The Jantjies hype starts already

Don't get me wrong....he is a nice young player, and seems very steady upstairs. But the fact that he has kicked a few chip kicks, and is a leftie seems to have everybody in a tizz. And with his creative hairstyle and cool cat demeanor he is playing the whole thing pretty well.

But when you read Keo saying that Goosen couldn't match him on Saturday....you wonder about the substance. All Goosen did was kick a 60 metre penalty, a 50 metre drop under pressure, split the Lions defence with a superb break and take a high ball with brilliant acrobatics and then take off down the field. I thought the kid was stunningly talented.

So what did Jantjies really do? He controlled the game? How, I ask, the Cheetahs had most of the game. He kicked splendidly....that I'll grant. Did he make a break....did he unleash his backs.....not that I saw. And the out of hand kicking was patchy, I remember a chip sailing out on the full.

So what is going on here?  I rather suspect we are seeing the beginnings of Watson like hype, with the one crucial difference that this kid could be a deserved Bok one day. But if Morne slips just a little bit , listen for the drumbeat from Keo to put in Jantjies, way before he has proven his case on the field of play.

More than any other country we love the hype.

The Lions backline is not as dangerous as it was under Eloff. Perhaps without Fourie it's lost a bit of much needed grunt. Jantjies is a very talented player but is very much overhyped. He is a poor man's Spencer. People like glitz and glamour more than substance and Saffers are mugs for it more than anyone else in the rugby world. Goosen looks like a very good prospect for a Bok place, certainly not in place of Morne, but there. Jantjies is not physically up to test rugby. I watched very closely how a very direct approach blows him apart. As always the media reigns supreme and it drastically influences and alters people's perceptions because they cannot and are unwilling to think for themselves.

I had a look on ESPN scrum to confirm something. There were only two flyhalves this weekend who really varried their game. They had the best spread of kicking, running and passing of the ball. Morne and Goosen. The others either kicked or passed mostly.

That's where Bok fans can't see the forest for the trees. They think it's a sin to kick. I constantly hear how they expect their 10 to "play the situation", but in the back of their minds they think tht must be passing and running everything. A player who tries to play like Cooper is one-dimensional just as much as a player like dw Waal was for his kicking. This is where I say Morne is top class, he varies his alignment and depth and tries to read the situation. He knows when to do what and has the sense not to pass for the sake of it. If it isn't on he will not distribute to a player in a worse position. His game management is superb, and as you pointed out, Goosen falls into that bracket. Had Australia had any appreciation for these attributes they would have stuck with Barnes. Lets see if their painful experiment with Cooper ends. It's about time our fans had more sense and started appreciating the real value of our players.

I have always rated Barnes way above Cooper.

 Jantjies and Goosen are twice the player Morne is. I'd play Jantjies at 10 for the Boks now with Goosen as my back up. Forget the ponderous Morne who's first instict is to to kick the leather off the ball. At least Jantjies and Goosen mix it up, both have good heads, good boots and above all - creativity and flair.

What on earth do people see in such an ordinary player like Morne? Its the kind of people who select him as our Bok 10 and wonder why we are sitting at 4 in the world rankings.

I challenge you to offer one shred of evidence that Morne ONLY kicks. Thus far he has won many tests all on his own and broken dozens of records for the Boks and internation rugby! All Jantjies did was get utterly savaged against the Barbarians! Jantjies will never and could never be a test 10. Goosen will be a great player one day if he stays at the Cheetahs, but still a way of Morne who is the best 10 out there.

Jantjies kicked just as much as Morne this weekend....just not as well. Use your noggin Dave, this kid isn't fast, he doesn't have much of a step, he has no power.....how in heavens name is he going to be a running flyhalf. His reputation was made with a few chip kicks that came off, but I ask you with tears in my eyes, how does chipping versus up and undering improve the ability to score tries.

I think given his nineteen years of age and given his ability also to attack, his speed temprement etc - Goosen has the most potential.

Morne poses very little or no threat at test level apart from his unerring boot  -something not to be underestimated. Then we have the three youngsters all good players. Elton and Lambie  should be played where possible - in my opinion Goosen is too young to be pitched into test rugby now.

Morne is a good player but the fact was that with him and Fourie Du Preez posing zero threat all the pressure moved out on to Jean and the rest of the backs. Dispite this Jean had an excellent WC.

We need a more rounded flyhalf than Morne but Morne may just hang onto his spot a while longer while the youngsters mature. 

On the contrary Morne has been very good ball in hand for the Boks since day 1! Du Preez as well is not to blame. With plodder Jean having one good game in over five years for the Boks it's no wonder the Boks struggled. Add Dick Mire into the equation along with Peter and you have no basis for blame with Morne. Lambie on the other hand is a proven failure at 10 for the Boks. There is not a single more well rounded 10 out there than Morne. Just give him a half descent 12 and the Boks will be fine.

