FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  Thank heavens for the third Pom test

Thank heavens for the third Pom test

Started by Mozart27 REPLIES809 VIEWS· 24 Jun 2018, 13:44
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Jun 2018, 13:44
#1
24 Jun 2018, 13:44#1
Our laughable media was already winning the RC based on narrow wins at home over a failed Pom team. Now Rassie is 50/50 and we can see outside the return of Willie, Faf and especially Vermeulen...there is no new magic. But Vermeulen is gone for the RC leaving a black hole! Face it, yesterday it could have been Coetzee on the coaching bench. We have no answers at centre and much as I hate to say it, as of right now Rassie will use the Tractor and Kriel. They are both horribly flawed and will fail.....but there is literally nothing else. We have no centres ....none....most of our centres aren't even Super level. We seem okay at halfback, even though Willemse's injury has pushed his prospects effectively out to next year and possibly beyond the WC. Wilco needs to return at tighthead....he needed some rest....but is far and away technically our best tighthead scrummer. We are okay at lock. But the loosies mirror the centres....no test class fetcher. No imposing blindside specialist.....just Stephanie playing a rover role. And the biggest headache of all, the absence of Vermeulen. In the meantime it's hard to say what really changed in the first two Pom tests barring the will to win....we actually made more running metres against the Irish and Frogs under Coetzee. Yesterday the will to win was gone and all the problem areas shot to the surface. Coetzee must have had a sense of deja vu.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
24 Jun 2018, 14:09
#2
24 Jun 2018, 14:09#2

Yes ... it's exactly what we needed to bring us "world beaters" down to earth again.

Sadly it won't change his policy on selections. We will still see a lot of unwarranted players wearing the Bok jersey ... and the country will praise him for it.

I look forward to the RC. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Jun 2018, 14:15
#3
24 Jun 2018, 14:15#3

Mozart

There are points where I agree with you and points where I disagree.   So lets start insofar as the points I agree with you.   

That relates to the center situation - as well as the loosies.   I wrote extensively elsewhere about the serious loosie problems we know had for the past 6 years.   What happened is coaching madness.starting with Meyer and included Coetzee and to  lesser extent with Erasmus.   As can be seen elsewhere I am seriously worried about Vermeulen.   He had a string of injuries starting in 2015 and seems to be ongoing.  I always have a problem with fitness levels of NH players selected for the Springboks and although Vermeulen was excellent in the first two tests he virtually went AWOL in the third test.   Be it as it may I have my doubts as to his future availability on a regular basis and to select him  to play in the 2019 WC without a regularly high level of performance - would be a sign of Meyer madness.
Willemse is not out of rugby for a long term as mentioned by you.  He should be back even before the end of Super Rugby this year.
Your issue about the centers have always been flawed by prejudice.   However I do agree with you that the only centers showing signs of life have been De Allende and Kriel.   You claim they would fail - but I do not agree with you on that score.   
I am not sure about Willco Louw.  He was poor in the latter part of the Super Rugby season and in his last two tests - so there may be a fault in him as well. 
   
     .   


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
24 Jun 2018, 14:39
#4
24 Jun 2018, 14:39#4

Yes, the Poms are a team down on performance lately but this loss by the Boks was a close game and Erasmas did not put his best players on the field.IMO he could have won this game if he did. The goal was to identify depth - sadly what he found was there isn't much but the top selections are an ok team. Better than they were under the previous coach.

Boks will have a hard time against Oz and ABs in the RC but you could win a game against Oz and you should beat the Argies. Hopefully you will show at least flashes of form against the ABs. Hansen will be still trying to improve the team and taking some risks so you never know you could beat us.  Man would that result in some irrational exuberance

Prepare yourselves for more up and down stuff but Erasmas has got improvements out of the Boks already so there may be more where that came from.

