Stormers management FAIL.

If I were a Stormers fan I'd be worried about one thing. Management! The Stormers have been the best defensive side in the tournament for the last 3 years, or possible even longer, but their attack has gone from being reasonable, to arguably the worst in Super Rugby! Robbie Fleck, the backline coach, has failed misserably and action should've been taken long ago already to rectify this. Questions should also be asked of the whole management team for not Identifying this obvious weakness and addressing it ages ago. There is a very good chance that the stormers will lose out on a home semi-final or even a semi-final all together, because they have'nt been able to score tries and pick up vital bonus points. The problem with injured loose forwards is also massive, but that is down to bad luck, and they are not the only team in that boat, but the lack of meaningful attack, especially with the awesome calibre of back-line players they have, is unforgiveable! As a Bulls fan, I shudder to think of how strong the Stormers could have been if they had an attack that matched their defence, because thay would be running away with this tournament. They certainly have the players, they just lack the direction and the leadership, and in my opinion, that is an absolute sin!!

Heads out of bums please Stormers management! 

Fair comment bluebok, the backline simply has little flair. Neither Alistair, the former Bok backline coach, or Fleckie have too much of a clue. Too few physically dominant backline players plus little team work and creativity.

That is why I have said all along our hopes lie with the pack and that is why Burger and Vermuelen are essential to our cause.  If we dont dominate at forward we are sunk.

You will also notice what great crowds we get at Newlands and of course we have many corporates down here as well.

Yet we do not have the cash to keep certain players here etc and guys of the quality of Mallet and Rassie leave becasue they cant put up with the nonsense and interference. Was it necessary to lose all of Francois and Pieter Louw, Sadie and Engelbrecht, Hofman and Whitehead. Jaque Fourie was always going to leave for the R22 million Japanese offer.CJ also left but I am not sheding tears

That all reflects very badly on the guys running the show. The professional arm does well and is milked by the clubs who control matters is my take but I could be wrong.

But we are no out of it yet and the guys have shown great fighting spirit. We shall see.

And then we were also told, not too long ago, that Sadie, Engelbrecht, Hoffman and Whitehead were leftovers at the Stormers.......................

Ag man ou windpomp jy lieg! Waar het ek so se!!! Sadie I always regretted.

I am making a point about the collective looses. Man we should be buying the cream not losing players!!  Verstaan jy nou ou windpomp!

Please tell mean ou that his Bok team is crap. My source tells me it s the pink bulle plus one or two others! Glad to hear Alrec and werda appreciate the ref situation even if you dont!

Hahahhahahahahaha Beeno getting it right as usual and windpomp wearing the dunce's hat.

Jy is die donner wat besig is om te lieg ou Beenbal. Jy persoonlik het dit gese. LOL.

Explain this remark of yours:

"You will also notice what great crowds we get at Newlands and of course we have many corporates down here as well."

................ against this one by you:

"..................we do not have the cash to keep certain players here................"

Bear in mind that one of those corporates, Oasis, is one of the Sponsors of the Bulls. Makes you think, doesn't it? LOL

Eish ou windpomp monie baai dumb wees!!

I am lamenting that dispite our having great crowds and corparates to get sponsors from we don't have the cash to buy and keep our players. I also said I thought the reason was that the professional arm is milked by the clubs. I blame management fo rthsi.

The world is a confused place for ou windpomp! 

Ook ek het dit nie gese nie  - monie lieg nie asseblief windpomp!!!!! Wat wil jy Ma se!!

Ou Beenbal. Guess when and by who this was written:

************ says the Stormers will never win a trophy unless they address their attacking shortcomings and piss-poor excuse for a kicking game.

You almost had to feel sorry for the Stormers’ class of ******* They were forced to play *************** in one of the most hostile of sporting cauldrons, and asked to beat one of the best provincial outfits in history.

