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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Graeme Smith - Quinton de Koxk saga

The Graeme Smith - Quinton de Koxk saga

Started by clevermike45 REPLIES1,104 VIEWS· 22 Oct 2017, 19:03
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2017, 19:03
#1
22 Oct 2017, 19:03#1

In 2013 the Proteas was playing test and ODI cricket  in the Gulf States against Pakistan.  It was a five game ODI series and the Proteas managed a win in the first game and a bad loss in the second game.    The team got lucky and Smith had to come back to SA for some reason or another,   He was replaced by De Kock as opening batsman and  the Proteas won the remaining three ODI's  with ease.   Unlike in the case of Smith De Kocj was batting at a high strike rate and making oodles of runs.
After that series the Pakistani's came to SA to play three ODI's.   Smith was back in the team and flop badly in the first two ODI's - this was not helped along by the  fact that both Graeme smith and Jacques Kallis flopped in the said two ODI's.    De Kock was recalled to the team and the Proteas easily won the third ODI as a result of a major batting contribution by De Kock.
At the time I started writing about De Kock on the site and to support his permanent selection as opening batsman in ODI games.   I even went so far to use a pic of him as my avatar.    Mozart went livid - how can anyone wants the great Graeme Smith out of the team and the started the lie about  me being a pervert.
For the next two years De Kock was constantly belittled by Mozart and while watching cricket today I decided to do a comparison between the career stats of Graeme Smith  and those of De Kock in the 4 years since 2013.
Graeme Smith
ODIs 197 194 10 6989 141 37.98 8648 80.81 10 47 788 44 105 0
So what is important about the above:-
Games played  and batted  - 194Batting average                 -  37,98Strike Rate                        -  80,81Centuries made                  - 1050's made                          - 46
Most of Smith's positives was in the period before 2010 - after that he deteriorated badly.  
Quinton de Kock


ODIs 88 88 5 3806 178 45.85 4022 94.62 13 15 430 55 115 6

Games played  and batted  - 88Batting average                 - 45,85Centuries made                 -  1350's made                        -  16  (I added today's half- century)
De Kock is regarded as one of the top ODI players in the world despite the Mozart denigration of the guy.   He has the highest conversion rate in half-centuries into centuries ever in world ODI cricket.
Despite all the attacks by Mozart it is clear from the above  that De Kock is a cricketing great and Graeme Smith a pretender.        
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
23 Oct 2017, 06:37
#2
23 Oct 2017, 06:37#2

As per usual..... normal bullsh!t  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2017, 07:52
#3
23 Oct 2017, 07:52#3
Is Smith's stats BS?   fact is the above is serious reflection of what really happenedats to Moz art and his personal; attacks.   
However that was not the real reason for the posting.   the real reason was to remind Mozart of his misrepresentations on De Kock which lasted for years.      



BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
23 Oct 2017, 08:01
#4
23 Oct 2017, 08:01#4
Lets approach this from a different angle. Moz, do you rate De Kock or not? 
Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
23 Oct 2017, 09:43
#5
23 Oct 2017, 09:43#5
is this worth reading anyone?
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Oct 2017, 10:26
#6
23 Oct 2017, 10:26#6
 No not really Flash.....it's quite obvious Mike is once again trolling, same old, same old, we all know the inevitable outcome where he'll be looking for everyone's sympathy because so and so is trying to rip him off the board.
That said, I've mentioned this previously, Mike never did like Smithy.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
23 Oct 2017, 10:40
#7
23 Oct 2017, 10:40#7

Mike has never liked Smith


Take into account what some of those inning's that Smith made, did for SA, in the overall scheme of things.


But wait.... Mike will be wailing just now, because some people responded to his baiting, and now they are ganging up on him again and being mean to him .

