The great North experiment

The great North experiment For years we have been debating whether we should abandon the super rugby for greener European club rugby. Recently in the media it has been reported that the cheetahs and Kings might head north. Not a bad idea if you ask me but how would it work? Suggested tournament is the pro 12. Most of these teams are pretty decent and would give SA a good run for their money. The other is the challenge cup. It is the sub contest of the champions cup (Heineken cup) After looking at both competition make up I think both provide pros and cons The pro 12 plays home and away. The sa teams would have probably do at least 4 trips north and play 4 games on the trott. That would mean that they would be away from home for at least 4 months and rack more than 100 000 km The challenge cup has fewer games but play a proper tournament format with home and away. Which mean they would get at least 3 games away and 3 games at home. The knock outs are also home and away and if they would progress then they would get a minimum of 2 games. The winner go through on aggregate. To me the challenge cup makes more sense then the pro 12 and the winner of this tournament gets automatic qualification to the Heineken cup the following season

KC, that would be a really good option for the Kings and Cheetahs, assuming they are the two SA team to be dropped from Super Rugby. Also, the travel will not be as much of an issue. North/South flights are a hell of a lot easier to deal with than East/West. Its the changing time zones that are a killer. Playing in Europe would eliminate that.  

Travel from Europe to SA might be easier but the problem with any kind of north and south competition is the fact that rugby is a winter sport so there's not a very large overlap window.

 The problem has been summarized by Rooinek.  Both comps have matches in December and January - when SH weather conditions will not allow for home games and that would also apply to November and a major part of February.  
Matter of fact that makes participation in NH competition a real problem - since home games would have to be restricted or for all intents and purposes even eliminated completely.    It would also mean that the local franchises taking part would have another problem - they will most likely not be able to play in local competitions like for instance the CC and the new Supersport Challenge competition - since there could be clashes.
As to the European Challenge Cup the matches are rare and spread over a period.  The main matches are in November, December and January with the play-offs later on.  These months are when competitive rugby is not played in SA.   Fact is most clubs play only in the round robin stage when the matches are finalized in months where playing in SA would be serious detrimental as a result of weather conditions.      
There is also the problem that players will have no breaks in playing unless they sacrifice participation in internal SA competition.  
I frankly cannot see how the situation could be developed where the implementation would be practical.  

          

 
Mike ... the Super Rugby teams in South Africa hardly ever make their boys available to the CC anyway, so that shouldn't be an issue.

The Super Rugby Competition starts in the Summer months so I don't see the issue there either. I'm sure something can be worked out.

I'm all for our two discarded sides competing up north.

Besides ... at the moment I would select the Stormers to be discarded. The Kings have shown an impressive fighting spirit and as far as I'm concerned have done enough to qualify. They want to stay.

The Stormers on the other hand are to damn cock-sure of their place in SR. They've leaked more than a 100 pts in the last two games and should be cast aside for the better team ... the Kings.

If the SA Super Rugby teams had to have a playoff to see who survives then the Hapless Stompies and the Blundering Bulls might both be in trouble!

 
Yes, I agree.

Can't remember when last the Bulls were so pathetic. They're an embarrassment ... almost as bad as the Stormers are.

Now that I think about it ... would we want them to go and embarrass us even further up north?

Perhaps we should rather divide their better players up amongs the other 4 franchises and get rid of the rest.

Good idea.

The Lions and the Sharks can stay as they are, the Cheetahs can incorporate the Bulls (we can call them the Ou Boer Republiek or the Vierkleurs or something like that) and the Kings can incorporate the Hapless Stompies and they can be called the Cape Kings.

Feel a bit sorry for the Kings having to take on a bunch of limp-wristed mincers and having to play the occasional game in Cape Town but it will help to develop rugby in the Western Cape.

Sorted!

 
LOL!!!

Well then ... there we have it.

The Western Cape need all the help they can get. It's nothing personal ... it's just showing a little concern for the regression of the sport in that area.

Rugby wins in the end, right?

Traveling ain't a problem when there's no jet lag involved.

I'd like to see as much involvement as possible with the North. Purely for the fact that i dislike outside forces influencing games. The insane jet lag/fatigue, due the massive east/west distances makes so many games forgone conclusions. The Stormers beating the Chiefs, and then getting drubbed in NZ for example. There is no way on earth the Chiefs were anywhere near 100% in that game. So they lost because of something largely out of their control. That's what i don't like.

CC and Rooi...just because guys in Cape Town wear brightly colored scarfs doesn't mean...oh wait, it probably does.

Just kidding Beeno

Members are avoiding the fact that rugby is a winter sport and not played in competitions during the summer months - from early November to late February in SA.   That present serious problems and even though both the competitions mentioned entail home and away games - it would be virtually impossible in the case of playing games during the said period in SA.
As to the issue of the Stormers and Bulls people have short memories.   The Stormers has been dismal in NZ - but has wiped the floor with the Kings. 
What members do not realize is that the  Super Rugby Franchises are moving towards being privately owned and that there would be no buyers iro the Kings and the Cheetahs - the support base is too small and not acceptable to the DSTV crowd.   So the fact is that the issue of who would be dropped based on the performances over the last three weeks is real skyscrapers.
Sorry to differ - but one has t o bear in mind facts and not what is  a rather short term phenomenon.  

