line from fullback like he can. In terms of defence he has been very good. His only genuine cock-up was the first All Blacks test of 2010. That said, he was a part of a back three comprising Jean and Habana. This is a defensive unit, and unfortunately Jean was ravaged. You must take the unit into consideration. Much like the 3rd Lions test where Odwa and Akona had absolute shockers!
As for Lambie, I rate him as a potentially very good fullback. Had he been playing consistently at fullback in this years Super XV - as he should have been with Bosman at 10 - I would have backed him outright. There is one problem with him though; he is a very passive player and is prone to nerves. He reminds me a lot of Pienaar in that he is naturally very talented, but he doesn't play with conviction or authority. He needs to be left in one position where he can grow in confidence. This is absolutely key to his development. Right now we are watching a potential great being destroyed week after week in a position that he just isn't coming to terms with. Unlike Frans he will not have the mental and emotional strength to recover from this foul-up. My prediction is that this is Lambie's last year to make it, after this he will start to descend into mediocity and be forgotten by the next World Cup.
Dave I never raved about him....I complimented Taute on a few good performances. I do that. But seeing him at 13 he just doesn't have the guile to crack open test defences. He may be a candiadte at 15, but I haven't seen enough of him there in tight matches.
Dave let me try and explain my approach versus your approach. You celebrate any young player who comes along, meets your weight constraints and looks the part.
My approach starts with the observation that most of these guys fail....either in the S15 or test level. The real challenge is to identify those gems that are likely to make the breakthrough. So I look for knockout factors......Mvovo's lack of aggressive defence , which probably isn't coachable, Watson's lack of grunt and guts, Kirchner's lack of judgement, Olivier's lack of pace. One can see these things, and so can their opponents. At top level they can be exploited.
But there are gems. Fransie, Lambie, Bismarck.....and now perhaps Goosen, Marcel Coetzee, Kitshoff and Etzebeth. Players who have that something extra. These are the guys who interest me.....not the dog ordinary Flip Flops.
And once these guys are Boks and have proven they can contribute at the highest level.....like Jean, like Lambie, like Hougaard.....I want to stick with them. Rugby genius is hard to find.....it's mental, physical and has a lot to do with pure heart. Except for clear outliers it can't be devined by weight or performance in junior competition. It has to be clearly visible in the crucible.
Honestly Card I recall nothing about Kirchner skinning anybody, and by the TN home leg he was dropped without ceremony for Fransie.....he couldn't have impressed the selectors either. In the old days I'd be tempted to research this, but after your 5 tests without a Bok linebreak flub, I rather think the burden is on you. Your rabid comments about Jean seem to herald another fantasy.
Quite bold of you Moz condidering the pounding you took in that debate. You can hang onto the tidbit you got out of it, I'll hang onto the scalp. As per Kirchner, he was dropped as Peter was under pressure to somehow resurrect the 2009 gameplan. Fransie was supposed to be part of that by kicking large swathes of territory. unfortunately for Peter, the breakdown was emphatically won by New Zealand and our shambolic defence ruthlessly shredded by Australia. The selectors were scarcely in a coherent frame of mind, but in panic mode (Kankowski at 6 was a real peach of move). Here are the stats:
Game 1 v NZL
Kick/Pass/Run: 4-0-9
Metres Run: 72
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 3
Offloads: 0
Tackles: 4/3
Game 2 v NZL
Kick/Pass/Run: 4-2-10
Metres Run: 90
Clean Breaks: 1
Defenders Beaten: 3
Offloads: 0
Tackles: 1/1
Game 3 v Australia (Aplon replaces Jean on wing)
Kick/Pass/Run: 1-0-4
Metres Run: 34
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 1
Offloads: 0
Tackles: 4/1
Aplon replaced Kirchner for the home loss to New Zealand. He turned up inferior stats, though his 8/1 tackle stat was impressive. That was the game where he muched Muliaina, Rokocoko and Nonu. After this loss Peter recalled Frans for the remaining tests against Australia. He was very poor in both as he missed all his tackles in the second test which we lost. Kirchner also had excellent games in the in-coming tours and manfully stood tall at 13 on the EOYT against Ireland, dominating his more fancied opposite, O'Driscoll. He was also rock solid against Scotland and England for the remaining games, missing zero tackles and making excellent yardage. One of our better players in the final two games.