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:35
#8
23 Oct 2017, 11:35#8
Single biggest contribution was taking over the captaincy at a tender age when the team was in a crisis. 
Just wonder how anyone can be so callous and full of hatred for Smithy who did so much for our cricket.
My lasting impression of Smithy is when they cut the caste protecting his hand so as to face the thunderbolts of Mitchel l Johnson.
Smithy walked out to a standing ovation from a knowledgeable Sydney cricket fraternity.....it made me feel so proud of our cricket and more importantly to be a South African.
Mike...go and kak yourself!
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:42
#9
23 Oct 2017, 11:42#9
Michael Johnson. In his time, the fastest bowler over 100, 200, 300 and 400 metres.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:44
#10
23 Oct 2017, 11:44#10
 Yep, shoul d read Mitchell....tx.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:47
#11
23 Oct 2017, 11:47#11
"Michael Johnson. In his time, the fastest bowler over 100, 200, 300 and 400 metres."

LMAO!

Good one Ceradunce!

This is the kind of humour that gets generated when cricket noobs try to sound knowledgeable . . .
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:54
#12
23 Oct 2017, 11:54#12
 The difference is, I acknowledge the error, a rarity on this platform....you I know will never, others will overflow into excuses. 
As for being a noob.....have another go, no-one is buying your BS besides I'm still patiently waiting for a cricket post, one that has a bit of substance. 
"Golden Rule" How's that going? Bwhahahahahahhaha
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2017, 11:57
#13
23 Oct 2017, 11:57#13
 The stats so far appear to supporting Mike's contention that De Kock is better than Smith  Can' t argue with those figures.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Oct 2017, 12:09
#14
23 Oct 2017, 12:09#14
 Can't argue with those figures.
Exactly right but that's hardly what's at issue here, is it now?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2017, 13:33
#15
23 Oct 2017, 13:33#15
 The whole point is clear as daylight if the defebnse attorneys of Mozarrt is to blind to see that.  
This has nothing to do with Smith's carreer and his taking over the captaincy.   It had top do with the fact that after 2011 and even in the 211 WC he became a liability rather than an asset.
The problem arose when the situation as to to Smith and De Kock arose. When I suggested that Smith be replaced and used his photo as my  avatar Mozart went ballistic and start calling me a pervert because how dare I call for De Kock to replace Smith.
He kept up for the next three years his campaign against De kock and camer up with all sort of tubbish reasons as to why De kockl is a failure.   His statements included that De Kock cannot face good bowling - either fast or spin bowling - and that he score big against weak bowing.   There was no real reason for that type of garbage since De Kock made centuries against most of the top countries.  
Mozart use past postings of members to expose them to ridicule and denigration - yet when the bootis on the other foot his minions do  not like it.
I have nothing against Smoith as a cricketer - although I do not share the opinion that he was top class - he was a very average batsman and after initial jitters developed into a decent captain until the WC in 2011 when he did not have the decency to  conme back to SA and dealt with the serious team failure in that series.   ,  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2017, 13:39
#16
23 Oct 2017, 13:39#16
Was Mitchell Johnson in the 2000 RWC?
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Oct 2017, 13:49
#17
23 Oct 2017, 13:49#17
No, Mitchell Johnson played in the 2010 Super 14 final between the Sharks and the Bulls. I’m not sure but he played openside fullback, according to Mike. He knows because he said that he can clearly remember the game.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2017, 13:54
#18
23 Oct 2017, 13:54#18
 another diversion of Mozart and his BSting minions = what a lark.   It isclear Mozart - who never wrote a positive comment on De Koxk yet and  he is as prejudiced as he always is about sportsmen.    he cannot take a real case wherehe Bwrote constant BS on the site.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2017, 13:55
#19
23 Oct 2017, 13:55#19
Hahaha... .....but I’m wondering is Quinton de Koxk another player or simply the correct terminology when Quinton is wearing a box.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
23 Oct 2017, 14:29
#20
23 Oct 2017, 14:29#20
Ceradyne

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6447 RE: The Graeme Smith - Quinton de Koxk saga
October 23, 2017, 13:49:36

No, Mitchell Johnson played in the 2010 Super 14 final between the Sharks and the Bulls. I’m not sure but he played openside fullback, according to Mike. He knows because he said that he can clearly remember the game.

