Thank heavens fans on selectors...

If the cognoscenti on this Board had their way:

Kirchner would be the fullback

Mvovo would be the wing

Olivier would be back, jean would be out

Poor Lambie would be moved back to flyhalf, or Jantjies will be fully potty trained and take over...Morne would be axed

Bismarck would be deep sixed and Chilli selected

The two fatties Greyling and Kruger would be challenging

Bekker would never play for the Boks

Schalk wouldn't make it

And Strauss would be our captain.

I have often wondered how these opinions are formed. But I can find no logic that gets me to these places. To me it's all about performance on the field.

So what I see in Kirchner, Olivier, Mvovo and Kruger are guys who have failed at test level. Guys who fail early almost never succeed. Hell the Saders wings had Mvovo for breakfast last year....he just wouldn't commit to the contact.

I see in Chilli, Strauss and Greyling ordinary physical talents. For example Jannie not a mega scrummager had Greyling's number last weekend, even though he was disadvantaged by a poor Sharks scrum.

And in Jean, Schalk  and Bismarck I see our best back and two of our three best forwards as recently as the RWC QF. What these other cognoscenti see, beats me.

And what of Fourie? What you saw in Jean was one flash-in-the-pan game against an equally mediocre opposite number. I rated Bismarck as an impact player, and that's as good as it has ever been with him. As for Bekker? There has been nothing at test level. What impact has he had as a 4 or a 5? It has been noticable how much we lost whenever Peter brought him on from the bench. Schalk I rate as a player, but you over-estimate him; which is an about-turn on your long help previous view that he was finished!

I have never said Schalk was finished......you must have me confused with somebody like Dave. There hasn't been a Bok team selected since 2003 I would not have picked Schalk for...if available. In the mean time guys like Dave have mooned for Watson, Deysel and now Potgieter. Give me a fit Schalk any day.

As for Jean's RWC QF performance you conveniently write it off because he played against McCabe, who parenthetically was selected for his tackling. But in the run that burst Lambie free he lined up against and beat Ashley Cooper. He was the most dangerous back on the field, bar none. I can't accept your  qualifications.

As for Bekker, he is a very talented player, and, when fit, one of the top five locks playing the game. You ask what he has done? Well go back to 2010 and look at Schalk's try against NZ, and Bekker's role in that try. He certainly had Victor's respect, and I have never seen him bested in the lineouts. His game out wide, running and tackling is highly athletic.

It's all very well not to rate a player, but when that player has a good game, you need to show some flexibility methinks.

I credited Jean for his game, but you use that one game to create the impression that Jean had a better 2011 than he really did. That's the problem I have. In fact, in another thread here I said that I don't think Frans would have changed the Aus loss as Jean already did as much damage as could be done. That's as flexible as I can be under the circumstances of his other very poor showings.

Olivier is a carthorse, he does ok for the Bulls but doesn't cut it as a Bok. Mvovo is no flier, still have no reason to believe him the new Habana, Jantjies is a step in the right direction but I don't  value him more than Morne. Kirchner is like a chook with his head cut off....all of them will do well at CC level but  none of them will cut it at test level.

Mostly spot on Moz but a few grey areas like Lambie at flyhalf. He could play there but where do we need him most. Its how to get the best out of our resources that matters .

The cognoscenti (now theres a fine word!) have some weird ideas for sure. Jean was superb in the WC. Schalk SA player of the Year, Bekker Super 14 player of the year in 2010 yet still getting trashed even then. Bismark has been widely hailed as the best in the world!

There even are cogs who think matfield is a lock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a 107 kg stringbean lighty who spent his days in the backline or leaning on the rucks far from contact. He then makes a try saving tackle n opposition back in the WC final 2007 - simply because he had been living in the backline rather than playing as a lock and he is the mostest!  No we all have our blind spots - some more so than others. Hahahahahahahahahahaha I see my expertise is badly needed at times!

Kirchner lacks a rugby brain. Man when will he learn to pass a ball instead of always dying with it. Come on Ludeke straighten the guy out. Mvovo looked a bit more physical against the bulle, I thought, so maybe he will show more this season. There is still some hope for Greyling but none for Kruger bokwise. Ditto stegsies and potty.

