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The expereence reuirements for selection to the Springboks

Started by clevermike18 REPLIES283 VIEWS· 17 Jun 2014, 14:58
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Jun 2014, 14:58
#1
17 Jun 2014, 14:58#1

Much have been said about the need to have experience as a criterium for selection - but very little is said about experienced players requiring to perform as well.   Matter of fact experience without adequate all-round performance is really a liability and not abnn asset.


If we look at the experience and performance factor in respect of rugby played this year it is clear that in general the following experienced players who played in the test on Saturday showed real performance as well - not only in the test against Wales, but also in the preceding game and in Super 15-


Willie le Roux,  JP Pietersen (as a wing),  Bryan Habana, Fourie du Preez,  Duane Vermeulen, Francois Louw, Bismarck du Plessis.


The following experienced players showed limited of very little abilities in all-round performance:-


Morne Steyn,  Willem Alberts, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Jannie du Plessis, Gurthro Stenkamp 


I think to the list of experienced players we can add the following:-


Jean de Villiers, Patrick Lambie, Tendai Mtawarire, Adriaan Strauss 


We therefore has a core of 11 players who are experienced enough with more than ten tests to their credit and the need to look for alternatives are really limited.  Now lets look at the alternatives:-


Full Back


Aside4 from Willie le Roux the situation is really very good.   I would say that we have two flyhalfs-com- full backs that could provide cover  here, namely Pat Lambie and Marnitz Boshoff, as well as Lwazi Mvovo


Wings


Here there are really no problem as well.  The core wings are Bryan Habana and JP Pietersen.   We have a number of back-up wings of which Lwazi Mvovo, Cornal Hendricks, JJ Engelbrecht and even players like Paul Jordaan can be selected.  I like the little bit I have seen of Hendricks - but I think he would not make the grade in future.  No problems in respct of the wings either.


Centers


Here we have a serious problem in particular with the 13 position.   We are adequately covered in the number 12 position, with Jean de Villiers   and Jan Serfontein in the immediate future and Andre Esterhuizen in the longer term.


In respect of the 13 position - the last two players at 13  (aside from Pietersen) have been JJ Engelbrecht and Jacque Fourie.  Both showed reasonable defensive abilities (Engeklbrecht was better than he was in 2013) - but both showed zero in attacking abilities.  Engelnbrecht shows nothing other than he is a fast and effective as a wing, while Fourie is as slow as a carthorse and way past his best performing years.


The only real option is to play Damian de Allende at 13.   The alternatives are limited and I would say in the longer term players like Jesse Kriel and Paul Jordaan could be the back up 13's.  


Flyhalfs


Despite all the h7ype after the game on Saturday - Morne Steyn  played a very limited role in teh abckline performances of the Springboks.  He was told to pass the ball - and he passed the ball.   His defense was putrid and he never really played a role in any attacking play. That came after a seriously defective performance the previous week and the horro stry at Stade Francais.


I would still say the flyhalf answer could be the following players:-


Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen,  Handre Pollard and Marnitz Boshoff.


No problem at all in that position - all the mentioned player are way better than the pedestrian Morne Steyn would ever be.


Scrummies


Here we have a problem - both the present scrummies - Fourie du Preez and Ruan Pienaar - are on the wrong side of 30 even though adequate at present - they are at an age where they are subject to more injuries and declining performances.  I would say that Meyer should slowly blend in players like Cobus Reinach, Faf de Klerk, Nic Groom and Francois Hougaard to take over in future .


No 8


Here we have Duane Vermeulen with potential backup to be provuded by Arno Botha and Philip van der Walt.   


No 7


The present incumbent is Willem Alberts - a one-dimensional player with a serious speed deficiency and no abilities insofar as all-round loose forward play is concerned.  He is hyped up as a sound tackler. Being slow - his tackling is limited and at times seriously deficient.  The same applies to his ball carrying capacity, whilst his ball protection, ball recovery and ball handling is non-existent.


