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'Template rugby' is poison for SA; Planet Rugby

Started by Just_win19 REPLIES583 VIEWS· 13 Jul 2014, 21:18
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Jul 2014, 21:18
#1
13 Jul 2014, 21:18#1

Winning the 2007 Rugby World Cup was a momentous occasion for Springboks but it has done little for the development of the way rugby is played in South Africa.

I believe that the so-called 'Jake White template' has been detrimental to South African rugby on a number of levels.

Let me start by saying that I can't fault White's tactics in 2007. Given the weapons at his disposal, the approach he adopted was spot on.The efficacy of this approach (when correctly executed) is not in question. My aim here is rather point to the consequences of the mindset that has become enrooted in SA rugby because of it's (limited) success.

What concerns me is that the territorially-based and defence-orientated approach employed back then has been widely adopted in the Republic and in many quarters is still held up as a blueprint for future success.

From a coaching perspective, it's not difficult to see why this methodology is popular. Giant men imposing themselves with hard, straight running and big hits have always been the hallmarks of the South African style.

The combination of a dominant line-out, an accurate box-kicking scrum-half, reliable goal-kickers that could find the target from long range and a rock-solid defence that pressurised the opposition into mistakes made for a gameplan that was always going to be hard to stop. It still is.

For some time now, South African teams at both national and Super Rugby level have been trying to rekindle the glory years of domination between 2007 and 2010 when Heyneke Meyer's Bulls - playing a brand of rugby not wholly dissimilar to White's Boks - and John Smit's national team of 2009 were also winning silverware.

Yet, in many ways, SA has been going backwards ever since. Sharks fans will look at the Super Rugby table and tell me I'm crazy, but anyone who has watched South African derbies from a neutral perspective in recent years - and the last two weekends of Super Rugby are prime examples - will tell you that there is either a prevalent rugby mentality that suffocates positive endeavour or there is a serious lack of skills.

I would say it's a little bit of both, and they feed each other, in a vicious circle. The less a gameplan requires handling skills, the less those skills are developed. And as skill levels drop, so playing 'heads-up' rugby becomes less of an option. Coaches at schools imitate teams at the top. Round and round we go in a downward spiral.

At the centre of the circle you'll find South Africa's obsession with beating the All Blacks and winning the World Cup. Beyond those two things, as far as rugby is concerned, not much else really matters.

When 2007 is held up as an example of a winning strategy, it is often conveniently forgotten that success came without having to face New Zealand (thanks, France). The 2007 hangover was further ingrained in 2009 when Joe Rokocoko and Sitiveni Sivivatu were found wanting under the high ball in the Tri-Nations.

Let me pause for a minute to note that, although the process has been slow, Meyer is making a genuine effort to bring a more balanced, more attractive style to the national set up, but the playing resources at his disposal limit the potential for progress. Without Willie le Roux, the Bok attack would be pretty blunt.

There is a widespread belief - championed in the mainstream media - that since it's impossible to beat the Kiwis at their own game, South African teams should "play to their strengths". To that end, the Sharks' brave 14-man win in Christchurch earlier this year was hailed by prominent writers as evidence of how to beat New Zealand's best (ignoring, of course, how poor the Crusaders' execution was that day).

I don't want to delve any deeper into the merits and limitations of the White-type gameplan because its an argument that could go on for days. As mentioned, the long-term consequences of this approach are my concern.

Peter de Villiers was labelled a lunatic when he suggested that the South African teams needed to change the way they play. I don't think PDV was a particularly good coach and his press conference antics ensured he left the Bok job with very little credibility, but he was correct when he said - right at the start of his tenure - that South African players needed to learn to play what was if front of them, to make decisions beyond a very narrowly-defined, predetermined script.

It was naive of P-Divvy to believe he could change the way the Springboks played overnight. In the end, he had rather little influence on the style of his team as they largely reverted back what they were doing before. And many of the local franchises, provinces, clubs and schools continued to followed suit. It was a fork in the road for the game in South Africa. The wrong path was chosen.

