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The Boks team and tactics are up for grabs

Started by Mozart27 REPLIES429 VIEWS· 01 Aug 2013, 06:37
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2013, 06:37
#1
01 Aug 2013, 06:37#1

 With the advent of Willie Le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht  the Boks tilt towards a more attacking style. But do we have the players to pull it off? Morne is a kicking flyhalf, we have no real running loosies in the Big Joe/Bobby Skinstad mode, and our tight forwards are  poorer on the run than our opponents. 

 

I doubt we will achieve critical mass this year.The Cheetahs show the way in many games.....but at best there will be two Cheetahs in the  Bok team...Willie and Strauss. Not enough. For the Bok style to change we need a feeder team  with many more test class players dedicated to the running game. If the Sharks or Stormers had embraced a similar playing style....maybe.

 

 

So what we are asking Meyer to do is take essentially the same players, and produce a playing style far more aggressive than the component unions. I'd like to believe this is possible, but my instincts tell me it's more likely that known defensive frailties will derail Willie and JJ.....and the Boks will revert to kicking, mauling and tackling.

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
01 Aug 2013, 09:25
#2
01 Aug 2013, 09:25#2

And how successfull was Skinstadt?

 

We can't take on the AB trying to beat them at their own game. Nothing was wrong with the Boks game plan. Just the implementation of it wasn't spot on.  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 10:17
#3
01 Aug 2013, 10:17#3
There are two aspects needed in this case - especially in playing the All Blacks - namely - * best practice in countering the AB's playing style ; and * sharpening up on the attacking play of the Springboks themselves. Problem is that both needs to be effective - and the present Springbok team have serious defects in the relevant regard. Insofar as defense is concerned our main problem lies with the poor mobility of our loosies - in general we can defend man on man - other than the fact that our loosies are too immobile to counter the speedier AB loosies.- especially when they link up with their backline players. Of the present loosies only Louw meets that requirement. Although relatively speedy - Spies was not effetive at all - and Alberts is seriously one-dimensional and not very effective in what he is supposed to be doing as well. Purely playing on the reputation that he is a strong ball carrier - Alberts has failed in this in all tests in the RC last year. In attacking play there are two aspects where we are defective in the present situation, namely - * line out ball recovery; and * the half back situation. Insofar as line-out play is concerned the AB's mainly uses their locks and no 8 to recover balls in line-out play. We have in the present set-up with Kruger, Alberts and in the absence of Spies (who cannot really be used since he is so ineffective in other spheres of play) of no real value in line-outs. Replacing Spies with Vermeulen is an improvement in all aspects of play, but Alberts and Kruger are still two deficiencies. Hopefully Du Toit will be back when we meet the AB's - but De Jager is also a very good option - with enough space and attacking as well as defensive capacity to make a difference. The third change should be Alberts. I favour Labuschagne in this case. He is a very effective line-out player and links up with backline attacking moves effectively since he is speedy and good in ball carrying with passing skills as well. He is by far the best defending loosie in SA at this stage - whether in open space or round the fringes and a very effective recoverer of balls in tackle and maul situations. Mozart will obviously not agree - but stats confirm all the above. The third change would be to bring in Vermeulen at 8 - in the absence of Arno Botha. Vermeulen is reasonably effective in line out play - but has a deficiency insofar as mobility is concerned. However, he can carry balls in traffic situations - and is a reasonably good defender. The half back situation is a critical deficiency. Pienaar is effective in kicking and his passing game is barely reasonable from an attacking perspective. He was thus far this year for both Ulster and the Springboks really not a house on fire - but there is no obvious candidate to replace him. Of the younger players who show potential I would say the pick of those are Reinach - but the latter was injured and only recently returned from that injury - not enough game time to show what he can do. The main problem remains Morne Steyn at flyhalf. Steyn was never a good ball distributor and in attack he is not effective at all - never was and never will be. His strategic kicking game is a nightmare - it represents only a way to hand over possession to the opposition. In essence an one-dimensional player of limited use - his only strong point being his kicking at goal. That being said - that aspect of his game last year went to pieces and he is brittle at times when under pressure. Problem here is Goosen is injured and Lambie for a variety of reasons have not performed really well in Super 15. Despie this I still think Lambie would be a better option at 10 than Steyn. If I was the Springbok coach I would make at least the following changes to the side to play the All Blacks and Wallabies:- 10 Lambie 8 Vemeulen 7 Labuschagne 5 Du Toit/De Jager. In the case of De Jager I would play him at 4 and move Etzebeth to 5. For the rest only minor change would be advisable. These would include playing Serfontein at 12, De Villiers at 13 and Engelbrecht at 14 - whilst a possible change to the props will be advisable in playing Malherbe at 3. I believe that with the suggested changes Springbok team would be more competitive in the games against the All Blacks and Wallabies. Without them - we have no chance against the All Blacks and is also likely to lose against the Wallabies.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Aug 2013, 15:32