The alternatives are numerous and include Arno Botha and Lappies Labushagne, while locks like Pieter-Steph du Toit and Jacques Du Plessis  are also potential candidates.  Another candidate is Schalk Burger, but he is unlikely to last in view of nagging injury problems and he is also at an age where those problems will not easily go away.   


No 6


Francois Louw remains the top candidate and the back up is no doubt Marcell Coetzee.   I do not think that Heinrich Brussow will make the grade in future and 

Kolisi has been a disaster this year.  I like Jaco Kriel as a future potential loosie very much.


Locks


Here we have Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield.   Botha was deficient in the Scottish test last year and just about average in the French test.  He was sub-par on Saturday - virtually invisible.   He is obviously past it and should be shortlisted for immediate replacement.   Matfield is still adequate in line out play - but in his heyday he took many opposition thro-ins which he does not d anymore.  The rest of his tighyt 5 play is seriously deficient and he should also be written off as an investment in future.


We are particularly blessed with very good younger locks than brings much more to the game than the two present players, namely -


Eben Etzebeth,  Lood de Jager, Flip van der Merwe, Pieter-Steph du Toit and in the longer term  Paul Willenmse, Jacques du Plessis,  Stephan Lewies and JP Schckerling.   More than enough to choose from and the present two should be replaced asap.


Props


There is no way that players like Gurthro Steenkamp and Jannie du Plessis should be retained as Springboks.   The list of props available are long and is lead by players who are already Springboks and really better performers than the above two.


Hookers


Bismarck du Plessis and Adriaan Strauss are still the ebst two hookers in World Rugby and I particularly like what i saw of Marx for the future.


CONCLUSION


The core team of experienced players ais in place - but the replacement of a few non-performers and limited capacity players would strengthen the Springbok team and could end up as the number 1 team in world rugby.    

   


 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Jun 2014, 15:35
#2
17 Jun 2014, 15:35#2
 Good summary Mike. Hopefully Schalk is good for the world cup.From now until world Cup Meyer must try and introduce the yong blood and give them experience without loosing tests. It's a fine balance. I think the success of Jan and Loodt could help him get the balance right.
I think we could take number 1 this year but 2015 latest.
With Etzebeth, Flip, Loodt and Du Toit and Willemse all fit I cant see the need for old timer locks - if one could ever call matfiled a lock.
I think Malherbe, Kitshoff and Marcell will make it. We are not even thinking of guys like Elstadt and Rhodes who make pretty useful 7s.Brussouw could understduy Louw. Is there a place for Whitely (105kg)
Sadie gets better each season etc etc.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Jun 2014, 15:48
#3
17 Jun 2014, 15:48#3

The only experienced players that need to form the core of the Bok side are JP, Habana, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Brussouw, Louw and Vermeulen.......the rest are liabilities standing in the way of far better youngsters.

 

Serfontein proved that at 12 and Lood did the same   

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
17 Jun 2014, 17:26
#4
17 Jun 2014, 17:26#4
 clevermike......Bambie has had his chance.

Pollard is the guy that has all the skills , balls and class to fill the fly-half spot for the Boks.
Frans will be back and he will cover for Willie if needed.
Saffex agree with your experience player retention....the rest must be gone asap.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Jun 2014, 17:43
#5
17 Jun 2014, 17:43#5
 Arthur John
I specifically did not mention Francois Steyn.   He has had his chances for the Sharks this year and was poor at center.   He was not much better at flyhalf.
His wobbly knee is a problem - it reduces his speed and he is to my mind too slow to be a full back - partly because of the speed deficiency and his extremely questionable defense - the latter problem also possibly a reslt of his knee problem.
After his latest debacle it is indeed doubtful whether Meyer would want him back.  Meyer is not - I believe - the unforgiving kind - and he is not going to forget how Steyn let him down at the last possible minute.   
Another problem is he is off to Japan and based on experiences thus far will come back a slower and less-fit player than he is at this stage .
Like you said about Lambie - I think Steyn has had his chances.      