Honestly I feel the Sharks coach should be fired for playing guys out of their position. Just show me one of his position moves that have worked.
We don't need these S15 coaches destroying our Springbok teams ....after all Plumtree ain't South Africa is he?
The national coach should have the authority to define players and positions in S15 and Currie Cup teams.
Comments.
Lambie for #15
Viljoen and Kirchner will not contribute to the Bok side in any way ,shape or form.
It's funny, Mitchell has been exposed as has been Plumtree. Most Saffers wanted them to coach the Boks! JP at 13 has been a disaster, Lambie at 10 a disaster, Michalak at 9 a disaster. Far too many gaffs.
"He missed all his tackles in the second test we lost". Card this is noteworthy because when I told you Frans missed Mathew Tait and nearly cost us the 2007 RWC, you demurred. Apparently for you Frans only misses tackles at 15 not at 12!
Of course the truth is Frans is a heavy tackler, but not a guy who is very agile against a stepping opponent. But before you get any more egg on your face let me point out 2/2 in the tackling stats means 2 tackles made, two tackles missed....not that the player missed 2 out of 2 tackles. Hope that helps.
Now you are changing your angle to divert from the Kirchner topic onto that of Jean v Frans. Very interesting. I challenge you to quote me saying, "Frans only misses tackles at 15 not at 12". The tackle in the 2007 Final was a fortuitous duck by Tait. It happens. It was a World Cup final and England were desperate. You forget to note how Frans beat three would-be tacklers in succession in that final, or his nerveless penalty, or his ferocious defence. At centre Frans is a completely different animal. Outside centre is not one of his strengths, but his mobility was good enough to not only handle Shane Williams, but completely destroy him. Jean on the other hand gets run over and lacks Frans' mobility.
While we are on the subject of World Cup 2007. What was Jean's contribution whilst playing for 43 minutes?
18 metres run, 1 penalty, 7/4 tackles. Thank the heavens for Frans! Completely changing the compexion of our World Cup campaign!!
As for the original topic... sphlott... as it were.
But you were wrong about Frans missing both his tackles.....a gentleman would admit that.
Admit what? I already stated that Frans missed all of his tackles in his second test.
"He was very poor in both as he missed all his tackles in the second test which we lost"
Granted I never mentioned the number 2, but it's all self-explanatory really.
Just one question re Kirchner and it applies to de Jongh as well. How often have you seen them give a decent pass. Kirchener runs and can do a chip ahead but his linking, like de Jongh, has been atrocious.
If they learn to pass a ball one can review the situation. More often than not they die with the ball and the movement breaks down.
Far from being exposed Mitchell has been a shining light. He never had great depth in his side and he has suffered a lot of injuries. Lions have improved markedly under him. One has to give him his due. Carlos has also showed yet again that SA backs can run the ball.
Its crazy that the two lowest placed SA sides get the most out of their backlines. They are showing us SA backs can run the ball. And no I do not want stats re the bulle inflated figures arising as a consequence of the non event match against a reds side who did not compete.
Imagine if the Cheetahs ot Lions had the bulle backline.
I will grant you that some over valued the Currie Cup win which was fo the lions a wonderful boost nevertheless.
I hear you Mozn and the difference is that I have more faith in the ability of those who are not test incumbents, for I recognise the fact that we are blessed with depth in SA and that if we did not have Jean or Frans, that a player like Olivier would have made a good test incumbent. I completely disagree with your take on him, especially the point about his speed. There is no way in hell Frans or Jean are quicker than Olivier.
Same can be said of players like Kirchner, Mvovo, Greyling, Flip, Kankan etc
As for the weight thing, yes a modern test player has to meet the weight criteria for the game has moved on and there is no place for little guys any longer
Mitchell has done less with better players than Eloff had. Simple as that. Not only has he done less, he has turned the Lions into a painfully one-dimensional side.