The loss to ******* highlighted a few perennial problems , but in many ways the 2010 season was a relative success for a franchise that hadn’t qualified for the play-offs since 2004. The coaching staff said all the right things after that defeat, and given the quality of that *************** side, the Cape side had good reason to hold their heads high.

That was until Western Province were hammered in the ******* Currie Cup final. Eight months later, the Stormers were comprehensively beaten in the *******************. There should be no talk of lessons learned, because it’s obvious the Stormers are not learning from the same old mistakes.

The layman as well as the more educated member of the rugby community has bemoaned the game plan of the Stormers. The strategy has centred around a dominant defensive system and a powerful pack of forwards, and even though they’ve struggled to score tries and record the necessary bonus points, the management has always used the motivation of winning as an excuse for a limited approach. When there has been criticism, they have pointed to the Stormers’ position on the Super Rugby log and claimed it was a sure sign that the Cape side were on the right track.

Despite me trying to hide the clues, there should still be a few to help you figure out more or less when it was written, without the help of Google, if you are awake.

Sorry windpomp your collection of trivia says more about you than it does about the Stormers!

Jean De Viliers said no Stormers backs deserved a spot in the Boks. Beeno points out their short comings. We are reasonanble honest folk. 

Show some respect to the SA Conference title holders. This sounds like a severe case of very sour grapes windpomp!

daveou I did not see the rest of the bulle /warts game as I deleted it in error.

Hence I have to take the view taken by various  journalists and fans who watched the the game and conclude on this evidence the bulle were poor and very fortunate to win. daveou seems very unrealiable as a witness. The odd man out, the fish swimming against the stream of reason and objectivity.

Pity bulle cant admit their short comings like the Mighty Stormers did.

Come on Beenbal. Don't be a pissie. Take a guess. When and by who was it written?

If I were to buy into this non sensical "debate" I would say that the Bulls should much composure coming from behind to secure a win whereas the Stormers were eina eina wishing full time. Then again winning ugly is part and parcel of the game and winning ugly sure as hell beats losing.

Please oaks all attempts to say at this point in time bulle are fantastic and Stormers useless when 1 point separates them on the log, and given the Stormers beat the bulle last time round, are doomed to fail.

Ducking and diving again. Nothing new.

Look, why does it always come down to a tollie size contest? Seriously though, both of you can sit back and relax, cos my willy is bigger than both of yours, so the contest is won....or so my wife tells me, but I suspect she is lying!!

Anyway, the article had nothing to do with the Bulls. How did we land up talking about them? The Stormers should be a better side than they are currently because of their coaches. Their strategy is also not the issue, the issue is the fact that they have an impotent backline. As for comparing the Bulls and the Stormers, they both have their weaknesses, and the reason they are seperated by a lone point is testimony to the fact that there is not much between them. My point is simply that if the Stormers where able to perform as there team sheats would suggest they should, then they would be 5 or 6 points clear of the Bulls...but they aren't and whose fault is that? 

I have no complaint with your point Blue  - about the fact our coaching staff and managment are not up to scratch.

I mentioned this stuff a few times already. You are correct. We have a long standing problem down here which is very unfortunate. Given the talent we have, particualry in the forwards, the future should look bright but I am very concerned. Much like the Boks should have been on top over the last 4 years but were not. Is that going to happen to us.  Will we fall apart without Rassie is my deep concern. Will the finances be adequate. Is the brain power there. I dont think it is.

Terrible at times to be a realist!

Alistair prove me wrong please!

Bluebok, your topic title is: Stormers management FAIL.

The article that I quoted is exactly about that. It was written almost a year ago, but it started off addressing an issue with the Stormers. The writers started his story with a game almost a year priot to when he wrote the article. Now if you do your calculations, you would note that he was refering to the 2010 Super 14 final, and the article was written in June 2011.

Incidentaly another article, by the same writer appeared on Sport 24 this morning. www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/Stormers-need-mindset-change-20120514 and two years down the line, it is the same issue.

