Squad has so many players short of international class

The following players don't have a chance of competing against the ABs and Wallabies:

Adriaanse.....why?

Marcel Coetzee (who disappears against tough packs....only a processs tackler)

Kolisi......another chance to watch him being held up.

Labuschagne ( dominated today by the Bools, a process tackler)

Nyankane....Nyan who?

Spies....a proven loser for at least 5 years

Flip....a penalty machine and bog ordinary

Basson....can't tackle

Hougaard...not a scrumhalf, Bools back play improved vastly with Vermaak

Kirchner....a pain to watch today, can't tackle, can't think

Mvovo.....serially dominated by the best NZ wings and remember the Bargie test.

All these guys are in the squad, but probably only Spies will get picked....is the good news. The fact that we are still confused about their worth, is depressing.

 Hougaard is a class act. 

Adriaanse got in because of the injury to MAlherbe. Marcell Van Der Merwe also is a good propspect but is injured.

Coetzee's problem is he is one dimensional.

Kolisi is about Vodacom standard.

Trevor is not a bad pick He could have a future.

Flip if fine.

Labaschagne is a prospect. Fine young player and he was dominated by no one today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mvovo has toughend up but we will miss JP. That oak Allistair stuffed up van der Heever this year.

Hogaard well its not a merit pick. will he come right - I have my doubts. Vermaak has to start.

There are a number of points where I differ from you and I will bane them:-

*   Adriaanse -  I said last week he was the best no 3 on display and you went ballistic.  He was also the best no 3 today - so you are talking crap in this case.  The real choice is Malherbe, but he is injured.   Jannie Du Plesis was bad this year - so we must look at alternatives.

*   Labuschagne - which games do you watch when Labuschagne plays?   Who dominated him today?  Standard crap

*   Coetzee is still a top loosie and what is a process tackler - is it a new Mozart phrase to discredit players?

*   I suspect you never watch any games the Cheetahs play in - otherwise you would not ask ridiculous questions about Nyakane.

The names you did not mention is much more problematic

*    De Jongh played a disappearing trick Twickenham and has the worst defensive record for a center in Super 15, no test  material

*    Alberts has a reputaion of being a strong ball carrier - but last year the average distance gained was less than 2 meters per carry and less so in the two games in Super 15 he played this year.   Also have a reputataion of being a good line out player - but there too he is lucky to win 1 line-out per test.  Defensive record in the tests last year was statistically way under par for a loosie.    Did not live up to his reputation last yeear and will be the same this year.    

Number 23?

So Mozart you prefer Sledgehammers like Alberts and CO who do the same predictable thing all match long getting gang tackled for 80 minutes,

Which means we will be back here on the monday with another thread at how shitty they looked and can't even get past a Argentine or whatever team defense?

Frankly Meyer could have selected the BOland squad for this upcoming games and we would still knock over Italy and a Samoa who got bundled over by the Lions. Only thing we have to fear for is getting is injuries to the little bit of talent we got left that is fit. 

Disagree with most of that Moz. I cant say there are many AB or Oz forwards that have stood out as better prospects than our youngsters, in fact the likes of Labascagne have proved better than what I have seen of the boys down south, except for the Blues blindside flank.

While Adriaanse has gone about his business with little fuss, he has actually been damn good in the scrums. The 25 year old has been solid and a far better bet than Pat Cilliers. Malherbe is injured and Marcel v/d Merwe has played no rugby this year.

Marcel proved his test status last year, despite playing out of position at 6. He has come good for the Sharks in the last few Sharks games. Better than any young Oz or Kiwi loosie. 

Kolisi has been good this year, up there with the best of the youngsters.

Labascagne has been the find of the S15, a great prospect. He has been huge in the tackle and shown some gas and great touches all season.

Nkanyane has been great for the Cheetahs this year, good in the scrums and big on tackling. Great prospect for a 23 year old. Better than any young Oz or Kiwi loosehead.

Flip has had a very good season, one of the standouts for the Bulls. I dont recall many penalties this year - that is historic.

Agreed on Spies, Kirchner and Basson.

Hougaard has had one average game this year. He has always been a 9, that's where he has played all his life. Wasted on the wing. Not sure how the Bulls backs improved when Vermaak came on. They did all the damage when Hougaard was at 9.

Mvovo has been our best wing this year. 

You have your facts wrong Spoon it was after we dropped Coetzee and Daniels, and picked Alberts, Vermeulen and Louw that we went on a winning run last year. Power makes a difference in tests

Dave these thiings aren't decided in the S15 or when the squad is selected. The proof is in the test pudding 

Moz, This year, no other S15 front row could dominate the Cheetah front row and kudos to Meyer for selecting the entire Cheetah front row.

Os du Randt has established himself again as the master when it gets to training of the forwards and in particular, the front row.

Adriaanse was never overshadowed by any S15 loosehead this year. Last year he was still in a growth phase and Coenie had to help out. In the meantime Coenie has also mastered 3 and is nowadays equally comfortable at 1 and 3. A true replacement for CJ and perhaps BJ as well.

Trevor Nyakane joined the Cheetahs last year and was initially completly overweight and unfit, but he got a few games to make up the numbers. He also grew quite repidly in 1 and since this year has become a more than useful team member in the Cheetahs.

All these positive developments gave Naka the luxury to start with his best front row in Coenie (1), Strauss and Adriaanse (3) and then later in the match Coenie replace Adriaanse with Trevor then slotting in at 1.