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Jun 2014, 17:47
#6
17 Jun 2014, 17:47#6
Same old rubbish by all the guys who were saying the Bok team was a disaster last week. Not one new thought.
KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
17 Jun 2014, 18:44
#7
17 Jun 2014, 18:44#7
 Ja Uncle Classical Piano.  Daai's soos 'n seven single that got stuck, round and round she goes making the same unintelligent noises over and over.  Laat hulle nog daai kak glo is 'n wonderwerk.
But you need guys like them to make the world an interesting place , nê.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Jun 2014, 20:00
#8
17 Jun 2014, 20:00#8
Moz who will have the last laugh come the RC???????  
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
17 Jun 2014, 20:34
#9
17 Jun 2014, 20:34#9
2016 Bok lossies and reserve,,,

6 nizaam carr, 7 jacques du plessis, 8 arno botha
20 lubabal mtembu

4 superstars of the highest order, i wouoldnt have any problems with this lot being in the Boks team for the RWC, only vermeulen would still be my 8, meaning botha to the bench and mtembu out all together.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Jun 2014, 22:33
#10
17 Jun 2014, 22:33#10
 Mozart
Nobody says the team of last week was not successful - but there are players around that can improve the team further - even though you refuse to recognise that fact. There are still weaknesses in the team as well - even if some players did reasonably well on Saturday - but failed badly previously. 
Morne Steyn was poor a week ago and a disastrous signing for Stade Francais.   Toulouse will not play Steenkamp in their starting line up and in virtually every game they were forced to do so - they lost the games.   Botha showed nothing to justify his selection in three tests he was involved in over the last seven months.  Matfield is a one show pony - in line outs - but he is not as good as he used to be and the balls he takes every other decent lock will take as well.   He does not produce anything in tight play - so he weakens the tight 5.   Janne du Plessis has been poor in Super 15, a disaster the previous week and even this week not really strong enough and the scrums retreated on his side of the scrum.   Alberts is not a loosie and he loafs around in tight play standing behind the mauls - too slow to do anything in ball protection and recovery.
You said De Jager is not Springbok quality - yet when he was given a chance he proved you totally wrong and was better than Botha was last Saturday.   The same is true of a lot of younger players you constantly run down.  Give then a chance and they would show why the players mentioned in the previous paragraph should not be anywhere near the Springbok squad.           
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Jun 2014, 23:15
#11
17 Jun 2014, 23:15#11
Be a bit more adventu rous against Wales. Call up Reinach and have Du Preez on bench. Give Marcell a chance. Start with Burger see how he goes.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
17 Jun 2014, 23:17
#12
17 Jun 2014, 23:17#12
Springboks have been very efficient and clinical in the two victories thus far this year. That is what experience brings. Calm under pressure, knowing how to take your chances.
Perhaps the only real disappointment from Saturday is that we looked to run out of gas in the last 10 with poor effort on the Cuthbert try and we failed to score there at the end of the match when we were knocking on the door phase after phase and when Vermuelen finally broke through there was no support. Fitness level is still not where it should be - a notch below NZ, AUS, and England as well  - but that could easily be a result of being overplayed as much as anything. 
Bissie is in need of a break - would be so nice to be able to throw Strauss in there for a game - and Jannie is well overdue. You know they are going to be played every minute of every Sharks game after the June internationals in a bid for homefield advantage in the playoffs. Question must be asked what these Sharks chaps will have left for RC. Maybe the Scotland game will see a bunch of changes.