 

Well there it is then


If Mike remembers that game in 2010, then it definitely happened.


Much like I remember Namibia winning the 2000 RWC.........  Senegal fought so hard.





CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Oct 2017, 15:33
#21
23 Oct 2017, 15:33#21
I will let you in on another secret that I learnt from Ou Maaikie, DA. Don’t let anybody teach you anything else. It was definitely the UK that colonised the Cape in 1795.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
23 Oct 2017, 15:37
#22
23 Oct 2017, 15:37#22
 Smith was a pretender?
By those standards I don't think anyone has ever managed mediocrity.
Mike, how about rather saying that both players are class acts. We don't yet have the benefit of judging Quinton's entire career as we do Smith's. Not much more to it. 
It always seems to be an either/or situation here. Remember there exists this totally mysterious phenomenon called "both".

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
23 Oct 2017, 15:46
#23
23 Oct 2017, 15:46#23
 Also Mike, and I'm not taking sides but Mozart has spoken positively about De Clock( :) ) before. Can't be bothered to find the thread but if I remember correctly, it was after a game where only two of our guys well. 
Just saying.

Anyway, can't you have an opinion that exists separately your to Moz?
Here's an example...
PSDT is a mobile lock and I'm sure he'll only get better.

Which is so much better than...
PSDT is so much better than Matfield who Moz idolizes because Moz is a noob who knows nothing about rugby.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
23 Oct 2017, 16:09
#24
23 Oct 2017, 16:09#24
Ceradyne

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6450 RE: The Graeme Smith - Quinton de Koxk saga
October 23, 2017, 15:33:06

I will let you in on another secret that I learnt from Ou Maaikie, DA. Don’t let anybody teach you anything else. It was definitely the UK that colonised the Cape in 1795.

 

I distinctly remember that...


Funny stuff indeed


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2017, 16:10
#25
23 Oct 2017, 16:10#25
 Plum 
How many times have Mozart on this site use opinions expressed on this site by members to belittle them when it did bit work out/   I have never ever said anything about a player other than his performances  should be looked at carefully with a view to future selections.
Mozart used the strategy to drive members of the site like happened in the case of Dave.
I was just using his own strategy in this case and his minions went ballistic.       
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
23 Oct 2017, 16:12
#26
23 Oct 2017, 16:12#26
Plum

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1728 RE: The Graeme Smith - Quinton de Koxk saga
October 23, 2017, 15:37:15

Smith was a pretender?

 

Yeah Plum


According to Mike he was


What a load of shyte, but one has to take these comments from where it comes


Mike is incapable of giving much respect to some legends of our national sports, which is both sad and childish.


So be it




CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Oct 2017, 16:31
#27
23 Oct 2017, 16:31#27
 "Yeah Plum

According to Mike he was


What a load of shyte, but one has to take these comments 

from where it comes


Mike is incapable of giving 

much respect to some legends 

of our national sports, which is both sad and childish.


So be it"


Will we ever s ee this kind of accolades coming QDK's way, especially from the foreign media? Only time will tell. My guess is that the chances are fairly slim but let's wait and see.

Graeme Smith: English cricket's biggest foe says farewell

By Sam Sheringham & Stephan Shemilt

BBC Sport


Before the first Test at Edgbaston in 2003, England captain Nasser Hussain

 was so unfamiliar with his young South Africa counterpart Graeme Smith

 that he introduced him to the match referee as "Greg".

 

By the end of the match Hussain had been so scarred by the 22-year-old's

 brilliance that he promptly walked out of the job.

 

Smith's innings of 277 and 85 in Birmingham set a pattern for his career as

he saved some of his very best performances for tours of England while

wearing down his opposite numbers in the process.

 

The Johannesburg-born left-hander, who retired from international

cricket on Wednesday, followed up his Edgbaston marathon with another

 double hundred at Lord's and went on to claim a hat-trick of England

captains as both Michael Vaughan in 2008 and Andrew Strauss in 2012 quit

 following series defeats in which Smith was influential.