That is what I was trying to indicate, but our two esteemed friends here decided to bring the Bulls into the discussion, because they would probably not have taken kindly if I told them that the Stormers still have the same issue they had two years ago. That being that they think that defence alone will win bring them a Suoer Rugby Title. To add insult to injury, they have this year decided to try "the kicking game" and they are not getting it right. At the end the previous weekend they were leading the pist for the most kicks in play for the competition. After this past weekend they have been passed by the Force and the Crusaders.

 I have to agree with Bluebok, good thread!!!

The Stormers simply have showed that they no longer possess the threat out back as they use to. If you look at all the attacking options they have, it is startling to think that they only managed 1 bonus point, the bulls may lose a few more but chuck in another four bonus points and they will remain on top. 

That said, I watched Sarries get outplayed over the weekend, they play a similar style to the stormers, defend, defend, defend. But when Leicester start to throw the ball around, they simply just didn't have the game to counter them and that is my biggest problem with the stormers. The get ahead and then just sit back and defend rather than to keep playing. 

The Crusaders showed how to beat them and come the knock outs, I'm afraid to admit that we will have another dissapointing season. Stormers simply don't know how to kill a game off at all.

I agree. When they have the talent they do in the back field and for whatever reason can barely, BARELY, score 2 tries a game, it has to fall on the coaching. Almost Half their tries come from forwards falling over the line as well. It's getting quite annoying.

On another note. That second half against the Cheetahs was the worst I've ever seen the Stormers play. Give credit to the Cheetahs, but the Stormers were brutal!

There is tha other question. Would you Fire a coaching staff that has won 9 out of their last ten games?

Sounds rather mad to me. What makes you think it is the coaches?

Maybe Dewalt kicks away too much possetion.

Maybe it is a direct result of the Gamelan they employ, a game plan that has clearly been sucessfull, if you look at the win loss ration. Hell if a bok team has won 9 out of their last 10 tests they would be hailed as hero's.

Just a thought.

@Ek, I would not fire the coaching staff. The problem is with that headless chicken, Fleckie. Allister is doing OK as the one at the helm. Their forwards are doing well under Proudfoot. Their defence is top-notch under Nienaber, but they have no attacking/try scoring ability whatsoever. That is thanks to Mr Fleck.

Ok Ek, I take your point, but if that is the case then the Stormers coaches are the ones to blame for their injury crisis in the loose forwards. If they are electing to give away position by kicking it away, as you suggested, then it is no surprise that they are defending for large portions of their games. We all know that defending takes much more of a toll on players than any other portion of the game, and because of that, the forwards, especially the loosies, will be making many more tackles which will innevitably result in injuries. So while I agree with you regarding winning is winning, and 9 out of 10 etc, their winning ways are going to come to an end soon, because they are so short on replacements that they are going to land up playing with varsity cup players...and then they will start losing.

Secondly, with the players in the Stormers backline, they should be running the ball, at least some of the time anyway. If the they are not attacking because they are innefective, well then it comes back to poor coaching. It is sort of like being Mike Tyson and being told you are not allowed allowed to throw a knockout punch. 

Lastly, the fact that the Stormers are not picking up bonus points may yet cost them a home semi, and then a good winning ratio will count for nothing. Look, the Stormers have done well, but they have more potential at their disposal than they are using, and that just makes no sense to me.  

Bluebok you could have a point here re defending for large portions of the game leading to more injuries - it has a logivcal ring about it. However I think that, a part from conditioning factors, these things just happen. Did you see the Carr injury for example. He was close to a ruck and slightly twisted his knee and that was that. Freakish actually.
 

The bulle, who attack more, have had Dewald Potgieter , Stegman and Jaque Potgieter out. Seems though that loosies generally speaking, get injured a lot.

I understand and yes it is a correct assumption from your side. However I just attempted to point out that their strategy is not neccecerily faulty, just a different oppinion. And yes as with every strtegy it has advantages and disadvantages, and they should face that adjust and get on with it.