Crux of the strategy used by most South African teams is to cash in on an opponents' mistakes and to only 'have a crack' once in the opposition 22. Beyond the obvious flaw of coming unstuck when teams doesn't succumb to your pressure, it's an approach that offers very little room for an attacking mindset where opportunities are created. The game is planned to a template. Kick from here, run from here, maul from here, etc, etc.

The result is we have a generation of players who are near-incapable of thinking on their feet. And those who can, are seldom allowed to. The Stormers have managed to prove PDV's point perfectly. I could only shake my head in disbelief earlier this year as I sat listening to Duane Vermeulen explain how his team were still kicking for territory when they had a four-man overlap because they had been taught, for years, that "you don't play rugby in your own half."

To his credit, former White assistant coach Allister Coetzee has seen the light and realised that an approach that yielded exactly one try-bonus point in the previous two years was a recipe for frustrating fans, not winning trophies, and has admitted that a change of culture is required. Unfortunately, old habits die hard and I struggle to see how that culture will evolve sufficiently if the figurehead that instilled it is still at the helm.

John Smit developed a habit of batting away criticism of his Bok team's style by saying they weren't playing 'boring rugby' but 'winning rugby.' Exactly how much was won is a debate for another day, but the off-field consequences of failing to entertain the paying public are very real.

I chatted to a colleague from the north of England (i.e. a guy who has seen his fair share of 'slow' rugby) and his reaction to the Stormers v Sharks game at Kings Park at the end of May was "I don't understand how anyone could possible want to pay to see that."

It's little wonder viewer numbers are on the decline, especially in Australia. Do we need to seek new markets in places like Singapore, or is a better product for the local audience required?

Super Rugby is designed to reward positive endeavour via the bonus-point system. At the time of writing, SA teams had produced 10 try bonus points in 2014 compared to 25 in the Kiwi Conference and 19 in Australia. Only the Bulls and the lowly Lions have scored fewer tries than White's Sharks have this year.

It's obviously too simply to only blame a certain type of gameplan for the dearth of skills. The crisis in South Africa's education system where male teachers, and by extension rugby coaches, are becoming increasingly rare severely hampers the development of talented players at grassroots level.

When I spoke to Meyer about the issue in the early days of his Bok tenure, he was also quick to highlight the nonexistence of Rugby League in South Africa. Unlike Down Under, kids in South Africa do not have the same exposure to the 'culture of offloading' in their formative years.

But that does not mean South Africa lacks raw talent.

Jacques Potgieter is a perfect example of a wasted talent. The former Bulls flank has been a revelation for the Waratahs, where instead of simply seeking contact to set a target, he looks to run into space. Wynand Olivier, once a favourite object of derision for fans, is relishing life in Montpellier, where he, François Trinh-Duc and Anthony Tuitavake are tearing up midfields across France.

The clean break stats for Super Rugby this year paint a dire picture, with three South African teams at the bottom the charts. Not a single SA side is to be found in the top six of the offload numbers.

Imagine if Gio Aplon was given a decent platform to use his skill. How good would Francois Hougaard be if he could play for the Hurricanes? Is Frans Steyn's true potential ever going to be realised? What will happen to Handré Pollard? Will his creative instincts be eroded in Pretoria in the fashion that Jan Serfontein is slowing being turned into another one-dimensional Bulls 12?

South Africa is blessed with gene pool that produces plenty of massive men. But an approach to rugby based purely on physicality is a recipe to fall short of the target of world domination. Who would you rather have in your side? A 100kg Brad Barritt or a 85kg Matt Giteau?

South Africa has significantly larger player numbers and greater financial resources than New Zealand. In the professional era, there should be no reason why the SA teams should continue to play second fiddle to their old rivals.

By no means am I suggesting that Meyer suddenly revolutionise the way the Boks play as an example to the country - that would be suicide. But if South African teams are ever going to become the dominant force in world rugby, coaches in the Republic, at every level, need to stop asking themselves 'how are we going to beat the All Blacks' or 'how are we going to win this weekend'.