With Pollard at 10, Faf at 9, and Etzabeth back at lock and the mediocre pairing of de Allande and Kriel in the mid-field things will get better. Plus new talent on the wing and at full back will continue to develop. Getting Marx back will also be big. Whiteley will help mainly through good link play.

In short Boks look better than they did a month ago.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Jun 2018, 20:39
#5
24 Jun 2018, 20:39#5
I don't know if the Boks are better than they were a month ago...we have narrowly won two tests over England. The third test was a classic failure of resolve. It was a chance to put England to the sword....a chance to make a real statement. Instead we all but conceded the game to the Poms....Erasmus pretty much said we lacked motivation. Our rugby in the professional era and before has been marked by these 'no mas'moments. NZ would never go that route and their opponents know it. They never concede defeat till the whistle blows. Until we toughen up competing with NZ is a pipe dream.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
24 Jun 2018, 20:42
#6
24 Jun 2018, 20:42#6

Indeed. 

I felt Ra ssie should have kept the winning team against the Poms and tested depth against the Argies and Oz at home.

With the weather favoring the poms, new caps and new combos it was seriously a bridge too far. 

Would have been better for the team to win 3-0 and and feel a bit more settled. 

As it stands, if he has poor showing in the RC we'll be reading about Coetzee's comments on the situation.

Were this the result on a dry evening in the Cape then I'd be more concerned. 

But harsh on Esterhuizen as he didn't get to do much. Kriel fluffed a try by not knowing when to pass. Allowed one defender to stop certain try.

I want Jantjies to have one more go. 

Haha just one more :)

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Jun 2018, 21:01
#7
24 Jun 2018, 21:01#7
Even JW knows we were not fielding our best side! Some sorting has been doneand we could have agood pack if Eben and Marx are back. Beast vs back to fotrm. Ktshof is the deal Marx - best hooker in world and Eben best lock. Snyman showed he is a class act. Plenty of speed and gets around the park well, great in lineouts. Du Toit is a world class number 7. Great pity about Duanne but hopefully Whiteley will spark.. Kolisi has disappeared in the RC many times and that is a worry. BUT he had a good series against the poms and Marx will help in getting turnover ball. Tighthead is a concern .Half backs are good and centers better than some here think. Who can forget how Allende and Kriel ripped the wee abs her in SA couple of seasons ago and they are better now.Really disappointed Dyamani was not called up and given a shot. Willie being back is a positive.Back three is a bit small hence call for Dyamaniits not all doom and gloom.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Jun 2018, 21:37
#8
24 Jun 2018, 21:37#8
@Plum. “With the weather favoring the poms, new caps and new combos it was seriously a bridge too far. Would have been better for the team to win 3-0 and and feel a bit more settled. ” I have always had the opinion that some National sides can easily field two fairly different but highly competitive sides while some National sides do not even have a remote chance of doing that. The All Blacks are comfortably in the first group. This third test against England has proven beyond any doubt that SA find themselves comfortably in the second group. At least for the foreseeable future. Good luck to Rassie in finding a competitive group of 34 players before the start of the 2019 RWC. At least he will have a reasonable excuse if he makes a mess of the RWC, but if he does surprise me and stick around to the next RWC and he fail again, there will surely be a few red faced around.
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
24 Jun 2018, 22:16
#9
24 Jun 2018, 22:16#9
“Who can forget DDA and Kriel ripping the wee ABs a couple of seasons ago?”. Well I certainly have no recollection Hasbeeno! You haven’t beaten us since 2014....
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
24 Jun 2018, 22:33
#10
24 Jun 2018, 22:33#10
Moolaa, I think it’s another stress induced fantasy mate. Wee Beeno & few others conjure up plays in their mind & then convince themselves they actually happened, lol
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Jun 2018, 22:37
#11
24 Jun 2018, 22:37#11
Mooooo la la la we lost by a point or two due to the wee abs cheating! But our two young centers on the day, Allende and Kriel, comprehensively outplayed your plodders!But to all the oaks here having a good wailing and whining session  - all verrt embarrassing of course,  and who are all at sea about the Boks, please read what a gifted coach, Eddie Jones had to say:

While happy with the win, Jones said he was in no doubt that the Boks deserved to win the series.