#4
01 Aug 2013, 15:32#4
Well for a start we should not be playing Morne at 10, that already sends out the wrong message. While some had issue with Lambie, I certainly never saw major concerns, it was more down to a poor Sharks effort all season - to be fair Lambie had very little to work with outside him. With the likes of Willie, Habana, JP, JJ, Serfontein, Lambie, Goosen and Hougaard in the backs, we should be looking to play an expansive game. I disagree with you regarding our tight forwards being poorer on the run than their opponents.....they don't get better than Beast, Strauss, Bismark, Coenie, Etzebeth and Steph du Toit..........our best running loosie is CJ Stander, but good old Meyer has failed to secure his services. Other good attacking loosies are Kolisi, Botha, Coetzee and Labascagne moving forward. We have the material to play an expansive game, Meyer needs to select accordingly and embrace a balanced game plan of attrition and attack.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 16:01
#5
01 Aug 2013, 16:01#5
Saffex I agree with you in all respects - but for two things::- * Hougaard was not up to standard when he played this year - probably due to injury nigles - but he will in any effect not be able to play again this year due to his latest operation; and * there is no way you can leave out De Villiers from the backline - he was the most effective attacking player at no 12 in Super 15 in all SA franchises this year and was part and parcel of he attacking play shown in the June tests. As to Hougaard - I wish he would get away from the Bulls to a franchise where he would get decent scrummie coaching - he is at present going nowhere fast and that is endangering his casreer.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2013, 16:16
#6
01 Aug 2013, 16:16#6
Dave ...when have you EVER seen Lambie make a break from the flyhalf position. What we saw at the Sharks seemed pretty definitive....a small chap, with no particular running skills. If he can't do it himself, how is he going to ignite our back play? Looking at Cruden and Carter last week, they both made breaks the likes of which Lambie couldn't pull off, even in the lowliest pool game. - As for the tight forwards I'm not saying Bismarck, Coenie and Etzebeth are not good on the run....they are. The Beast could actually be brilliant . But therin lies the problem.....these guys are not trained to run, offload and back up the way the AB tight forwards are. So it becomes a series of one off charges which are easily dealt with. What I am referring to, is the kind of forward handling the Brumbies showed when they ripped the Sharks apart. NZ have that, you saw it last week....we don't. This is more trainable than most of our deficiencies, but doesn't sort out in just a few games.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 18:15
#7
01 Aug 2013, 18:15#7
Mozart Trainable perhaps - but the Springbok loosies have been around for years and a player like Alberts cannot be trained to be more mobile with better ball handling skills. He is not physically built to allow for that type of thing and is already 29 years of age. If he has not been trained thus far - he never will be. The ball handling of players like Botha and Labuschagne is on par with that of any team they played against this year - you won't believe it but it is statistically proven - that is why they can score open-field tries and contribute to the scoring of such tries. Vermeulen is better than Alberts - he is slow - but still speedier than Alberts. I would not see him as a longer term investment in an event - hope Botha takes over sooner rather than later. Kruger is an absolutely uselss lock - so we should rather have Du Toit in that position. He has the necessary speed and ball handling skills. As to Steyn - his problem is not only his absolute lack in attacking capacity - it is also his ball handling skills and his kicking game. He stands to deep in the pocket and makes to many passes to players outside of him who have no chance of using the ball in attacking play. He makes absolute silly kicks even in the opposition half of the field which allow for counter-attacks by the opposition and actually represents only handover of possession. . Morne's problem is a lack of ball sense and that is a fact. Lambie has at least ball sense and given the poor performance of players around him cannot be blame alone for the mess the Sharks backline made. I would always rate Lambie higher than Steyn in the position of flyhalf. He is being roundly condemned this season - but he showed in previous seasons that he has the ability to make line breaks and play attacking rugby. Morne never had attacking skills - Lambie had and further training would help - that s the difference between the two players. The right selections - and not the dummies we have at present - would go a long way to correct the problem you outlined above. With th right selections we can beat the All Blacks - with the wrong ones we are bound to lose.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
01 Aug 2013, 19:19
#8
01 Aug 2013, 19:19#8