Instead, they must start asking 'how are we going to play better rugby.'

by Ross Hastie

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Jul 2014, 21:23
#2
13 Jul 2014, 21:23#2
I agree with this article. 
See related article: Sharks game plan for finals
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
13 Jul 2014, 21:28
#3
13 Jul 2014, 21:28#3
So do I but not in the context of hidden agendas...what's good for the gander is not necessary good for the goose at least not in team strategy. I don't believe this template article at least not in context, just Jake throwing in a red herring.

Jake's a bit of a snake and too clever for cheap shots...lolz
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:15
#4
13 Jul 2014, 23:15#4
 The twit has no clue. I have outined what the problems are. This is so superficial its a laugh."South Africa has significantly larger player numbers and greater financial resources than New Zealand"
Can you be more oblivious of what is going on?????
Simply cant take the twit seriously. 
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
14 Jul 2014, 01:58
#5
14 Jul 2014, 01:58#5

 Hasbeeno, latest figures for playing numbers of senior males:

 

SA       113,174

NZ         27726

 

So I think he's spot on! We have less than 25% of your numbers but have still owned your arses for the last 22 years!!

No attempts at pathetic comebacks please.....just accept your fate.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
14 Jul 2014, 03:04
#6
14 Jul 2014, 03:04#6
Most SA teams depend on the forwards to beat the opposition into submission, or for the backs to feed on turnovers or opposition mistakes. Their is no plan B, and if our teams get less than 50% of possession against good teams then their is problems.
Sometimes the conservative game is the right way to close down space, others it requires more expansive play by the backs. Many of the SuperXV backline players from South Africa lack basic passing ability and the ability to run lines where supporting runners can get into space. So when players do go wide the reward is often conceding a turnover. The crash ball cancer then sets in. 
The SA forwards would be even more effective if the backs were more unpredictable as their would need to be more cover defense out wide, and this would make more space for the forwards. 
It is obvious to everyone but the coaching is just to conservative and it stifles the development of skills.
On of the main problems though is that many of South Africa's most skilled players are small. If we put a whole backline of skilled players on the pitch they would be too small. 
This is where New Zealand have an edge with the pacific Island descendants because they are big but also skillful.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jul 2014, 07:49
#7
14 Jul 2014, 07:49#7
 There is a serious problem in SA rugby.  The template of strong and more than adequate Tight 5 performances is fine 0- but that iws where the calue of the template ends.
For the rest the player talent is coached out of them and the playing style is so one-dimensional that it makes SA the laughing stock of world rugby.
Plain things are there for all to see -
*   SA plays clueless half backs with no idea about game variation and a chronic inability to read games properly - they are with rare exceptions robotic and must be told hat to do in advance;
*    Ball handling skills of SA players are pathetic compared to other players on international level;
*    backline usage is limited as a result of poor skills and the ability to read games and play skillful games - the only exception here is really Willie le Roux who was selected by accident by Meyer - and is now loudly lauded by everyone. .
Instead of enhancing the natural skills of players - our coaches try their utmost to coach by force skills out of players.   Naturally skilled players are not allowed to play according to their natural skills and then becomes as clueless as the rest.





JE
JeromeVClub Pro492 posts
14 Jul 2014, 13:22
#8
14 Jul 2014, 13:22#8
 For the most part I agree with the article although some of the points that were made is nothing new and has already been mentioned a lot and discussed before the article was made by Ross Hastie.

We so often hear the issue of the territorially-based and defensive-orientated approach and other methods being the main problem in SA Rugby, but in reality the main concern is Meyers personal preference in players he selects in the team. The selections are not based on potential, current form or good discipline, it is clearly based on experience of springbok caps and who is a fan favourite. What made the springbok team in 2007 world cup great was not only the game plan method, it was the discipline going in to the game was important but now that is no longer the case with the current springbok team. Now we have players who are not as disciplined and don't have a better understanding as to how the game should be played by the laws.