“I thought it was a great rugby series and it was good for the healthiness of test rugby. The Boks are a revitalised team and they are well-coached. They were very good in the first two tests and deserved to win the series,” he said.

“I think the Boks are World Cup contenders. But I would have said that six months ago just because there are so many really good players here. There is incredible rugby depth in this country, and even if there are a lot of good players overseas, there are a lot of guys with real ability left here too.

“There is a big difference in the Boks now compared to six months ago. They work much harder off the ball, they have an incredibly strong maul, and then when the opportunity comes to spread the ball wide, they are dangerous, and Willie le Roux makes good decisions. They have played some really good games in this series if you consider where they were and they will only get stronger.”

ALL is not lost oaks, man up please! no mas 

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
24 Jun 2018, 23:51
#12
24 Jun 2018, 23:51#12
ABs comprehensively outplayed but they still won. Funny that....
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 00:58
#13
25 Jun 2018, 00:58#13
The trouble with Allende and Kriel is they are brain dead. Both of them, especially Duh Allende, have the physical requirements. But they fail match after match in decision making. Take Crotty or Henshaw, no better physically than our two chaps.....but their decision making is vastly better. In the last two weeks Kriel blows a try by not executing a school boy commitment of a defender and Allende gifts two tries by not tackling properly and kicking poorly at the wrong time. These guys are 3/4 year test veterans. Weshould be able to count on them to make the proactive plays that decide tests....sensing the space on the field, cutting down space defensively. To go another route now we get new test recruits, not vets. There is a learning curve in top rugby. The problem is Allende and Kriel aren't paying back the time invested in them. And I see no progress in centre smarts in the incumbents....it's probably our biggest issue.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 01:45
#14
25 Jun 2018, 01:45#14

Mozart

Will always write tripe  on this site and the latest is no different.  You conveniently forget how in the test in 2015 De Allende wiped the floor with Nonu and how he did the same with  SBW in the recent Stormers - Blues game?   Trying always to find fault with players  you dislike without looking at positives is foolish.      

Beeno

We have no loosies who can deal with ball protection and recovery at breakdowns and it does not bother you?


     

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
25 Jun 2018, 02:27
#15
25 Jun 2018, 02:27#15

Moz surely you mean a hole for someone black ?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 03:20
#16
25 Jun 2018, 03:20#16
Hahaha.....yes WD....I guess that too.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
25 Jun 2018, 10:26
#17
25 Jun 2018, 10:26#17

Moz

100% agree with you on this one.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2018, 10:51
#18
25 Jun 2018, 10:51#18

Per mooo la la la - ABs comprehensively outplayed but they still won. Funny that...

What Beeno posted - But our two young centers on the day, Allende and Kriel, comprehensively outplayed your plodders!

Mooooo please read the above very carefully and tell Uncle Beeno where you went wrong. The kbbs have very comprehension skills!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2018, 11:04
#19
25 Jun 2018, 11:04#19

ou maaaikie you are confused again. We wont pick a guy who meets your requirements because Kolisi must be captain. Have you heard of Marco van Staden of the Bools? 23 years old and 109 kg and is very strong over the ball. Marx of course is about the best in the world over the ball and Kitshoff is excellent as well.

Ou Maaaikie we just have to pick the side without political interference and things would go much better but your anc pals will have none of that!! Meanwhile we have hose kiwi pretenders deluding themselves that they and their refs are the best! Hahhahahahahahahaha

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2018, 11:21
#20
25 Jun 2018, 11:21#20

The good Dr Moz doesn't appreciate the fact that SA backs in general lack the skills of their nz counter parts. Why pick on Allende and Kriel. A backline needs cohesion , creativity etc. After school these attributes are drummed out of our players. BUT there has been a change, starting with the Lions who showed very clearly that SA backs CAN perform.