 Mike, Morne has been miles better than Lamebie this year, he has scored more tries and has created more. Lamebie has shown zilch, hopefully Brenden Venter sorts him out but this is the year of Morne.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 19:27
#9
01 Aug 2013, 19:27#9
Shezza With respect - Morne did score two tries - against Lambie's one - but the creation of tries you probably refer to was in the June test and the actual creator of the tries were Willie le Roux - If I am not mistaken. Despite all the stories Lambie was involved in more Sharks tries than met the eye. Problem is Morne remains a non-productive player on international level from an attacking perspective. This has been discussed many times on panels and the ultimate conclusion always has been that he is one-dimensional and consequently predictable. .
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2013, 20:30
#10
01 Aug 2013, 20:30#10
One simply can't reason with such abysmal bias.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
01 Aug 2013, 21:07
#11
01 Aug 2013, 21:07#11

 Nope I'm on about all throughout the Bulls campaign there has been assist to tries from Morne dotted about, not that frequent but more than Lambie has done throughout the year. Lambie has shown nothing of this attacking flair since the RWC 2011.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 21:45
#12
01 Aug 2013, 21:45#12
Mozart Abysmal Bias you say - just one question is Morne Steyn a good attacking flyhalf - yes or no?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2013, 22:51
#13
01 Aug 2013, 22:51#13
Why would I reason with a klip kop?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Aug 2013, 00:11
#14
02 Aug 2013, 00:11#14

Moz I dont understand how you can say Lambie cant make a break when we have seen many breaks ftom the lad throughout his career. He has been a bit short on breaks this year but thats a Sharks team thing.

 

Lambie is a class act, who proved his metal and ability seasons ago. He has had an average season much like Dagg has and to be fair Cruden has not set the world alight this year either, in fact bar the semi where I cant say I thought he was that good but others thought differently, he has been pretty average. His name has not featured that often if at all in the S15 team of the week if memory serves me correctly.

 

Sorry Moz, Lambie over Morne is a no brainer for me.

 

As for the Kiwi tightforwards, I cant say I see likes of Krockott, Franks, Woodcock, Hore, Romanoa, Retalick or Whitelock looking any more impressive with ball in hand than our boys, not by any stretch

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Aug 2013, 00:15
#15
02 Aug 2013, 00:15#15

Mike get this into your head, I dont care what you think about Hougaard, I have seen him all season and had no issue with his game at all. A fit Hougaard walks my side at 9, no questions asked.

 

Why on earth would I want old man Jean in my backline when I have Serfontein, Serfontein is better and thats a fact......so, no Jean does not make my side, I have long moved on from Jean. My centres are Serfontein and JJ and they are there to stay for the duration. There is just no way in hell I could bring myself to selecting Jean ahead of either Serfontein or JJ, not in a million years.

 

The selection of my centres is one of the easiest selections I would have to make.

 

 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Aug 2013, 00:30
#16
02 Aug 2013, 00:30#16

Cruden had a very good game against the Stormers and I think he made the team of the week back then, but that was at the start of the season. Carter was obviously the pick of the 10's the last couple of rounds, but that's par for the course. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Aug 2013, 00:38
#17
02 Aug 2013, 00:38#17

Cruden is a quality player, like Lambie but both have had average seasons by their standards.

 

Difference being that Cruden has been playing in a winning side, Lambie not

 

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2013, 01:44
#18
02 Aug 2013, 01:44#18

Dave I honestly  can't remember Lambie making any break from 10....but plenty from 15 where he cuts well onto a popped ball. How is he going to beat the defence at 10? Step....nope. Pace ....nope. Power...nope. Face it, he's just pretty ordinary ball in hand.

 

But more than that he is mentally shot.....much like Hougaard. They have both lost enormous confidence, and I can't see a test against NZ as the place to regain it. They are much like Rory McIlroy.....totally confused.

 

 

Both those chaps are going to  have to rebuild at provincial level

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Aug 2013, 02:02
#19
02 Aug 2013, 02:02#19

Have to disagree here Moz, I dont recall a particular break, but I know Lambie has made a few from 10. His pace is good enough to execute a break, he has a good eye for a gap and has always had a good step. 

 

There is just no way I could select Morne ahead of Lambie, for we will never challenge seriously with Morne at 10. While Lambie has not set the world alight I cant say he has been poor, much the same with Hougaard.