Lets be honest the bulle fans always tend to overate their players! In their eyes theye are all either legends or legends in the making.  Hahahahahhahaha you have to love da bulle  oaks! Some were tryinng to get Schalk dropped when he was made IRB international player of the year. Calling them one eyed would be a terible understatement.

Now I just hope ou windpomp doesn't arrive with more dubious barny type stats to "prove" the contrary!!!

 Wrong Moz again this fan would have the following side:

15. Lambie 14. JP 13. Taute 12. Frans 11. Mvovo 10. Jantjies 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Mujati 4. Flip 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. J. Strauss(c) 8. Spies 16. Pienaar 17. Goosen 18. Sadie 19. Coenie 20. Chiliboy 21. Etzebeth 22. Schalk

So no Kirchner, Olivier, Jean, Greyling or W.Kruger. Morne would be the easiest for me to discard. Schalk would still be pushing for my starting side, but for me Josh Strauss offers more and cracks the nod for now.

None of the players you bang on about would even make my A side, which would look something like:

15. Ludik 14. JJ. Engelbrecht 13. Pat Howard 12. F.Venter 11. v/d Heever 10. Morne 9. Vermaak 1. M.v/d Merwe 2. A.Strauss (c) 3. R.de Klerk 4. Roodt 5. Elstadt 6. Daniel 7.Coetzee 8. Vermeulen 16. Hoffmann 17. S. Ebershohn 18. JP du Plessis 19. Kirchoff 20. D.Fourie 21. Q.Roux 22. Kolisi

Mujati is still an unknown quantity Dave. A bench spot is worth a shot as he has definietly improved in England. Jantjies won't mesh well with Hougaard. Neither of the two are able to settle down and control the game; hence we end up like Australia with two glory boys. But with our 9 being better than our 10. Morne retained.

I am however impressed to see you yield to logic and place Lambie in his only good position, likewise Frans at 12. Taute is questionable though. Strauss will be badly exposed.
 

I can't be bothered with B teams. But in your A team......let me help.

* Taute has a long way to go before being an international 13. Effort ceases to be a differentiator at test level.

* Mvovo has the contact problem....hangs off good wings. The Crusaders carved him up....as will the NZ/Aussie test wings.

** Jantjies needs more field generalship than a few chip kicks. A good attacking opponent will anticipate and gobble up those short flat kicks. He needs experience.

* Moojati was shown up in the Heineken final, and subbed early. He will do zilch against SH props and his lack of stamina will hurt.

*Strauss is slow, and a poor lateral defender.....hell WP Nel stepped him with ease to score.

*Spies these days never beats a tackle.....and hardly ever makes an open field tackle. He is a lineout option. That's not enough if you look at the impact of the Aussie/NZ 8s.

*Coenie would get worked by an NH test prop, let alone an SH one.

*Strauss is way more solid than Chilli.

 Look der Aristokat, get this into your head - Morne would never make my side - ever - I dont select average player who's only skill is kicking for poles.

Mujati has more than proved himself despite Moz's complete bullshit about his performance in that final. The same final Moz was exposed for the complete rubbish he came up with. Mujati and Tongawera were huge for Saints in that final dominating 90% of the scrums in a big way. The only time Moz had Mujati struggling against Heinke was when the Saints had 7 men in their scrum - a factor Moz keeps neglecting - I just wonder why???Mujati is the best tighthead in the game. Why on earth would I bench him and play Jannie ahead of him, when Mujati is better.

Well Moz given you dont rate Fourie and you do rate Adi, I think any of your takes on an outside centre needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, hell you even want Habana there. Taute is very much more than effort - he has skill, speed, power, swerve and good feet. Let me guess you would play past it Jean at 13 - ouch.

Nothing wrong with Mvovo at all. I recall that Saders game and your take on him hanging off was complete rubbish.

Jantjies proved his worth last CC when he came of age - you want to judge him on some chip kicks - go figure.

Your take on Mujati is fabrication bordering on lies

Strauss is as quick as Schalk, Alberts, Deysel and the likes - I'd put my house on that.