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Jun 2014, 12:25
#13
18 Jun 2014, 12:25#13
Oimate you seem to be beating the same ignorant drum as our clueless coach.....no doubt that when this sad excuse of a Bok side gets its arse kicked against Oz and NZ, you will go awol?  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Jun 2014, 12:41
#14
18 Jun 2014, 12:41#14
 Saffex
There is one thing obvious here insofar as Mozart is concerned.   Whenever anybody mentions a player that may threaten his favourites in the Springbok team - he goes into discrediting mode and he starts to find even mythical problems with their performances.  The list is virtually endless.  If there is no apparent deficiencies he invents them
His disparaging of Etzebeth went on until after his sixth or seventh tests.  He went on the rampage against Serfontein and De Jager and countless others.  No players younger than 25 is routinely acceptable to him and he prefers the over 30 "experienced" players - irrespective of whether they performs well or not.
The same attitude is apparent in the case of Meyer.  He only brings in younger players when forced to do so.  Despite being brilliant in the June and RC tests in 2013 - Meyer dropped Le Roux to the bench n the Welsh test in the EOYT in 2013.   He only went back to Le Roux when Morne was injured in that test and then retained him in the rest of the tests.    Whether he will retain Serfontein and De Jager is another question.  His hand will be forced in the case of Serfontein - but what is going to happen in the case of De Jager after his really top class start?  We will have to wait and see. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
18 Jun 2014, 14:54
#15
18 Jun 2014, 14:54#15


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11220 RE: The expereence reuirements for selection to the Springboks
June 18, 2014, 10:41:50  Saffex
There is one thing obvious here insofar as Mozart is concerned.   Whenever anybody mentions a player that may threaten his favourites in the Springbok team - he goes into discrediting mode and he starts to find even mythical problems with their performances
Says he who  is a permanent resident of the DPFA (Discrediting and Problem Finding Asylum).



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Jun 2014, 15:17
#16
18 Jun 2014, 15:17#16
Wow Vlagshit you are soooooooooooo clever.......you must be proud........how long did it take your Dutch brain to come up with that one? Weeks or months......be a sport and be honest for once?
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
18 Jun 2014, 18:15
#17
18 Jun 2014, 18:15#17
@saffex,

u make me LMAO so much with ur i dont give a F attitude, un remind me of mark hunt the super samoan only the blogging version,

but my line of thinking is very similar to yours, but i find oimateys reasoning to be thoughtful, logical and something seriously worth pondering, same goes with ceradyne but his main interest is his continued bromance with mikey which is sometimes funny, but a little too obsessive.

i dont think this Bok team will do anything against the All Blacks, or even the wallabies for that matter, but the Boks arent playing those teams and the current line ups are more then enough to get the job done.

meyer IMO just dosent have the balance sorted yet where he can
A) field a team capable of beating the current opposition
B) bring in new talent/give inexperinced capped players a chance to grow

agaisnt a team like the wlesh who are out of form and missing so many key players, meyer could have afforded to do more of B), instead he chose to bring out older players and get game time into them ASAP.

meyer has clearly showed his hand before the RWC, banking more on the older veterans, instead of trusting the power of youth.

i do like the idea of stacking fixtures with easy beat teams the way the Boks have done in 2013 and 2014, IMO the All Blacks should do the same next year in the RWC year, give us easy peasy tests in june which we can breeze through.
that way, players can get a good run without fear of losing andf blow out the cobwebs, while using the RC/4nats as the final test before RWC glory.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
18 Jun 2014, 19:23
#18
18 Jun 2014, 19:23#18
 Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8142 RE: The expereence reuirements for selection to the Springboks
June 18, 2014, 13:17:16 Wow Vlagshit you are soooooooooooo clever.......you must be proud........how long did it take your Dutch brain to come up with that one? Weeks or months......be a sport and be honest for once?




Got it in the blink of an eye.


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
18 Jun 2014, 23:12
#19
18 Jun 2014, 23:12#19
 Beeno said .... Hopefully Schalk is good for the world cup. My friend are you going down sentimental lane...all hasbeenos but with respect...old soldiers that are spent...time for new blood...You and Mozzie I respect but recalling soldiers from 2011 and dare I say it 2007 is pushing it down this avenue.

Time to move on!
— END OF THREAD —

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