 

I would play Lambie at 10 as I just could not bring myself to selecting Morne at 10 - its just not going to happen.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2013, 04:30
#20
02 Aug 2013, 04:30#20
Mozart I ask a simple question and expect a simple answer. No argument - just a simple answer. Got the normal personal insult effort when you have no real answer to questions. If you cannot have a reasonable debate and support your arguments with real facts and not manufactured ones - then insults are your only method out - not so? Well done - but the proof is in the pudding - and this year we can expect the normal losses if Meyer select the duds you always support.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2013, 06:20
#21
02 Aug 2013, 06:20#21
Expect what you like Oom. There is no point in debating a person whose comments about a player could all have been written before the game.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
02 Aug 2013, 06:22
#22
02 Aug 2013, 06:22#22

Moz, you shortsighted biased twit with absolutely no rugby understanding - Lambie is a much better attacking flyhalf than Steyn - there is just no comparison. Please take a look at the stats from this years S15 that expose your obvious lack of objectivity:

 

Tries: Lambie 1, Steyn 2

Try Assists: Lambie 3, Steyn 5

Line breaks: Lambie 3, Steyn 4

Tackles bust: Lambie 11, Steyn 10

Line breaks created: Lambie 5, Steyn 8

Go-forward: Lambie 36, Steyn 38

Offloads: Lambie 7, Steyn 2

 

Moz - come now, be honest .... clearly you can see that Steyn has no idea how to offload - this proves Lambie's vastly superior attacking prowess.

 

It doesn't matter that Steyn's kicking percentage was higher for the season because in his last two Super Rugby games Lambie ended on a real confidence boosting hot streak only missing 9 from 15 attempts, while making an impressive 6. We have no reason to fear that he will lose his nerve in the Rugby Championship. The hopes of a nation are well placed in his trusty right boot

 

I hope you can see my point Moz.

 

 

 

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2013, 06:45
#23
02 Aug 2013, 06:45#23

Damn, I've been exposed again by  a pesky stat. Ja I can see clearly now, Morne crumbles under pressure. He has no attacking nous....whereas Lambie slips tackles like Houdini. I'm totally persuaded by  your arguments....I'm for Lambie and freedom from the tyranny of the boot.

 

 

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
02 Aug 2013, 06:57
#24
02 Aug 2013, 06:57#24

 In all seriousness - LeRoux joining the line has helped a lot of our attacking deficiencies. His timing and passing are just awesome at times. I hope the game planning to get him involved continues.

 

It will be interesting to see how LeRoux handles the pressure of the RC and how Meyer handles the mistakes that LeRoux is bound to make  - how much of a leash will he get?

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2013, 07:21
#25
02 Aug 2013, 07:21#25

Le Roux is something we haven't had for a long time...and I'm not very confident Meyer will live with the inevitable miscues. Which is one of the reasons I felt a Campese style wing role might be best. A major mistake at fullback has pretty much always been terminal in Bok rugby.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2013, 10:13
#26
02 Aug 2013, 10:13#26
Mozat Wonderful comments from a person that invented myths like De Jongh taking Engelbrecht in tackles 5 meters forward every time he attempted a tackle - that invented bone crushing tackles by Alberts when it was bog ordinary ones and that invented ball carrying by the same player when they were not in evidence. All statiscally proven as myths - or was it outright lies? There is no way that one can debate anything with a person that made a statement that De Jongh in the Twickenham test did nothing wrong as an excuse when he in fact statistically proven did nothing a all during the whole test. That is what can at best be described as BALLS. I have had a nightmare last night when I dreamed of the forthcoming Springbok test against the AB's - losing b a huge margin. I think that the fact that we are bound to lose will be attributable to the players you want in the team based on experience coupled to mythical performances - I say mythical because statistics prove the exact opposite.. However, abysmal bias is the one thing that you shine in. Bias against players make you miss their contributions in games completely and that has also being proved over and over. OK - I am biased - but looking at the tests last year and Morne Steyn's and Willem Alberts' performances I think I have reason to be doubtful of their ability on international level. Same goes for most players punted by you.
SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
02 Aug 2013, 10:37
#27
02 Aug 2013, 10:37#27

They should make me the Bok coach

 

First prize: Bust the line.
Second prize: Build momentum.
Third prize: Squeeze a penalty.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2013, 16:46
#28
02 Aug 2013, 16:46#28
In the background I hear the rumbling of a cement truck.
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