The centre situation

Seeing as though almost every discussion on this site lands up being about the centres, I figured I'd follow the trend. We have not had a decent centre paring since JDV and Jaque Fourie, but I do want to make a couple of observations regarding the current pair. As far as De Allende is concerned, he has now had numerous chances, and the bottom line is, he is just not an international quality centre. He has no flair on attack, and his defence is just not good enough. Kriel has had an up and down year so far, but I think it is fair to say the following about him. He is a very good finisher, he is dangerous with ball in hand, he is the right size and he certainly has the pace. His defence is good, though not great. My point is this. The pair are generally regarded as being sub-par by most on the site, but how is Kriel expected to shine if his 12 generally creates nothing for him and is a very predictable player? I am not saying that Kriel is the greatest centre ever or anything of the sort, but I am saying that for a 13 to shine, he needs a good 12. I think we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.  

I don't know if Kriel is cut out to be a 13, He is more of a finisher like you said.

How many times did Allende break the line v England, everyone commented on it. Where was Kriel? 

He should be running the support line off of Allendes shoulder, not drifting away after the line break. 

When he does have the ball his first move is to try Hitchkick to the outside and then he runs our wingers out (by now they should know to x switch with him).

Putting Pollard, Serf, Esterhuizen or any other player inside him won't open up the space outside him.

He's played 15 so let him play on the wing where we are weak under the high ball at the moment.

There he can use his pace and power to get over the line.  

We can talk about 12 not creating for Kriel, but he has often been liked with Willie. Sometimes our 12 and 13 work together, sometimes they are split up into separate units. If Kriel can get some space, he is a nuisance ball-in-hand. Damian has, bizarrely, had a reputation for physicality, yet it's Kriel who is the physical runner. Much, much more physical. His best test thus far, of his international career, is the Pretoria test. If he could distribute more, he'd be a very significant player. We saw a little bit of that against New Zealand. On Tour up north? He was the focal point of the attack against France, Scotland and Wales, not Damian. What did he do? He got some flat ball between the final two defenders. He got over the gainline, but very blinkered about crashing it up. New Zealand's attack hinges on the 10, 13 and 15 as outlets in the distribution chain. We currently only have Pollard and Willie, which means we feed out centres exorbitant amounts of ball, ball that rarely gets to our wings, even more rarely with space.

12 is easily sorted by starting André. 13 is a little more difficult. Am has attacking potential, but he is less lively than Kriel. He is, however, much more accurate defensively. I'd even say smarter.

Whatever Rassie does, he better start making some good decisions. 

Kriel is not ideal, but the real problem is Duhlande and Carthuizen. Neither have the creativity to create a paper aeroplane, let alone be playmakers. They both lead footen, so they cant even step of their shoulder to get a quick pop pass away at test level

Too much pressure is put on Willie Leroux to be the playmaker. If we could have a thinking player at 12, then it would ask more questions- and get our wings into the game more.

Against the All Blacks our wingers were dangerous because they got the ball at pace.

André has gotten the outside backs away. He can grubber effectively and pass effectively. It all comes down to reading the game. André reads the game like a real 12. They couldn't be farther removed from each other. This one falls squarely on the shoulders of José Erasmus. 

Kriel is a runner. He is a good runner if used properly. Can he do more? Can he learn to pass? Am can and has. Kriel has a penchant for rushing and missing runners. He is strong enough to handle himself very well at test level, but he is inaccurate. Sometimes even careless. 

With André and Am, we have centres we can play off. That's the bottom line. With Damian and Kriel, we have dead ends. I had hope for Kriel finally clicking, but he seems destined to tease then disappoint. José Erasmus sold the team short. He hasn't even gotten the best out of Willie. 

The answer has not been given at all.  Esterhuizne made three line breaks of substance in the tests he played in and in two the balls were turned over.  

His defense was always sub-standard.   

I have also criticized  De Allende and asked for suggestions for changing him at 12.   All the poorest performance assessor (AO)could come up was Esterhuizen - who is even worse as a player than De Allende is.   

I warned  Mozart that him suggesting of Fat Fransie would be a  joke.   I mentioned Serfontein as an option - but there was no response on that one. 

The answer has not been found and I hope that Super Rugby would help to get a clearer indication of the way to go.        

Rassie did bring in some new blood to cover Dom Linda and the mermaid Aerial.

Unfortunately Am got injured almost immediately and for some reason Rassie decided that no Am meant no Esterhuizen either. 

Quite strange. 

Esterhuizen didn't do much wrong. For me he showed that he would on a bad day be at least as good as DDA.

Maybe Rassie wanted established partnerships on the EOYT and felt that the sum of Am and Esterhuizen was stronger than Kriel and DDA but that individually they didn't quite stack up.

He is officially out of time for world cup prep now sadly. Too few games left to develope much.

If there is some well functioning 12 13 combo that emerges or continues to improve during SR then maybe they'll get chance but it's very doubtful.

