The halftime try was a turning point in the game

We had just held nicely on our own line against the best AB scrum of the game. Morne cleared brilliantly to the 22. Then Louw did superbly to snaffle the errant AB throw. We were on our 22 , but Morne decided to pass....JJ cut inside Jean who passed to his inside. We had two men outside JJ. In doing so he totally isolated himself and ran into the teeth of the cover defence.

Nonu tackled him and Read went straight over onto the ball...there wasn't a Bok in any position to intervene. The nearest was F du Preez and he was two steps away when Read had h is hands on the ball. JJ totally failing to realize his predicament, placed the ball instantly which Read gratefully snapped up.

After that there was plenty of blame...JJ missed Nonu again in the ensuing move and Kolisi trotted back as if he hadn't a care in the world. The defence up the touchline was pathetic, including a late intercept attempt by Willie.

But to suggest any Bok was there to clean out Read is nonsense. JJ isolated himself failed to maintain his feet or protect the ball....there's your culprit.

Well...at least go as long as you have opponents that gift you tries.

Shame poor JJ was put in an "impossible" situation. Jean forced him to turn inside and Read probably asked him in Afrikaans for the ball. The modern "victim" philosophy shows up in rugby. Nobody is to accountible...everybody is a victim.

I repeat he could have stayed outside, he could have beaten Nonu's tackle (Nonu beat him moments later) he could have held his feet for a second, he could have delayed placing the ball for the standard time, he could have placed it further back or way from Read. ....hell he could have run into touch. Anything but giving Read the ball on a platter.

Mozart

The twister of facts in full flight again.   This issue was discussed under another topic - but Mozart is now starting a new thread to throw off the member from the true situation. 

Mozart under that thread said:-

" Sasu the last thing JJ could do was allow the ABs to turn him. He could have got a kick away, he could have beaten the tackle, he could have stood up in the tackle, he could have delayed placing the ball, he could have placed it further back......lots of options. What he couldn't do was get himself tackled and turned "

The issue was discussed elsewhere and it became clear that both Morne and Jean was in a better position to Engelbrecht insofar as a relieving kick was concerned - now the blame is shifted to Engelbrecht.

Insofar as the "allowing to be turned"  by the con artist is concerned - the following is the real comments on the issue:-

" When Engelbrecht was tackled - he should not have allowed the AB's to turn him around and allow them to recover the ball in the tackle situation.   He should rather have risked a professional foul and a yellow card than did what he did.   Can you imagine the howling if he did the professional foul and he got carded - Mozart would have been screaming with pleasure - if that was the case.   We would never have heard the end of that one."

Nonu beat him 20 seconds later....check it out. As for the run, it was an awful line. Steyn had just thrown a long pass to Jean....there was no Bok player in the centre of the field. That is the space he cut into. Then after Cruden overran the move, he faces a tandem of Read and Nonu. He could have stepped left or right....he could have held up. Nope, he accelerates away from any support right into the space between Read and Nonu and is turned over. Even then he could have protected the ball better. Poor, poor judgement.

But I have to say given your description of this incident Dave, your whole JJ match coverage is open for debate. I think I'll do my own.....it will be a mozcroscope.

Mozart

Just an awkward question - why did Morne or De Villiers not launch a rrelieving kick while they were in their own 22 and the siren was about to go?  Was that not where the craziness started?

Answer....yes it was stupid. It was turnover ball, but we were deep in our half. Having said that JJ compounded the error by isolating himself. I felt watching it the first time the inside cut was the issue. It was, but trying to force the gap between Nonu and Read was insanity. JJ obviously thought he was golden trying that move. What Morne and Jean did was risky, but it took  some really inept play from JJ to do us in.

The facts are simple....that move cost us a try and probably any realistic shot at the championship. His miss of Barrett simply confirmed that point. The same three actors were involved. Jean let hubris cloud his judgement rushing up. I would have preferred Morne to have stopped Barrett vs ushering him to the right. But he did run slap bang into JJ and through him. If JJ makes the tackle both prior mistakes don't matter. But with his hi gh tackling, arm waving style JJ never makes a clean one on one tackle. They are all assisted efforts starting with his tackle on Nonu in the opening minute. 