 

Vaughan told BBC Radio 5 live: "He's been a tremendous player for South

 Africa and an incredible leader.

 

"Whatever the situation, you always felt he was trying to grab the initiative

 in his way. He would always take on the best bowler in the opposition."

 

While England skippers came and went, Smith's longevity has seen him

 captain in a world-record 109 Test matches - 108 for South Africa and one

 for a World XI. Of the eight men to have led South Africa since their

readmission, he has skippered more Tests than the other seven put together.

 

When Smith took the job from Shaun Pollock, he had only eight Tests to his

name. South Africa had just been knocked out of their home World Cup in

 the first round and the spectre of Hansie Cronje, who died a year earlier,

still hung over the Proteas.

 

Though his final series against Australia has ended in defeat, Smith leaves his

side at the top of the world rankings. They have not lost a series away from

home in eight years and the loss to Australia - so nearly avoided by a

Smith-like rearguard on the final day - is only their second in 26 overall.

 

"He was very mature for his age when he came into the team," said Pollock.

 "His big physique created a certain presence in the changing room and on

 the field.

 

"Some criticised him for being brash, but he backed up his positive attitude

 with one great performance after another.

 

"Like all great sporting captains, Graeme led from the front. His own

character enveloped the team and he established a wonderful rapport

with team-mates. He is not going to be easily replaced."

 

Smith's style was to lead from the front. In Test history, only India's

Sunil Gavaskar has scored more runs opening the batting than Smith's 9,265.

When South Africa made 414-4 - the second highest run chase in Test history

 - to beat Australia in Perth in 2008, Smith got a hundred. When the Proteas

 stunned the same opposition with a world-record one-day international chase

of 434 in 2006, Smith set the tone with 90 from 55 balls.

 

But there wasn't just run-scoring in glorious victory - there was also bravery

 in defeat.

 

On the 2008-09 tour of Australia, Smith had already taken South Africa to

their first series win down under when he broke his hand in the first

innings of the final Test.

 

On the fifth day, with Australia were closing in on victory, South Africa lost

their ninth wicket with 8.2 overs remaining. Match over? Not for Smith.

 

Even though he was unable to dress himself, the captain walked out at number

 11 in a bid to defy Mitchell Johnson. He lasted for 17 balls and, when he was

finally bowled by Johnson, there were only five minutes and 10 deliveries left

in the match.

 

"He went out of his way to make sure he proved to his team-mates that he

was the leader," said Vaughan.

 

"He irritated the opposition, including myself, but you always felt that he was

 right in charge of that unit."

 

It was presence, as much as technique, that saw Smith force his way to second

 on the list of South Africa's all-time Test run-scorers, behind Jacques Kallis,

and 12th in the world overall.

 

With a closed-faced, around-the-front-pad style that was as unattractive as

 the baggy jumper he often wore, Smith's sheer force of will somehow forced

 opposing attacks to bowl to his strengths.

 

It was an approach that baffled England more than most. An average of 56.97

 against England was only bettered by the 69.26 amassed against West Indies.

 On his last tour in 2012, Strauss's men even began the first morning of a

 

Test match with five men on the leg side.

 

"He always looked so ugly, so terrible, so unpleasing to the eye," said

 former England off-spinner Graeme Swann. "Yet, he was so hard to bowl

 at."

 

Vaughan, who took over as England captain in between Smith's twin double

 centuries of 2003, said: "In that series, I think we had about eight meetings

 on how to try to get him out.

 

"If we bowled straight he would hit us through the on-side. Did we bowl

wide because he supposedly couldn't play through the off-side? He still

found a way."

The shock of 33-year-old Smith's retirement now forces South Africa to

confront a problem that almost reared its head three years ago.

 

In 2011, following a World Cup quarter-final defeat by New Zealand, he

gave up the one-day captaincy and had to be talked out of quitting the Test

 job by coach Gary Kirsten.

 

The decision proved a wise one as Smith, in his very next Test, scored an

unbeaten 101 to help South Africa to an eight-wicket win over Australia

despite a 188-run first-innings deficit.