If Jake White was the coach surely Matfeild, Burger, De Villiers, and Jannie Du Plessis wouldn't be in the team, he would rather turn to the players that are in form and have potential to develop. We have so many talented players in our youth, the problem is some of them don't get the opportunity to start.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jul 2014, 14:00
#9
14 Jul 2014, 14:00#9
 JeromeV
I agree with you about the Meyer preference selections, but would add another two names to your list and those are Alberts and Morne Steyn.   We need proper loosies - not the ones that cannot keep up with the speed of games and  think Morne is far too robotic to be of any real use as a flyhalf.  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
14 Jul 2014, 14:20
#10
14 Jul 2014, 14:20#10
 "We have so many talented players in our youth, the problem is some of them don't get the opportunity to start."

OK. Here we go again.


The players that were capped "under" HM:
  1. 831    Marcell Coetzee     09-Jun-12    England
  2. 832    Juandré Kruger     09-Jun-12    England (He was not prefered but had to fill in for sister Bekker who was injured once again.)
  3. 833    Eben Etzebeth     09-Jun-12    England (injured)
  4. 834    Jacques Potgieter     23-Jun-12    England (Everybody on here said that he was crap but he was selected at the start of HM's tenure when Schalk Burger was injured and after a decent season for the Bulls - unfortunately. Had he still played for the Kings, 50%+ of the people who were pissed off over his inclusion would not have had much of an issue)
  5. 835    Patric Cilliers     18-Aug-12    Argentina
  6. 836    JJ Engelbrecht     18-Aug-12    Argentina
  7. 837    Craig Burden        
  8. 838    Jano Vermaak     08-Jun-13    Italy (Gone but he was not crap either)
  9. 839    Johan Goosen     08-Sep-12    Australia. (He is busy removing himself as a contender)
  10. 840    Duane Vermeulen     08-Sep-12    Australia
  11. 841    Frans Malherbe     09-Nov-13    Wales
  12. 842    Jaco Taute     29-Sep-12    Australia
  13. 843    Arno Botha     08-Jun-13    Italy (Injured)
  14. 844    Lionel Mapoe (Who should he have replaced in the last series?)       
  15. 845    Raymond Rhule (Ditto Mapoe)       
  16. 846    Franco van der Merwe  (Was included due to injuries, IIRC)      
  17. 847    JC Janse van Rensburg        
  18. 848    Willie le Roux     08-Jun-13    Italy
  19. 849    Jan Serfontein     08-Jun-13    Italy
  20. 850    Trevor Nyakane     08-Jun-13    Italy
  21. 851    Siya Kolisi     15-Jun-13    Scotland
  22. 852    Piet van Zyl     15-Jun-13    Scotland (He hasn't featured in the Bulls starting line-up and was injured for long as well, IIRC)
  23. 853    Lourens Adriaanse     23-Nov-13    France
  24. 854    Pieter-Steph du Toit     09-Nov-13    Wales(Injured)
  25. 855    Cornal Hendricks     14-Jun-14    Wales
  26. 856    Lood de Jager     14-Jun-14    Wales
  27. 857    Handré Pollard     28-Jun-14    Scotland
  28. 858    Marcel van der Merwe     28-Jun-14    Scotland
  29. 859    Oupa Mohojé     28-Jun-14    Scotland
  30. 860    Stephan Lewies     28-Jun-14    Scotland
  31. 861    Marnitz Boshoff     28-Jun-14    Scotland


That is 31 new players, most of them youngsters, that he brought in in two and a half seasons.


Twakkies brought 24 new caps  over his entire 4 year tenure. Amongst them were jokes like Earl Rose and Davon Raubenheimer. He also had his fair share of "geriatrics".