Mozart

Yes - in both cases Engelbrecht gets the sole blame for both mistakes, while the others are exonerated.   That is not really fair - now is it?   As weak in defence as Engelbrecht was - Morne statistically was in fact worse - not only in the game on Saturday - but throughout all the tests played this year. 

I would be fair and say that the defence was so badly botched up against the AB's that we could not possibly win.   It was not only the backline defence that counted against us - there were also serious lapses amongst our forwards - also our loosies.   I would say if that wa s not the case - the AB's would have scored two - if not three - less tries than what they actually did. 

Nobody is exonerated OOM....all three contributed to the issue, but in the end JJ's was the last act. He could have saved both tries by simply executing. Just as he botched the situation at about minute 34 by dropping the ball. Why did that happen? Dave says it was because the pass was behind him. It was, but it couldn't have been flatter without it being a forward pass.

The fact is JJ's timing was wrong, he was two paces ahead of Kirchner and Willie....he should have been one. It was a set move so we should have executed. JJ got too deep and took the pass on his hip and then dropped it. It negated two brilliant scrums.

This doesn't damn the player, it simply points to the fact that he made many crucial mistakes. He is no Conrad Smith. And he needs to learn how to finish a tackle if he is going to play test rugby, he relies far too much on the second tackler. Right now the optimum strategy for an opponent is to run at JJ, stand in the tackle and offload.

Mozart

You are probably right about most issues on this score - especially that knock on when Engelbrecht was in the gap -but miss out on taking the pass.  However, I still maintain it was not the attacking moves that caused most headaches and the loss - but in reality some really poor decisions at times. but in the main poor defence - with ineffectiveness in line - outs a contributing factor as well.

Those issues need to be addressed by Meyer.  Most of the problems were caused by players with years of experience in playing for the Springboks - and although the defence of Le Roux and Engelbrecht raised some serious question marks - that is not where changes are really necessary or of major importance - it is with the other players who have been around for so long that at this stage of the playing career would be unable to improve their game and would not show further development in the game.  

That is why I think that Meyer should make more changes than what you are championing and should not ignore what the relevant players produce in Super 15 next year.

I basically also feel - that especially in respect of back line players - we should as far as possible shy away from players playing for foreign clubs.   Their game plans are different from those of the SH sides and if they do play they would be really unfamiliar with what to expect from their teammates not playing for NH clubs.

In Meyer's position I would in fact start off by playing more new players in the EOYT games - to see what they can produce on test level and continue with some other changes in the June tests if necessary.   The final teams can then be clearer for the RC next year and also for the ultimate WC squad.  That in effect means we should finish experimentation with new players in the June tests and have the squads sorted out by June.   To continue with the present squad - and especially the under-performers - would be an exercise in futility.

Mozart

You are probably right about most issues on this score - especially that knock on when Engelbrecht was in the gap -but miss out on taking the pass.  However, I still maintain it was not the attacking moves that caused most headaches and the loss - but in reality some really poor decisions at times. but in the main poor defence - with ineffectiveness in line - outs a contributing factor as well.

Those issues need to be addressed by Meyer.  Most of the problems were caused by players with years of experience in playing for the Springboks - and although the defence of Le Roux and Engelbrecht raised some serious question marks - that is not where changes are really necessary or of major importance - it is with the other players who have been around for so long that at this stage of the playing career would be unable to improve their game and would not show further development in the game.  

That is why I think that Meyer should make more changes than what you are championing and should not ignore what the relevant players produce in Super 15 next year.

I basically also feel - that especially in respect of back line players - we should as far as possible shy away from players playing for foreign clubs.   Their game plans are different from those of the SH sides and if they do play they would be really unfamiliar with what to expect from their teammates not playing for NH clubs.

In Meyer's position I would in fact start off by playing more new players in the EOYT games - to see what they can produce on test level and continue with some other changes in the June tests if necessary.   The final teams can then be clearer for the RC next year and also for the ultimate WC squad.  That in effect means we should finish experimentation with new players in the June tests and have the squads sorted out by June.   To continue with the present squad - and especially the under-performers - would be an exercise in futility.