Spoony you seem to know your rugby, but your facts are fictional. Alberts gained 39 metes in 11 carries in that Bargie test.....best in the pack. And he matched Coetzee's tackle count. Coetzee a non sledgehammer gained a measly 7 metres. Do me a favour check your facts in future.

 Greetings Blikkies. The Cheetahs scrum has been excellent....but I would have preferred Herbst. Coenie is a natural bench player given he can go both sides. Hard to leave out the Beast from the starting team though. 

Moz, given how good Coenie is, why would you want to waste him on the bench. His neck has stood firm, he has been good in the scrums and outstanding in general play. Coenie has to start, we need him involved from the outset. He is one of our stars

Mozart stats can tell you anything depends on the question asked. So it does not tell you what really happened.

South Africa sent a flat line of forward runners promoting themselves to receive the ball and a deep line of backs to get the ball behind the forwards. This made it too obvious which group was getting the ball, and allowed defenders to smash the forward runners or slide off on second-man plays to cut down backs or, at worst, end up pushing the outside backs to the sideline where the SA wingers were always confronted with 2-3 Argentinian defenders. THat is what happened.

Predictable. Why do you keep on mentioning Coetzee? I did not say a word about him?

 I'm not saying ICoenie shouldn't start, but  that means tighthead....and I'm still not convinced that's his best side. Would you play him ahead of the Beast?

Mozart I will even play my grandma ahead of the Beast. At least she has technique and do not have a oversized heart due to getting jacked up 

 Spooky if you gain 40 metres at almost 4 metres a run....you aren't being cut in half. Alberts is a reliable hard yards man. Most of our opponents will be delighted if we leave him out. Besides which his occasional huge hits create valuable ball.. If he's fit, he is in my team..

And the Beast has arythmia

Mozart

Because you always tried to use stats when it fits your purpose and ignore them when it does not - and love to make generalized statements on players - I went through the stats of the tests last year insofar as Alberts is concerned and gave them elsewhere.   As per normal your facts are fictional at best,  especially the following remark:-

"You have your facts wrong Spoon it was after we dropped Coetzee and Daniels, and picked Alberts, Vermeulen and Louw that we went on a winning run last year. Power makes a difference in tests"

Alberts played in 10 tests last year and he was never picked to set things right.   Vermeulen replaced Spies - not Daniel who was in only one test.   Alberts were in al tests bar 2 necause of injury.  As per normal your selective usage os stats are legendary.   There are three issues here to illustrate that:-

*   Alberts ball carrying prowess is actually imaginary,   Against teams like Argentima and Scotland he makes an aeverage of 3,3 meters per carry.   Against teams like Australia and New Zeland his carrying is an average of 1,5 meter per carry.   That makes the argument that he is a strong ball carrier a figment of your imagination.

*   Another quaint argument raised by you eslewhere is that he is a good line-out player.   In 10 tests he won the balls 11 times in line-outs and lost one line-out whn the ball was thrown to where he was.   That is less than any other loosie did.

*  Alberts is defnitely one of the slowest loosies in international rugby.   Point is he does make some tackles around th fringes- but is too slow to get to most tackle points.   When he gets there he misses circa 20% of alll attempted tackles.

Based on a few incidents in matches in and prior to 2011  he has gained the reputation that he is a top loosie in respect of ball carrying, in line outs and in defence.   However, in checking out his performances in 2012 and also in the two games he played in this year - it is evident that he runs on reputation only - his actual performances are at best average - with a negative tendency in some respects.   Alberts was test material years ago - he definitely is not anymore,   Too inactive to be really a real contribution to forward play of the Springboks, 

By the way don't cherry pick stats -  look at stats for the whole year - not one test that might be favourable to your argument.  

Yes - the other teams would love us to keep Albert in the team - thy cn run circles around him.

Mozart

I said above that De Jongh does not deserve to be in the sqaud.   Do you still believ he is test material - must do since you left him out of your list of players upu regard as sub-par.   Bearing in mind his latest performances on test level and his atrocious defencive record in Super 15 - ohe should have topped your list.  Any comments? 

 Oom Maaik, Spoony referred to a specific game. I responded about that game. If I erred in that regard, you are welcome to carp. But don't change the question and then accuse me of being misleading. There's a good chap.  

As for de Jongh I hope you saw today why he has been selected ahead of your pick, de Allende. I'm afraid your man was pretty bad.

Mozart

The one-game specialist at it again.   Yesterdays game was played under terrible weater conditions and it was clear as daylight that the players were reluctant to pass too many slippery balls.   The Stormers were lucky De Jongh was not playing - his ball handling skills at best is questionable - and other yesterdays conditions would have been disastrous.

Weather conditions are a great leveller in game outcomes and with their backline perofrmance yesterday the Stormers were very lucky to win.   All of Jantjies, De Allende and De Villiers were poor and they obviously suffered as a result - so forget about that game as a guideline to performances.

As to De Jongh - why not admit he has a proven ailure record and forget that theory that he can perform on international level?   Admit that he is not anything worthwhile in tests and that he is evn questionable on Super 15 level.   Wonder why the Stormers manage to win games he is not in the team and lose themwhen he is around?    Ever thought about that one?

Dumbo.....Spoony raised the Bargieland game last 4N....that's the game to which I responded . You are so obsessed you turn even that into a discussion of the player who has twice shredded your Sardines in the last 8 months. That must really have hurt hey.....hahahahaha.