Spies is by far our best 8 and one of the best in the game

Your take on Coenie is based on what, I am yet to see him struggle in a scrum

Chiliboy has overtaken Strauss - you need to stay with the times.

My point on my A and B sides was that I did not have any of the players you said I would - just pointing out the nonsense and words you put in my mouth.

Give me my A side anyday  - hell I'd hate to see yours - it would be another conservative throw of the dice leading to nothing more than our current Bok standing. Hell it would be Morne at 10, BJ at 3, Muller at 4, Jean at 13......I can just see it......a bunch of hasbeens or never beens on the road to nowhere

Well Dave your mates Bambie and Yawnjies have failed to deliver. Morne is by far the most balanced 10 South Africa has ever produced. 

As for your take on Spies. I agree that he is underrated, but by no means is he the best in the game. There are nearly ten test 8s better than him. All non-South African!

Now onto Mvovo. I did try to give him a chance last year, but I pointed out his propensity to be beaten on the outside. His defence is suspect. He is a quality player with lots of potential. His physicality and directness should become essential to the Boks. Until he starts applying it, that will never be.
 

The proof is in the pudding Dave. It would just be nice if you would admit all your prior flops. Hell I see you still have Ludik in there at A team fullback, when only last week he was the patsie Basson lived off.....a Werner Greef without the imagination.

Keep your list and lets discuss it at the end of the S15.

 der Ar - only in your eyes has Lambie failed, so one really has to take your take on the lad for what its worth - complete and utter rubbish, much like your take on Bismark - the worst take on a rugby player I have ever read - yes even worse than Moz's take on Fourie.

How has Jantjies failed to deliver - take it you missed last weeks game and the whole of the CC - look its difficult to debate rugby with clowns that lie, it defeats the object really.

Name 10 test 8's that are better than Spies - take your time over this!!!

The one wing berth for the Boks is open......JP is a must and Mvovo for me has the inside lane for the other wing spot. Habana is history. Mvovo should be pushed by Engelbrecht, Sithole, v/d Heever and Mjekevu

 As fir your take on Morne being the best balanced 10 SA has ever produced - that is just insulting and smacks of ignorance - but good for a laugh - keep it up rugby man!!!

 Moz - I have nothing to admit on the failure front at all. My list of players are good players and I stick by that. I would expect Basson to beat Ludik as he is far quicker. Ludik is in my B side Moz, not my A side - Lambie is my starting fullback.

We are not blessed with depth at fullback - Ludik is a solid player and certainly better than the likes of Daniller and Viljoen. I am a Kirchner fan, but I'd give the B fullback spot to the younger Ludik.

The only other fullback I really rate is last years Bok U20 fullback Ulrich Beyers who is in the Bulls squad but not playing S15 rugby yet.

If Meyer picks my A list we will dominate world rugby again.

Not blessed with depth at fullback!

Well we have Frans Steyn, Taute, Lambie, Aplon, Joe Pietersen and Riaan.  Riaan actually had a great Super 15 l;ast year. Will the move to the sharks be his downfall.

Ludik is not cutting it and hasn't for a few years.

Kirchner simply is too clueless. He needs someone to tell him about passing the ball running angles , timing re joining the backline and some subtleties like that.

We have enough of everything but grey matter a lot of the time.

besides your core leadership group, i would hope that now having a new coach, a new vision and a new captain, our squad for the June tests will purely be selected on form.. let the players battle it out for a bok jersey..

however the down side to this vision is you have teams eg. The Sharks, playing players out of their best position eg. Pat Lambie - should be played at 15.

with that being said, our national selectors need to take a stand and demand that franchises play players in their position of bok contention - sorry if i'm going a bit of the point here but i'm very passionate about this!

my core leadership group would include the following players: B. du plessis, Bakkies, J.Smith, S.Burger, M.Steyn (must play, slowly bring Goosen in), J.De Villiers (yes i'm a huge JDV fan), JP Pietersen, P.Lambie (future bok captain)

The selection criteria first and foremost has to be about ability. Form changes every week. Next of all, players must play in their best position. That means Lambie will be exclusively a fullback, as Plumtree's delusions of him being a flyhalf are going nowhere. Leadership group? The only leaders I see are Du Preez, Fourie, Juan, Schalk, Bekker and a few others not of test material.