So it'll be mermaid time come the WC. The only question is whether her friend Linda will be visiting Japan alongside side her.

I hope not.

Keep talking Mike. I'll be splicing the EOYT clips together and we'll see all very soon. 

Willemse, Pollard, Serf.

Pollard, Estie, Serf.

Pollard , Serf, Am.

Willemse, Pollard, Am.

Nel, Vorster, Mapoe,RJVR,

Horses for courses with players pushing for selection. 

Duh Allende has been TOOTHLESS in attack and pretty lost and passive defensively.

Dude also seems lazy or slow when involved in cover or scramble defence.

KC

You have to go back many years to find  any good in Morne and Fat Fransie.   By 2012 they were totally useless.   Problem is that De Villiers spoiled his reputation by returning from a major  injury, but before that the ideal center for SA - much respected.   Habana was always an individual player with huge ball sense - hence his massive try scoring record.  He never really depended  on backline attacking balls to score tries.   

Since 2012 the Springbok backline was in constant jeopardy and the fact is that most people did not really make realistic evaluation of what was happening.   Fact is Meyer never really got the 13 selection right and the vanishing of De Villiers due to injury caused a combination of centers in 2015 who by the start of the WC had three games as a combination.   Coetzee in two years used the combination ONCE.   

In the backline Meyer used a style of play that totally neutralize backline play - so even the WC tests showed zero of value insofar as  combination development is concerned.

By the way - Huw Jones came to SA to study at UCT in 2011  and played rugby for the WP and sometime the Stormers, because useless De Jongh was preferred by Coetzee.   By 2015 he could have married his SA girl friend and even qualify for SA citizenship and play for the Springboks.   No - like so many other top players - the SA coaches idiocy remained firmly in place. And the incomparable Mozart supported Coetzee in his idiocy.          

By 2012? What of Morne's 2013? You are always wrong. I think you do it deliberately. There's no possible explanation outside that. 

Frans was bettering the cellar dweller fan favourites many years after 2012. What I've seen recently is a player that it test quality. Vastly superior to Damian, the wing-13 hybrid. 

Pollard has finally matured and is our best 10 by some way ... and you idiots want him at 12.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaa!!

Wow.

Instead of playing our best 10 in years out of position, why not rather bring a specialist 12 and 13 in.

Uh-Duh!!

Esterhuizer ... the mere fact that he didn't do much wrong does not qualify him as a test center. He didn't do much right either ... and that's why he couldn't forcibly take the 12 jersey for himself.

Esterhuizer is an average club player. There is absolutely nothing special about him.

Wow ... you guys are honestly considering the dead ordinary Am as a test prospect??

Haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaa!!!

Are you that desperate to include below average players of colour into the mix?

He is not a Bok ... he doesn't have anything in his skill set that qualifies him as a test center ... unless of course if skin colour is all that you need to receive your call up.

Am is barely good enough to play at Super Rugby level.

CC

The problem is the only Am and Estwrhuizen have been given a shot. 

So we're screwed.

There'll be nobody new now until after the WC.

Yes ... It was rather silly of Rassie to limit his option so badly ... and that with very poor selection all round.

Am ... Esterhuizer ... De Allende ... and Kriel ... are all very poor options at center. None of them deserve to be there. I wouldn't want any of them in my Lions squad.

Serfontein would make an immediate improvement at both 12 and/or at 13 and so would Franscois Venter.

We saw what a little intellect brought to our backline when Venter was afforded his shot awhile back.

The notion that brawn trumps brains is about as ludicrous as assuming Poepol has a single brain cell.  

CC

The dim poepoltjie could never prove that Esterhuizen in fact deserve selection.   In all the games he played in his defense was substandard - so AO had to develop his own unproven theory that Esterhuizen made o such strong tackles - the few he in fact made.

So then we also have a brain fart by Mozart - the glorious Fat Farnsie scored a try in a game between Montpellier and believe it - the worst team in Top 14 - Agen.  That's suddenly qualifies him for Springbok selection.   And horror by horror he played at full back in that game.  Was that not what Plumtree said in 2013 - that Fatso is not a center at all!!!!   Mozart - why are you always foolish.   

I could see clearly why Erasmus did not trust Esterhuizen as a defender and the fact is he did not bring anything else to the game  despite the three line breaks he made in all matches played  - two of which ended up in possession losses.

I think Erasmus looked at making merit selections and not artificially created merit as is the norm on site.   The fact is that there are problems in the mid-field selection and the answer ahs not been found.  I would rather see that Serfontein and Venter get a chance to see what they can do than the under-performing Esterhuizen and Am .       

CC

The dim poepoltjie could never prove that Esterhuizen in fact deserve selection.   In all the games he played in his defense was substandard - so AO had to develop his own unproven theory that Esterhuizen made o such strong tackles - the few he in fact made.