Rassie has Stick as his backline coach. The guy looks to be a quota pick as he has very little coaching experience. That said the Bok backline has looked better and we shall see where this leads to. Rassie has a huge task ahead of him but if he cant get a non merit selected side to the top nobody can.

its amazing how much the oaks are making of the Newlands loss given the circumstances. Best leave matters in Rassie's very capable hands oak, he knows better of course!


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 13:46
#21
25 Jun 2018, 13:46#21

Listen dumbo Beeno

I know about all loosies in SA and have been looking at deficient loosie play for years.   I know about Van Staden - not a patch on Labuschagne as a loosie - too slow to be effective anyway.  

You are the dolt who did not realize the loosie deficiency under Meyer and now inherited by Erasmus.   I know Erasmus as a previous loosie himself would know what to do to fix the problem. 

To use the climate as an excuse for the disastrous performance on Saturday is ludicrous and one has to accept the shortcomings of some players involved in the process as a reason for the loss as the major cause.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 14:13
#22
25 Jun 2018, 14:13#22
There are two possibilities: 1 Liggies is a nice little club player. 2 Every coach who has ever seen him, including the Pom recruiters and all the Bok coaches have missed his vast potential thus far seen only by Oom Tokkie. Gosh, what a conundrum, I wonder which one is right.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 14:54
#23
25 Jun 2018, 14:54#23

So who got it right as to stupid Alberts and Useless Fat Fransie?   Not Mozart - he keeps on punting players who were not even useful club players like Morne Steyn.   If Erasmus has to trust your version then we can say - heaven helps the SA team - they will be destroyed.    

I am objective on players - you are not.   Labuchagne would have been a loosie in any of the top international team by now - but Meyer and by extension you could never realize when a player was good enough to play for the Springboks - so he selected duds on reputation.

Now tell us again - what are "process tackles" - I want to enjoy another good laugh.    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 15:24
#24
25 Jun 2018, 15:24#24
Why don't you also ask what 'hinging' is you dumb old coot.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 15:31
#25
25 Jun 2018, 15:31#25

I knew perfectly what hinging in scrums is - the fact was I  wanted to now why you saw it happening and neither the referee and his assistants missed out on it.   A false and dubious statement on your part.

So now lets get back to my question - you invented the term 'Process tackles"  to degrade performance by Labuschagne and to enhance the low work rate contribution of Alberts - so please tell us again - "what represents process tackles"    We need to laugh about that one again.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 16:01
#26
25 Jun 2018, 16:01#26
Nah you don't have a clue about hinging or the role of process tackles in inflating tackle counts. I've explained this to you before....look it up.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 16:26
#27
25 Jun 2018, 16:26#27

What the hell is process tackles?   There is no such things in reality - it was a stupid term invented by you to cover for low work rate players you supported.

Secondly why did the referees and assistants not see the hinging only you saw?     

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,255 posts
25 Jun 2018, 16:43
#28
25 Jun 2018, 16:43#28
@Clevermike 
Being "more" objective is admitting that no one can be objective.Let's not forget about Vermeulen. You made an objective assessment that predicted he was going to be a non-entity- prior to him winning the man of the series.  On the basis of this- either you are not objective - or you do not understand rugby. That was a major blunder. 
Let's say we have player A and player B:
-- Player A is a brand new player. A new prospect that "could" become a mainstay Bok.-- Player B is an older player. B has been a mainstay Bok for some time.  
If player A and player B - both perform at the same level in a test. (i.e. both of them are barely noticeable) then;
Most of us would score player B worse than player A. 
We would give more benefit of the doubt to the newer player- and score them higher than the older established player. 
This is just one example.  Fantasy stats are not objective, it is not qualitative data. It does not measure stuff like hitting rucks backwards, the physicality of a tackle turning defence into offence, etc, etc.

— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news