 Man Moz you do make it up. Jantjies has a great step, great eye for a gap and is certainly quicker than Morne. His kicking was just as good as Morne, difference is is that he actually attacked the gain line and always looks a threat with ball in hand - something Morne can only dream of.

We dont need physicality at 10 and as Jantjies showed on Sat, he is more than up for tackling. If we select Morne at 10 for the Boks we will continue to lose 50% of our tests. Meyer will start off with Morne for security reasons - but it wont be long before the likes of Jantjies and Goosen replace him - the guy is just not a good rugby player. He lives off his ability to kick a ball. 

He would not smell my Bok 22 - an average player at best. We need creative/flair players at 10 and 12 - Morne is anything but

What's creative about Jantjies?

 Ummm, the number of breaks he made all through the CC - take it you missed that?

On Sat he showed creativity with a chip kick and he attacked the gain line with his running - did Morne run once?

Unfortunately we only get selected CC games and to make matters worse they are shown at rediculous hours.

So attacking the gain line is creativity?... well  no, I don't call that creativity,I thought attacking the gain line....was attacking the gain line. Butch James was notorious for his chip kick, I doubt whether anyone believes a sole act like that is creative.

 Attacking the gain line is running with ball in hand with a view to beating the opposition through creativity or brute power. A chip kick ahead is being creative as its aimed at beating the opposition and gaining the ball yourself - unlike the wonderful Morne who just kicks the crap out of it, conceding valuable possession.

Jantjies did plenty of running, just read the articles on him and that match or go for a re run. He did it all through the CC last season - he was a breathe of fresh air, much like Goosen is. Time to move on from the ordinary Morne with a good boot. We can stick with conservative and continue to win 50% of our matches or we can invest in our youngsters who are gifted rugby players - I know who my flyhalves would be

Did any tries come off Jantjies's "creativity"?

The answer s to all this will be revealed this Super 15 for both Lambie and Elton. Thi sseason they are set to start at flyhalf and have a tough campaign to get through

I am hoping Goosen is nursed along this campaign. Sias must take a fair share of the burden.

 Oh boy Denny this is kids stuff - do you really expect every single break or stitch of creativity to lead to a try - get real man. But lets face it, there is more chance of Jantjies or Goosen creating a try than Morne ever will - but I presume you believe otherwise.

No doubt everytime a player like O'Connor is creative, a try ensues?????

Dave do you think Lambie and Elton are ready this year to take over the flyhalf role. I have my doubts but would like them playing some test rugby.  I just sense its still a bit too early.

I am concerned about Goosen at 19 playing too much Super 15. Physically he is not ready yet. Is a brilliant prospect being rushed.

As I've said already, rugby is not a game for creative people. It's a thinking man's game. It requires good puzzle-solving ability and logical thinking as rugby is a very pattern based game. The best players always fall into this bracket. The so called creative players are simply players that try too hard to impress with pyrotechnics; their success is always limited and they are rarely useful on the big stage. Of all the 10s we have, only Morne can read the game and vary ANY aspect of his play. Jantjies will brainlessly run it or pass it with scant appreciation for the tactical battle. Lambie is even worse as he cannot offer anything on attack at all! Goosen is quickly becoming another Morne which bodes very well for the Boks. Everything else is just a cheap knock-off.

Jeez Dave, we had exactly this debate last year when you were hyperventilating about Quade Cooper. A great runnner, so much better than Morne etc etc.  And look what happened.

Now I was never under any illusions that Cooper could succeed in the really tough tests that settle best in breed. But even I would have to say the Qualude is ten times as dangerous, ball in hand, as Jantjies.

Jantjies is more like a Johnny Wilkinson. A small chappie who defends well, has good vision for the tactical kicks and seemingly the nerve to goal kick under pressure. That makes him a Bok candidate in my view. But NOT the 10 we have always wanted who could be the fulcrum of the attack. He is more like Morne, than not like Morne.

Goosen could be the guy who becomes an attacking force in his own right. But it's way too early to say.

 Cooper is an awesome player. I'd have him at 10 in my side with hands tied behind his back ahead of the very average Morne. 

As for Jantjies being like Wilko, that is complete nonsense - Jantjies is a running flyhalf, something Jonny and Morne are not.

Goosen and Jantjies are similar players. Goosen is a star in the making

You do realize that you are not supposed to try and run all your attacks through your 10 Dave? Your 10 is more of a link with your 12 doing more of the attacking. Cooper the Blooper fails because he tries to do too much on his own being the big hero. He is a vastly inferior 10 to Morne, Bosman, Goosen, Potgieter, Carter, Flood, Barnes, Hernandez and a host of others. He is useless and utterly exposed over the last two years with a humiliating World Cup campaign!

Dave the Quaalude singlehandedly took Oz out of the RWC. Surely that's a big enough flop to get your atttention. How you can still rate that exposed nerve end beats me.