Good points and I'm not for or against but would at least like to see the teams have a crack. Our rugby season start a lot earlier with Jan and Feb being all about warm up games. These matches can be played at night time which should take the sun factor out but with the hour or two difference it will make an ideal broadcast time. They may also be more breaks and the game played in quarters. For me personally I think that the challenge cup is better. I would even go as far as keeping 6 franchises but introduce a promotion relegate. It worked for the Lions. Keep in mind that when we had 4 teams we still only had 2 teams. The cats was rubbish for most of the time and so was the bulls and stormers. The lions showed the way and we should copy that blue print. Too many of our big franchises get to comfortable

Not sure the Cheetahs/Kings are enough of a draw to make this financially viable. Face it once they drop out of Super Rugby the few players with international potential will either find their way to our other teams or head north for bigger money. .

KC
I agree with you about some of the teams getting over-comfortable - but I do not think that the private owners being brought in will buy into such an approach - they would want value for their money.
As Mozart pointed out the whole process would need money and that is just not available in the case of the Cheetahs and the Kings.    Supersport has the money - but they are committed to support Super Rugby and it is not sure whether they would venture into such a situation.          

 That might not true that investors don't want to back these unions. I just look at the the Spears / Kings and Lions what they did when they were out in the wilderness. 
They arranged to play to 13 games during the super rugby season and this included them playing teams abroad and travelling and inviting teams to come play against them. I think they played against teams like Fiji and Tonga and made a trip north just to get some game time for their players. I think they even went to Argetina. But they kept the bulk of their team together bar a few of their key players such as Jantjies and Tauta that went to go play for the Stormers and they were both bok contenders. 
By the time it came to the play-off, they were already battle harden and it was a really interesting battle between the kings and lions. Both matches was really close but that type of approach wasn't sustainable and it took a lot of guts and persuasion from the lions to keep their players together and hungry. 
Fastforward 4 years and they are now streets ahead but with the same players that most people wrote off. 
Just keep in mind that the Lions paid out of their own pocket to get game time but also were on the brink of bankruptcy. So they had to make due. 
Imagine the Bulls or the Stormers get a wake up call and the young guns would experience that hurt of being relegated and never want to go through that again. 
Having a regular fixture for these teams make sense. Their is a big gap between June and October and they should be able to compete in the Currie cup getting them ready for the the next season. 
Don't forget that they are also pushing for an international season come 2020

The 13 hour flight travel to South Africa- instead of the usual 1-2 hour flight might be off putting for NW Europe teams. 
Instead of flying the same day as the match- and returning the same day, they would now be travelling for at least 2 days to the match, and then 2 days back.  They could play a maximum of 2 games vs Kings/Cheetas.
The interest from the North could be the tire kicker teams, instead of the best ones. 
Although it would get involved somehow. 
If a tournament could be worked out that is euro- France/England/VS- that would generate lots of revenue. It could afford the teams larger budgets and retain more of the best SA players.  It could take away the advantage of leaving to foreign countries. It would bring the French big budgets into the tournament. 

In view of the large population and the advertisement rights the Lions were never actually bankrupt.   There were serious problems the Lions fielded in the years  leading up to their relegation from Super Rugby.   They were married to a large number of has-beens and never has beens.  
The problem was that some of the players never really made the grade anymore and then they also had coach vs player problems leading to the termination of Mtchell's service.   In the year they were out of Super Rugby they had an ideal opportunity to start building up a team - with Mitchell gone Ackerman carried on with the good work in team-building.   Jantjies went to the Stormers and the other trouble maker Strauss went to Scotland.   Most of the has beens were gone.
Meyer indirectly helped them in the process by his adamant refusal to select Lions players for the Springbok squad - which added as a further motivation of players.   In 2014 the Stormers/WP could not get rid of Jantjies quickly enough and he went back to the Lions having learnt a serious lesson - he never again tried stunts like Strauss and he tried on Mitchell.
I believe in team building and that a good cleaning out of the rubbish is a good way to start and carry on with the process.   I do not think that in the present financial environment there is a place for promotion and relegation matches - so the norm is to be dealt with by the means and evaluations referred to  by SARU.   
By the way when are they going to come up with the decision - they said the matter will be dealt with at a SARU meeting on 23 April 2017 , but since then there was not a word about the issue.      

I think that the as an experiment the teams simply have to give a crack. It will finally settle all debates. The new international season was announced to start in 2019. Meaning that all international matches will be played in a single block. I also suggested the challenge cup as it would be teams from 5 to 9 in each league. L

The new international season is certainly a stimulus.Moving the tests - will mean the time for non-tests games will be more similar. I think SA would keen it would just if Europe was keen.