Jake White brought 36 new caps over his entire 4 year tenure and even he had his fair share of jokes, i.e. Eddie Andrews, Albert vd Berg, Solly Tiybilika and Hilton Lobberts. He also brought back a "geriatric" or two, i.e. Os du Randt and Percy.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Jul 2014, 15:06
#11
14 Jul 2014, 15:06#11
 Ceradyne
You mentioned 31 players - but left out most of the Bulls players he used on the ebnch in 2012,.  I can remember Werner Kruger and Greyling for example to name two of those.
Now lets look at the 31 players mentioned by you:-
Jacques Potgieter - a talented player that was used once - because of injury of useless Alberts - now playing for the Waratahs, where he learned more in one season about rugby than he did when playing for the Bulls.
Patrick Cilliers -   Another injury induced change.  Never really up to standard and he is out of contention now
JJ Engelbrecht  -  A poor selection baserd only on his Bulls contract
Craig Burden - Another injury induced change.  Never really up to standard and he is out of contention now
Johan Goosen - Meyer was forced to bring him in, becasue Morne Steyn was so piss-poor in 2012.  Talking about the Stade Franmcais bench player - being laying himself out of contention?
Jaco Taute - Poor selection of a full back to play at 13.
Lionel Mapoe - Jordaan is streets ahead of that one 
I have more to do than to sit and deal with individual players.  Nearly all players came on board as a result of injuries or because Meyer could not select his favoured foregn players.  Had nothing to do with discovery of new talent whatsoever.  
In fact the rare exceptions like Etzebeth and Le Roux is vastly over-shadowed by his selection of players he is familiar with, hasbeens and other flops.   



JE
JeromeVClub Pro492 posts
14 Jul 2014, 15:59
#12
14 Jul 2014, 15:59#12

Ceradyne

"We have so many talented players in our youth, the problem is some of them don't get the opportunity to start."

I stated "Talented" A lot of the players that you mentioned in your list are not actually talented players in my opinion, you need to acknowledge the fact that my phrase is true instead of disapproving it. There are many people that agree with my phrase in other discussions. 

Players in your list 
Juandré Kruger - Age 28
Jacques Potgieter - Age 28
Patric Cilliers - Age 27
Craig Burden - Age 29
Jano Vermaak - Age 29
Duane Vermeulen - Age 28
Franco van der Merwe - Age 31
JC Janse van Rensburg - Age 28

I wouldn't consider them to be in the category of talented young players in the youth, they are over 25+ Also you have Marnitz Boshoff in your list, he did not start yet, he came on off the bench. In fact the young players were part of the setup but came on off the bench, they don't start very often, especially in the RC which is a problem. There are other young players in Super 15 that people are sleeping on, they need to get the opportunity to start.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
14 Jul 2014, 16:00
#13
14 Jul 2014, 16:00#13
mike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11726 RE: 'Template rugby' is poison for SA; Planet Rugby
July 14, 2014, 13:06:34  Ceradyne
You mentioned 31 players - but left out most of the Bulls players he used on the ebnch in 2012,.  I can remember Werner Kruger and Greyling for example to name two of those. I was going to give you the answer but decided: "Fuck you". You were stupid enough to make the remark, you can fry in it. I will give you a clue though. Check on when those two made their début.

Now lets look at the 31 players mentioned by you:-
Jacques Potgieter - a talented player that was used once - because of injury of useless Alberts - now playing for the Waratahs, where he learned more in one season about rugby than he did when playing for the Bulls. Was he selected by Meyer, yes or no? Who should  have been selected in his place?

Patrick Cilliers -   Another injury induced change.  Never really up to standard and he is out of contention now Was he selected by Meyer, yes or no? Who should  have been selected in his place?
JJ Engelbrecht  -  A poor selection baserd only on his Bulls contract. Crap. He deserved his place and proved it at first and then for some reason faded. Shit happens. Look at what happened to Morne in the same  year.

Craig Burden - Another injury induced change.  Never really up to standard and he is out of contention now. I don't agree. Burden is a fine hooker. Just lower down in the pecking order behind Bismarck and Strauss. My opinion and my right to say so.

Johan Goosen - Meyer was forced to bring him in, becasue Morne Steyn was so piss-poor in 2012.  Talking about the Stade Franmcais bench player - being laying himself out of contention? So, are you saying that Glaasen should not have been selected? If not, who else? Jantjies? In addition, Glaasen would have been selected right from the start, had he not been injured.......again. That is no secret. Never has been. You saying that he was a forced inclusionhas to count amongst biggest loads of bullshit that you have posted.

Jaco Taute - Poor selection of a full back to play at 13. Your opinion, but he was one of the players favoured by the supporters. Of course, when he flopped, none of those  who favoured him would have admitted it.