I'd be happy to see Serfontein get more game time, Steph get a shot on the YE tour, Arno to return. Brilliantly as Jean played this S15 there has to be a question of whether his form holds through the RWC. Tighthead remains an issue as well. We need an alternative for Jannie...and the decline in our scrumming when Jannie and Bismarck departed, has to raise questions again as to Coenie as that tighthead alternative.

 Look we know Morne isn't an ideal flyhalf, but we also know what he provides. He has some mental toughness coming back from last year's rejection. Lambie by contrast imploded in the S15. Frankly I was shocked, having picked him as my player most likely to fully emerge in 2013. I was wrong and accept that. Which leaves us with Goosen, who is frankly a mystery.

So the YE tour is a chance to do something...but not too much.

On the JJ front, he is not the worst SA 13 in recent years, but a long way from the best. He was a culprit on Saturday, not the culprit....Kirchner would be my candidate for that. But while he may have had brilliant moments, JJ didn't have a brilliant game. He made far too many mistakes to say that, as Dave has done. The pundits had it right...about a six...and in the lower group of our back ratings. He has to learn how to put his man away on the tackle....it's going to hurt us if he continues getting the nod a 13.

Oh what nonsense, JJ ran a great angle and with that angle was able to beat Cruden (another defender beaten)......the obvious intent of Morne and Jean was to attack, JJ carried that out by running a great angle, beating a defender, getting tackled after making good metres and gets turned over by Read thanks to du Preez and Kolisi not clearing Read out.

JJ showed a bit of class by running that angle, he could have carried on wide and been taken into touch or given it to his wing who would have suffered the same fate.

If your experienced 10 is running it from inside his 22 and he then passes it to his experienced captain at 12, then its a sure bet that they intended to attack from deep.......hellooooooooo.........JJ did a great job of creating space and beating a defender. His team mates let him down by not supporting him.......as I said before, its an absolute joke that JJ has been blamed for the try, much like his blame for the Barrett try.

This has nothing to do with the merits of the player

Mozart

I am sure about one thing and that is if we keep the four under-performers in he team - who have been in the main responsible for our losses in the pas three years and showed very little of consequence, there is no chance of growth in our team - and I man zero.

Why should the Springboks put up with under-par  performers like Kirchner, Kruger, Morne, Steenkamp and Alberts - who has shown their limitations over the past two years and not make changes with a view to the future.

Players like Alberts, Krirchner and Morne will all be 30 next year and Steenkamp 33.   How can they improve their game at this stage of their career and do things which they previously failed in?.

You started of by stating that Alberts is a mighty ball carrier -and a bone-crushing tackler, but there is no evidence of either in his play.   He is a bog ordinary ball carrier and tackler, with a serious mobility problem (eg in the case of the Smith try on Saturday).    He did nothing in the Twickenham try and was strictly speaking in an off-side position and was placed on side only because the  ball touched an English player before going over the goal line.   He fell on it and scored a try  - no carry - no tackles beaten - nothing.  If ever there was a fluke try that was one.   If that is the only thing you can quote in his favour - then you are onto zero real comments.   

Frankly statistically and otherwise Alberts is a weak link in the team and you seem to miss out completely in what he achieves in real terms.   

 JJ is not in the same street as Fourie as a centre! You can make all the excuses you like Saffex about inside shoulders and who should've made the tackle prior, but JJ's wafted attempt to tackle that "big brute" Barrett was atrocious and unforgivable.

Danie Gerber he will never be!!

Nonsense Potato Kirchner never laid a finger on Barrett which is not unusual....just as in the case with Bosch, JJ had full contact with Barrett, had his arms around him and missed him totally. He was also stepped by Nonu at precisely 40.33 (just for you Dave so you can see what eludes you) and was shrugged off by Dagg at 53.30. Even his one succesful tackle of Conrad Smith at 1.02 had Smith struggling forward and JJ clinging on, till Alberts flattened both of them.

As for his running, there is no doubt he accelerates the line well and sold Savea a big dummy. But I counted 8 JJ runs with plenty of space where he never beat the first tackler....and never had the skills to offload.

He really needs to learn how to go low, when making the tackle is crucial. I think JJ has potential, and he accelerates the line which has made our attack more dangerous. It's a mixed bag, but I can't see a better alternative at this point. That said he will leak tries.