But it's nice we can both be enthusiastic about Goosen

 Yeah right Moz, Cooper was to blame for Oz's exit - get real. Cooper is a brilliant player who is going to create many years of havoc for opposing sides.

der Aris - go tell that to the best two 10's in the game - Carter and Cooper. The attack starts at 10 or 12.......what is certain is that if you want a world beating side, you need creative/flair players at 10 and 12.....hence the fact NZ and Oz are number 1 and 2 in the rankings......unlike the Boks sitting at 4 because we have a ponderous plodder at 10 who kicks the shit out of the ball all the time. Morne is a crap player and the longer he is our pivot, the longer we languish at 4 in the rankings.

Oh I see we are dealing with lock brain again.

Statistically speaking, Carter has kicked, to date since 2009, more than Morne! Even Cooper kicked more than Morne in 2010! For the Boks, Morne has been passing far more than kicking. That's been the problem. But our centres have not been firing, and that's where your attacking play is generated. Here are some facts about ou Blooper:

Cooper: Australia v South Africa (RWC)
K/P/R: 13-9-7
Metres Run: 28
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Offloads: 0
Turnovers Conceded: 4

This guy was buggered from start to finish. I could go on if you so wish...


 

 Oh boy, difference is that while Cooper and Carter do kick it as any 10 does, they are able to mix it up and run the ball, creating space for those outside them ........please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that Morne does the same, for if you do, you are one stupid individual.

 No Moz, no brain freeze, I am just not naive enough to think that in a team game like rugby, that one man can be held responsible for a loss......you have thrown that at Flip at times......hell if I did the same I'd say Schalk cost the game against the Sharks when Lambie handed him off and scored.......but I know better.

Next you will be telling me you would select Morne ahead of Cooper at 10.......bwhaaaahaaa

"No Moz, no brain freeze, I am just not naive enough to think that in a team game like rugby, that one man can be held responsible for a loss......"

LMAO!!!!

Saffex
Member
Posts: 92 RE: The Jantjies hype starts already
February 29, 2012, 00:56:31

 Oh boy, difference is that while Cooper and Carter do kick it as any 10 does, they are able to mix it up and run the ball, creating space for those outside them ........please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that Morne does the same, for if you do, you are one stupid individual.

RWC Stats for Morne Steyn (kick/pass/run);

Wales: 14/18/5

Fiji: 10/28/7

Nam: 10/13/6

Samoa: 12/13/2

Aus: 13/36/1

2012 S15, first round: 13/14/4

 You miss the point, he has no flair or creativity, so when he runs, nothing comes of it.

Saffex
Member
Posts: 93 RE: The Jantjies hype starts already
February 29, 2012, 11:23:39

 You miss the point, he has no flair or creativity, so when he runs, nothing comes of it.

The Bulls had two try scorers in the top 10 try scorers list (technically there are 19 players in the top 10 list), both of them outside of Morne Steyn. The only other SA team who had two players on thar list is the Sharks. On the list, the Bulls had 15 tries, the Sharks 12, the Cheetahs 9, Lions 6 and the Stormers 6 tries in total. Bear in mind that both the Stormers and the Sharks had one game more than the Bulls.

Dont leave the scrummie out of the equation. Half backs need to pose a threat to the opposition  -witness Genia. Neither Morne or Fourie did. Fact is morne is a good flyhalf but not the complete package, He now has some very good youngsters yapping at his heels which is a healthy thing for Bok rugby. How long can he hold them at bay.

Another problem is Hougaard. Good enough to play scrummie for the Boks but is that where we get the best value. One suspects that Hougaard and Morne as the bulle half back pairing will also be the Bok half back combo. Hougaard is dangerous and brings some necessaary threat on attack. Their combo could develop nicely.

It's a great pity Lambie is not being left at 15. He has wonderful ability to join the line at pace, and make the crucial break. It's a timing thing.....Mortlock and Joe Cool had that vision as well. But it's not a skill that works at 10, where you need a step or power to provide the break. Lambie will do fine at 10 because he is a great player....but he's more likely to get hurt and his true genius, the cut, is nullified.

We are fine at 10 with Morne the incumbent and two developing options......Jantjies who will in the final analysis be a kicking flyhalf and Goosen who is the superior athlete we have been looking for.....a Fransie with nous.

The nous is important as we saw with Fransie.....no player I have ever seen has better physical assets to play test 10.

Frans is a big target at 10 and a bit slow getting his kick away. 

Seeing we have enough flyhalves where is Frans best needed. To me its to take over from Jean. Taute can play 15 or Lambie as you say. we are a bit short on top quality centers. Frans dominates in that spot.

We have to start moving the younger players into postions they will be needed in.

Frans never ever looked like being a flyhalf. Just like Lambie, it never worked. He also never really fired at fullback, never our best there. It's very obvious where both of these players are but out of stubborn idiocy they will never be. Lambie has only looked remotely good at 15. He hasn't been good enough at flyhalf to convincingly oust a Michalak nearly six years past his sell-by-date. It's such a shame that ANOTHER great World Cup performance is not even enough to open these idiot's eyes.