 

Indeed, though his final series against the Baggy Greens has earned Smith just

 45 runs in six innings, as recently as October he was scoring a match-winning

 234 against Pakistan in Dubai.

 

Now, the new leader, be it AB de Villiers or Faf du Plessis, must take the

Proteas forward without Smith and Kallis, who retired in December.

 

Between them, they scored 22,554 runs and took 369 catches in 283 Tests.

 Their combined total of 300 wickets is rounded up by eight from Smith's

mechanical off-breaks.

 

"They have been stuck in concrete in the slips for so many years, intimidating

 a batsman as you look behind," said Vaughan.

 

"Now, whoever ends up being there will not have the same presence as

Graeme Smith and Jacques Kallis."

 

Although the suddenness of Smith's retirement, after three days of the

Newlands Test, caught many by surprise, there had been signs that he was

planning to wind down his career.

 

Smith married Irish singer Morgan Deane in August 2011 and was granted Irish

citizenship in January. Four weeks ago he posted photos on Instagram of his

wife with their two young children at the home in Ireland with the caption:

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2017, 20:15
#28
23 Oct 2017, 20:15#28
 No amount of quoting newspaper articles = dofdoos .   Look at the stats of the two players and tell me who is the better opening batsman of the two. 
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
23 Oct 2017, 22:10
#29
23 Oct 2017, 22:10#29
CM I have no idea why you are hitting on Smith as I honestly enjoyed his batting and I also thought he was a classy skipper.
Surely there are other players who are below par internationally who could do with your guidance and advice as opposed to a retired Proteas skipper and opening bat.
Granted de Kock is also a good cricketer but do you honestly believe that he has the personality and skill to lead the Proteas and follow in the footsteps of Smith even in ODI's .
I certainly do not think so. 
Perhaps you could compare de Kock to D Lindsay, J Waite, Jennings etc but not Smith.
Give credit where credit is due.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Oct 2017, 00:47
#30
24 Oct 2017, 00:47#30
 AJ
Smith was replaced by de Kock who is obviously a better batsman than Smith was. This situation goes back to 2013 when Mozart went livid when I suggested that De Kock should replace Smith after his constant disasters after 2011 in ODI's.
When I for a short while used a pic of De Kock ad he went madder then usual and started the pervert story which persisted with him since then.
He still refer to opinions I expressed about  players coming through which I stated clearly that their performances must be followed since they may make the grade to be selected on higher level .   His strategy is to try and belittle members that way and has driven Dave off the site through that,     I was just giving him a bit of his own medicine.
      