The failure of the backline might be fleckie's fault, but then again it might not be, We can speculate. Maybe it is a case that as against the cheetahs last week the lineouts and scrums where so poor that there was no platform to play off.

Maybe it is Dewalt kicking away good attacking ball.

Maybe it is Jean not passing out wide.

There ae numberious things that can be the result.

And yes it is Fleckie and the rest of the staff to fix these problems, some of them take time, some of them you can fix in a week.

I was just pointing out that the full outcry regarding firing management is very much going overboard.

Beeno, I don't think the Bulls have all the answers and they have their own issues that need sorting out, consistent defense being one of them. I think that loosies in general are the players that have the greatest risk of being injured. So naturally all teams will have issues in that area. I was more pointing out that excesive deffence adds extra risk and may go some way to explaining the Stormers dilemma. As for Carr, that was probably just a freakish incident, and anyway, he only played a couple of games so the fatigue of over-defending wouldn't have played a role.

Ek, the problem with the Stormers defence has been worsening for a few years now and they should've picked it up and addressed it ages ago. Also, if Jean is not passing, or Dewalt is kicking away posession, and it is costing the team, then the coaches should've told them to stop doing it, as it is not effective. So weather the players are doing it of their own accord or because they were told to by their coaches, the problem still lies with the coach to rectify!

Just to add, if the coach (Back-line coach in this case) is unable to rectify "jean not passing" or "Dewalt kicking away good possession" then he is not an effective coach and should be removed. Thats my opinion, not the law.

Correctly Blue, If you see I said the same thing. problem is we are pointing out the obvious. And some guys are shouting for the coaches to be fired, fleckie included.

I think it is going overboard firing guys from a management team that is clearly not unsucsessfull. That was all i said.

Blue I did no ttake ittha tyouwer getting a tthe Stormes here and mentioned the bulle a sthey pla ya different game tha tis not all dense orientated like the Stormers.

yes loosies are probably more  at risk. I remember las tyea rthough we had a horrendous run re our flyhalves and centers. Waht no side can actually cope with is the loss of star players and repeated injuries in one position. The Stormes seem to specialise in the latter!

A for kicking away possession it was  surprising to read articles a while back that suggested that having possession was not they way to go. Sides with less possession were doing better. Crazy stuff!!

One exceptional case was against  Samoa where the Boks deliberately got rid of possession to prevent injuries arising from dangerous high tackles etc.!! Those islander teams are always trying to help out the abs! You know the abs!!  Hahahahahahaha

I think we'll have to agree to dissagree Ek, the last three years have seens a steady decline in the Stormers back-lines effectiveness, and they should act  accordingly to fix this obvious problem. The fact that the rest of the Stormers game is so strong is what is carrying the team, and that has led them to the position they now enjoy on the log. If they had the complete package (Not just an excellent defence) they would be miles ahead of the pack, not bogged down in the middle of it.

They are doing well, and I hope the continue to win...except against the Bulls, but they could've been in a league of their own.

Yeah Beeno, them danm islanders!! Ican still feel that tackle on Derick Hougard a few years back.

Actually the solution would not be to fire someone. The solution would be the same as what Jake white did in 2007.

Hire a short term Attack minded Backline specialist.

bluebok
Member
Posts: 81 RE: Stormers management FAIL.
May 17, 2012, 10:58:36

Yeah Beeno, them danm islanders!! Ican still feel that tackle on Derick Hougard a few years back.

LOL. I clearly remember that one. It was a massive tackle, but it actually came because of a hospital pass from Joost. He has acknowledged it a number of times when he was still a presenter on SuperRugby, and I cane even recall him apologising to Derick on air, one night.

wasn't that the tackle that gave the Chiropractor his nickname?