Lionel Mapoe - Jordaan is streets ahead of that one Your opinion once again and Jordaan wasn't in the picture/injured at the time.

I have more to do than to sit and deal with individual players.  Nearly all players came on board as a result of injuries or because Meyer could not select his favoured foregn players.  Had nothing to do with discovery of new talent whatsoever.  Kaaaaak man. You are anti-HM, anti-MS, anti-Alberts, anti-Springboks, anti-FS, anti-everything. You are a lousy fucking traitor, you.

In fact the rare exceptions like Etzebeth and Le Roux is vastly over-shadowed by his selection of players he is familiar with, hasbeens and other flops.   



CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
14 Jul 2014, 16:06
#14
14 Jul 2014, 16:06#14
 "I stated "Talented" A lot of the players that you mentioned in your list are not actually talented players in my opinion, you need to acknowledge the fact that my phrase is true instead of disapproving it."

There you go. You said it, and I have never denied you the right to voice it. Whether it is true is  another matter altogether. To tell  me that I need to acknowledge it as being true, smacks of arrogance. Are you saying that, despite the fact that I am not denying you the right to your opinion, you are not going to afford me the same privilege?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Jul 2014, 21:06
#15
14 Jul 2014, 21:06#15
 As if our style of play were the biggest problem. Bwahhahahahahaha  what a load of bull.
At Super 15 level there is a nice balance between attack and defence in most Super 15 sides. Boks scoring plenty ofd tries. 
The biggest reason we have not done better at Super 15 level  was horrendous injuries suffered by Stormers and the 2 years of mass player exodus from the Bull who nevertheless finished 8 was it.
We may, as the loonie moooooo la says, produce a lot of rugby players (mortethan wee nz) but the number of elite players overseas is huge. We also do not import players from the pacific islands en masse as nz does.
Again the rand at over 18 to the pound is a far bigger problem than our style of play.
We then have to contend with no central contracting system which means to players are palyed into the ground.
We also have too many provinces. 
We have a degree of quota selections going on both in players and coaches.
The we have had to suffer at the hands of bent down under refs. Cannot underestimate effect of this on log standings. 
But this oak sums up all our woes in the style we play.
What a shallow view of things.
The amazing thing is that provided some key players come back and Meyer gets his selections right we could still win the RC. No other country in the world could run their affairs as abysmally as us and be even vaguely competitive.
Bulls and Stormers remain strong franchises. Bulle think they may have found the way to slow down the player drain. Cheetas are a problem ONLY because of finances.Lions could be on the mend - we shall see what players they retain.
One thing for certain, given the mass player drain a 6th franchise is not what was needed. It's not what the Super 15 comp needed either.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Jul 2014, 21:39
#16
14 Jul 2014, 21:39#16
Beeno: you are right of course, style of play is only one of the  many problems SA rugby faces.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Jul 2014, 21:41
#17
14 Jul 2014, 21:41#17
 Hi there Jw my good friend. I like that right of course. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Jul 2014, 22:32
#18
14 Jul 2014, 22:32#18
Hi Beeno, as usual posters on this site only read half of what is written by other posters & even that half they filter through their biases. I wonder how CleverMike & Moz doing 
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
15 Jul 2014, 00:09
#19
15 Jul 2014, 00:09#19
 Hasbeeno, I asked you for no pathetic comebacks and this is what you offer:
Stormers' injuriesNo central contractingQuotasNZ importing Island players (90% of whom are born in NZ so please look up the meaning of "import"in your Oxford dictionary Hasbeeno!Bent Down Under refs blah blah blah etc etc....Same old chestnuts being regurgitated.....
And you don't have a nice balance between attack and defence in the S15. Bonus point wins for the teams this year are as stated above:SA  10OZ  19NZ  25
Case closed.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2014, 01:00
#20
15 Jul 2014, 01:00#20
South Africa scored more tries than any other team, but NZ....but we had the hardest pool. Habana had the most tries. Our QF and SF opponents were vanquished with running rugby...as was England in the Pools.
We played it safe in the final, but so did NZ in 2011. 
So I'm afraid this is largely rubbish
— END OF THREAD —

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