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Oct 2017, 01:05
#31
24 Oct 2017, 01:05#31
Okay.....let’s have the truth: .... Mozart- what do you think of Quinton de Kock Clevermike . Status: Hall Of Fame Posts: 27649 Mozart - what do you think of Quinton de Kock December 08, 2013, 21:41:11 Did you watch the last two ODI's against India? De Kock recently played in 6 ODI's opening the batting instead of Graham Smith. In the two games he played in with Smith opening - De Kock came in as number 3 batter. The reason was that the openers were batting very slowly and he had to up the tempo and went out earlier than normal. When opening he had time to read the pitch and play himself in - when coming in a 3 with the openers batting at a below par rpo he does not have that luxury. Be it as it may the youngster - he is only 20 years old - in the 8 matches made 508 runs, inclusive of three centuries (against Pakistan 112 runs in Abu Dhabi) and against India 135 and 106 in the last two ODI's. It gives him an average of 63 runs in the 8 ODI's. He is the youngest SA player ever to score a century in ODI's - leave alone scoring 3 over a period of 4 weeks. He has as yet not scored a half-century in ODI's. Looks very promising to me. What do you think? Chippo . Status: Bok regular Posts: 1250 RE: Mozart - what do you think of Quinton de Kock December 10, 2013, 00:58:17 Excellent Protea in the making. Had my eye on him since he made his first class debut for North West. Hope he can translate that ODI form into test matches. Gilly Mach II? ..... Mozart . Status: Hall Of Fame Posts: 21839 RE: Mozart - what do you think of Quinton de Kock December 16, 2013, 01:37:43 Play him. I watched some tapes again today....this kid's timing is superb.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Oct 2017, 01:11
#32
24 Oct 2017, 01:11#32
Phew! That must hurt.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Oct 2017, 05:54
#33
24 Oct 2017, 05:54#33
 What is all the above jargon about?    It has nothing to do with ODI's where the issue is about.   De Kock never batted at 7 in ODI's,    But you obviously does not know the difference between tests and ODI's.    
You were never supporting De Kock when he replaced Smith as opener - that was what this was about,   True - no amount of lies and doctored quotes would help.    
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Oct 2017, 06:11
#34
24 Oct 2017, 06:11#34
 Graeme Smith is probably one of the greatest sportsmen South Africa has ever produced. Right up there with the other greats. Yes, his form dipped shortly prior to his retirement, but that does not diminish his achievements. Maaik is not the only one that does not seem to recognize this. I've come across a few people who can't stand him. The same for some of our other sporting heroes. I've got a theory about that and some other unique SA issues, but that's another thread.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Oct 2017, 12:42
#35
24 Oct 2017, 12:42#35
 I have no problem with Graeme Smith at all other than history has proved he was not all great of a batsman.   I dealt with ODI performances above and that does not mean he was not a top sportsmen.   However, Smith had a serious batting deficiency which in limited overs matches reduced his value as a player.
In that regard he was limited to play virtually all the time and the opposing teams bottled up the limited area through field placings.  This did not happen earlier in his career - but became very pronounced in ODI's from 2011 onwards.   In his last few ODI's his strike rate was even less than 50.  
That is why by November-December 2013 I suggested that he should be replaced as ODI player.   He was and replaced by De Kock and the latter is a player with total different approach and batting ability as was already proved by the stats.
You still think this has to do with the two players it has to do wth M ozart's acidity as to some other members.  
 


 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Oct 2017, 12:56
#36
24 Oct 2017, 12:56#36
‘Graeme Smith a pretender’ .....now you suddenly have no problem with him. Which is it Tokkie?
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
24 Oct 2017, 13:04
#37
24 Oct 2017, 13:04#37
 Mike, stop whining....it's not a life or death issue.
Here's the slowdown.
Smith was technically flawed.....everyone knows it, even blind Frikkie. Strong on the legside but flawed when it came to an out-swinger on his off-stump. It became more noticeable once the opposition had him sussed. Even so he played with guts and determination. Unlike a young Quinton he had the extra responsibility of the captaincy but that aside he handled his stay at the crease with a sense of responsibility and with sheer guts and determination. I agree, he was exposed in the limited version of the game, moreso towards the later part of his career.
Happy now? 
Quinnie.
He became the next best thing when he hit the scene but he had a stumble and after a great start he became streaky motivating some to have doubts about his technique and temperament. That said, you cannot compare two players when one starts his career with one who is at the end of his career. He is a great find for SA'n cricket and I'll say it again, he is world class and without a doubt has a better batting ODI average than Smith and is an adequate replacement for Smith particularly in the ODI format.
This is my last say on the matter......drone away to your heart's content I will not respond.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
24 Oct 2017, 13:10
#38
24 Oct 2017, 13:10#38
"Here's the slowdown."

LMAO!

Yes, it's definitely a "slowdown" (sic), Dense!
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
24 Oct 2017, 13:23
#39
24 Oct 2017, 13:23#39
 Spellcheck Nazi....while you're at it, sort this will you....

Please give me a shout of it's still too much of a challenge for you.
Bwhahahahahahhaa
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Oct 2017, 15:33
#40
24 Oct 2017, 15:33#40
 Mozart
Battiong wise in ODI's he was a pretender.   And you were against the change when Smith was dropped in 2013  to make way for De Kock.   Your BS at the time was an all-round record level.    
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