So then we also have a brain fart by Mozart - the glorious Fat Farnsie scored a try in a game between Montpellier and believe it - the worst team in Top 14 - Agen.  That's suddenly qualifies him for Springbok selection.   And horror by horror he played at full back in that game.  Was that not what Plumtree said in 2013 - that Fatso is not a center at all!!!!   Mozart - why are you always foolish.   

I could see clearly why Erasmus did not trust Esterhuizen as a defender and the fact is he did not bring anything else to the game  despite the three line breaks he made in all matches played  - two of which ended up in possession losses.

I think Erasmus looked at making merit selections and not artificially created merit as is the norm on site.   The fact is that there are problems in the mid-field selection and the answer ahs not been found.  I would rather see that Serfontein and Venter get a chance to see what they can do than the under-performing Esterhuizen and Am .       

AO

Morne was dropped by Meyer in 2012 - because he was a serial flop.  He was not much better in 2013 and the Springboks won some games despite him at flyhalf - but he also contributed massively to the loss against the AB's in Johannesburg.  So what good did he really do? 

2014 was even worse - he was dropped twice as flyhalf by Meyer from the squad and as a braai friend was given a free holiday in the Springbok world cup squad in 2015.   After his brain fart in the Perth test he never started again as Springbok flyhalf - but the brainless scenario continued when Coetzee called him up for two tests in 2017 and he flopped massively in both.

Poor old AO - he has difficulties in accepting facts - so he creates cloud 9 dreams and hope people would fall for it.   

CC

It's annoying because we DO have other options at 12 and 13. 

There are enough players with sufficient size, smarts and skill to replace both the plodders without missing a beat. 

We certainly would have gotten more out of Mapoe and Voster as a combination than these two. That's just one possibility, though a biased one on my part.

That's before even considering Venter, JSVR, Serfontein or Nico Lee.

There are more options. 

Our coaches are idiots that buy into hype just like everybody else.

Edit: Mozart is correct. Both these guys have been given ample chances. You're supposed to refine your game at test level...not learn it. The kicker is... they aren't even learning.

Plum

It is indeed annoying - I wish there were better options - hence my reference to -

*   Serfontein and Venter; as well as

*   my hope that Sage and Visser showed enough in the forthcoming months to bring them into contention.  

Agreed ... it's a hell of a disappointment when you find a player stagnant in his position. Years passes him by and in all that time he's learnt nothing. He's picked up no additional skills ... added nothing to his arsenal ...

He's still the same dull, boring player unable to advance with those around him ... learning nothing at the higher level.

A club player to begin with ... and a club player still.

I wish I could see Vorster and Janse van Rensburg as our midfield pair.  Even Mapoe is a step up.

Well ... maybe we're fortunate in the coming year ... maybe Rassie sees these 4 for what they are and brings in new blood.

KC

Fat Fransie is  flop - even Montpellier played him at full back on Saturday - reminding me of what Plumtree said about him in 2013.  

His center performances were always below par since his return from France in 2012.   He was hopeless in the tests in 2012 and same can be said about him playing at CENTER for the Sharks in 2013 to 2015.   He was so bad that SARU terminated his contract with them in 2015 and he was not offered one by the Sharks.    

He was brought back by Coetzee to play from the bench and could not chase a ball for 40 meters and was totally out of breath and did ZERO  in the test where he came from the bench.

I cannot see how Steyn can help anything at this late stage in his career - if he failed in 2012 and also his last test and was seriously defective on Super Rugby as well - what will make him any better in 2019?      

Out of breath? Like Fat Du Preez and Fat JP who came back from Japan in better shape. You don't have a good track record for honesty in these matters.

Every time you see Frans you must recoil like Mad Madam Mim : "I haaate Fransie!". Mad Mamam Mike. 

Seeing how upset the player makes you, best you don't retrace old steps leading to another exposed lie. The same old lie. They don't improve with age. 

Rooinek

100%  correct about you wrote above about playing players out of position.  I have seen Spies moving from wing to no 8 where in the end he failed.   Another bad example is moving Hougaard from wing to scrummie.   There are numerous other examples that can be mentioned.

Another problem is that some members mention a combination of Janse van Rensburg and Vorster as a center combination, but for some reason or other in 2017 the Lions never us ed them as a combination and when Van Rensburg was available (they use them alternatively at 12 with Mapoe at 13.   I am afraid that Mapoe has as many shortcoming as Am in defense and that effects also defense wider out.

There is one other thing which may interest you and that is that Willemse does have some experience playing at center,    In his first Under 20WC he was playing at 12 and was one of the top players in that series, while Bosch who played at 10 was in fact was not up to scratch.   I think Pollard's weakness at 12 is in defense - but Willemse may in that respect be better at 12.    

AO

I support my comments with facts and I hate NO players,   What I wrote about Steyn is factual - what you dreamt up is BS.   If there was any hatred of players - look at yourself iro players like Du Toit and a lot others, since your standard garbage is aimed at them. 

Mozart

What about the wonderful Fat Fransie - who as a full back sored a wonderful try against Agen on Saturday?