Welcome aboad JeanF. I think your boys will be ready for feast of guppies ;)
 

Welcome to the board jeanF. Trust you will have a great season. Cant tell who you support from your post?

Have to agree about the need to sort out who will play where for the Boks and get franchise buy in. Ditto the blending in re younger players a seemlessly as possible.

Smit has retired from international rugby and is in any event past it. Bakkies has probably reached the end of the road as well. Jean can still be part of the mix and help the younger guys. Haven't heard of any leadership skills re Petersen?

There is defintely a lot of sorting out to be done. Good luck Meyer - just remember to call up Rassie to do the thinking. While you are at it get Brendon Venter involved as well. All very obvious.

Wonder when Meyer willget his coaching team finalised - taking ages.

Bakkies can still play a part in the short term, Jean can't. Rather bring in Johan Venter as Fransies understudy. I hope Meyer gets who he wants onboard. It's unfortunate that a lot of people are currently tied up with other things. He mustn't feel ashamed at looking abroad as there are very few coaches in South Africa that can add any real value anyway in my opinion

True meyer MUST get the best assistance he can regardles of where they come from.

We scrum way below our potential and our backs are severely lacking in finesse.

Bakkies has I though quite a serious achilles or ankl eproblem. becs rekons these things sometimes don' tcome right.Wasn't he off to france.

Also Juan Smith is battling. Just doesn' come right.

As for De villiers - a class act to guide the youngsters.  Regardless, there is a lot of rugby to be played before a Bok team is selected so enough time to see who is who in the zoo.
What is nice about  a new  coach is that there is a chance he will be  a bit more objective - at least initially.

Lets try and understand the thinking of the fans in dealing with selections.   First of all you get the franchise supporters - for instance any player not playing for the Blue Bulls, the Sharks or whatever - must be the best ever nd should be selected.   I doo not buy that one though.

The second category are the old timers school - they hearken ba ck to players who performed in 2007 and cannot see that these are in fact rugby geriatrics.

Basically one should however, bear in mind performance over a period of time and not the one-game wonders.   However, it is early days in the 2012 competition and I have no real favourites as yet.   Like some youngsters though and hope they get better with time.  

thanks for the welcome guys - great to hear your opinions.

i'm a stormer Beeno, re Petersen, your right, probably not a leader but definitely a player that should pick himself for Meyers squad for June - i've been quite impressed with his performances at 13 and we all know what he can do on the wing.

without Bakkies, were very thin at 4 but i guess thats the exciting part having the players fight over that jersey, they all have to believe they are in with a shout.. makes the local derbies, the head to head battles great to watch!

must say, i'm very happy with Meyers appointment - imo best man for the job under the current circumstances.

Jean F that is more or less my view. And yes Jean remains pure class, as he showed against Oz.. He is functioning in a backline that has had no real skills at pattern play. A gap is never presented to Jean....he has to force every one through his opponent and the loosies. By contrast guys who play next to Carter are put into the gap.

Yet Jean cracked four great breaks in the QF....past both Aussie centres.

Hey Mike less of the geriatric stuff! All my friends are geriatrics. But I tend to agree with your posting....we need some fresh blood, mostly provided by retirements and blessed defections.

well said Mozart re JDV.

The issue is: you can just throw out the tried and tested players, you use them to develop the younger players with the potential to take over from them - the world cup is 4 years away, sure Jean most probably wont be there but that doesnt mean he should be left out, play him, play to win!

dont just throw the youngsters in the deep end: let du preez teach hougaard, M.Steyn teach Goosen, get Matfield involved to make Bekker the best 5 in the world, he has all the attributes! let them be part of the team set-up, bring them off the bench etc... then you give them a start against weaker opposition.

Mos... you made sone excellent points above re spies jantjies mujati coenie etc.

All very true! well assessed mate.

Welcome aboard JeanF and happy rucking.

Yep I'm looking forward to more of Jean's stuff.....I agree with everything he has said so far. And thanks Flash, we have the makings of some real debate on the Board now.....not just mindless provincial bickering.