 Stormers vs Hurricanes 17h00 39 - 26

Bulls vs Sharks 19h00 18-13

Stormers vs Sharks 19h00 15-12

Bulls vs Blues 19h00 23-29

Stormers vs Blues 19h00 27-17

Bulls vs Cheetahs 17h00 51-19

Sharks vs Lions 17h00 32-20

Stormers vs Bulls 19h00 20-17

Bulls vs Reds 17h00 61-8

Cheetahs vs Stormers 19h00 16-14

Bulls vs Crusaders 17h00 32-30

Bulls vs Brumbies 19h00 36-34

Bulls vs Lions 19h00 32-18

A few examples. Do anyone know what Newlands look like this time of year? 19h00 Matches your playing with a wet ball. The played the Force just after a tropical storm. It is easy to be loud mouth about tries one team scores when they played in nice 17h00 natural light times up in Pretoria, Bloemfontein or Durban, The Sharks and Bulls will get the natural light as we all know who owns a share in all the franchises and in which 2 teams is their share the biggest. Its those 2 with the money Sharks and Bulls. Same guys behind their massive cash flow is the ones making the schedules as well. 

Then the Stormers did not have the luxury of facing a injury wrecked Reds team at in natural light to score a 5 pointer. They had to batlle almost all their home games on a wet Newlands under floodlights in a time where its raining as well. That same wet Newlands the Bulls and Sharks struggled to score tries. 

Forcing teams into mistakes and taking available opportunities is nothing to do with management nor any problems. They take the points when offered.

Stormers also do not have the luxury of huge depth like the Bulls. We do not have the money to stop them from buying almost every promising youngster in the Cape and let them sit on a bench. Supersport looks after the Bulls and Sharks. Not the rest....

There are indeed serious problems with the Stormer Management structure.   They are not really up to standard - because they let young and promising players like Sadie and Engelbreacht go - resulting in a very average center situation.   That the buyers - the Bulls have mucked up with both Sadie and J J Engelbrecht is no consolation either - because from very promising players - the Bulls have allowed those two to stagnate.

The Stormers have a problem - line breaks must be made by players 9,10 and 12 - hence the problem with backline play.   I think that Pieterse and Aplon is exceptional players and so is Habana - but they do not get chances since De Jongh is not really strong enough on attack and often lose the ball when tackled - I think he is far too light to play at center - fast but not strong enough.   

Fleck is actually a good coach - he has been an oyutatsnding back line player and knows what back line play entails - but is the combination used in fact strong enough to allow for attacking rugby by the back line unit as a whole?  Is high kick and charge the best method to enhance back line play - I doubt it very much - but that is the atndard play of the Bulls - pink or otherwise - and there is not a whisper of criticism about that method in their case.

Be it as it may - I share the viewpoints on this issue - something drastic needs to be done otherwise the Stormers can come short in the final stages of Super 15.    they are so far ahead of some of the other teams that they would be in the play-offs - but they may not get a home semi.

The Stormers management fail in the finance arena hence loss of some players. Apparently the professional arem makes money but is milked by the clubs who run the show.

From a playing perspective the Stormers have not convinced lately. The backline does not seem to have the necessary clout. Consider that 4 players are undersized with only Jean, Habana and Grant about par for the course. As Mike noted we then kick our ball away in an ineffective manner. Moz, highlighted the difference in quality between  what Berrick Barnes dishes up and what we delivered in respect oftactical kicking.

To me the only hope we have had of winning is our pack at full strength. The loss of Schalk and Duane is huge and then we have Kostner and Carr also crocked.  Close wins are just that and can easily reverse.

Its hang on till Schalk gets back and hopefully Vermuelen (Kostner etc) That kid kitshoff needs a rest. No need to play him into the ground. Etzebeth and Elstadt also. Tough to manage all this.

Sinclair has disappointed so far he does not seem to be much of an althlete.

Nevertheless we sit at the top of the log for now so one must keep the faith. Hard away games against the sharks and bulle. Oh for a 5 pointer or two.