MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 01:39#1
Watching de Jongh slide past JJ yesterday, one was again reminded that the defensive debate was never quite put to bed. Here are the numbers:
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C Engelbrecht 0/0 0 0/3/6 15 0 1 1 0 5/4 0/0 2 0/0
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We see he missed 4 tackles and made 5, conceded two penalties ....and his running wasn't so hot either, de Jongh had no problems. While he is very exciting in space, perhaps declaring victory based on performances against Scotland, Samoa and Italy was a little premature. Can he deal with big, tight games, for me the jury is still out.
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One thing was obvious yesterday....Jean is still our best centre. No matter what SA centres he plays against, including Fury, he always emerges as top dog.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 02:11#2
Mozart
Why do you always quot stats when it fits your argument and ignore them completely otherwise? Yes - Engelbrecht did not have a good game yesterday - both in attack and defence. But he was playin outrside a rookie and Morne Steyn - whose game yesterday was atrocious.
O - and De Jongh had no problems - get us his stats too - please. They also made awkward reading and that on a side that was outperforming the opposition. De Jongh had his normal day at the office - a miss tackle ratio of 28%. At least Engelbrecht as a rule does not miss tackles on a high level like he did yesterday - but overall in this series his missed tackle ratio is half of that of De Jongh.
What did the sliding past De Jongh achieved anyway - bugger nothing to say the least. He has about as much effectiveness as a jellyfish would have in backline play. Let me dearly remind you again of the vanishing trick played by De Jongh in the Murrayfield and Twickenham tests last year - so stop harping about that one - he definitely is NOT test level and should not even be on Super 15 level.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 02:51#4
The difference is Sheez-ou, I never took you seriously. As for your comments OOm they are shot through with distortions. De Jongh missed two tackles in nine, calculate your number again. The point here is JJ is being written up as if he has just played the RC. On Saturday he was handily outplayed by de Jongh and not even in Jean's league.
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So the answer comes back Venter was the problem. I say nonsense, JJ missed all those tackles on his lonesome....Venter had better stats, he only missed 2 tackles in 13:
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C Venter 0/0 0 0/5/8 16 0 2 1 0 11/2 0/0 0 0/0
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The truth is JJ started playing better when Serfontein took over 12 at the Bulls. It's not so much that Venter let him down, it's more the case that Serfontein seemed to really help him. Without Serfontein the playoffs may be a challenge for the Bok 13.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 08:36#5
For those like Sheez-ou who don't think there is a problem, check out the de Villiers break where he gets ankle tapped. The Bools line comes up with a huge step caused by JJ being fully 5 metres behind Venter. Jean cleverly drifts outside Venter, but would normally be confronted by JJ going out that wide. But JJ has left a gap which Jean exploits by accelerating off his left foot. JJ's attempted tackle fails. Except for that desperate Potgieter tap a try was on the cards. Engelbrecht still can't maintain a straight defensive line.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 09:45#7
Mozart
I apologize profusely - the miss tackle ratio of De Jongh was only 23% on Saturday - but his average for the Series as a whole was still a whopping 28% so that should make my statement still appropriate - he is a serious liability in defence.
You are a one match idiot all the same - one match and the player is doomed for life. Better still - one incident in a match and the same happened according to you if you personally dislike a player - whilst your favourite mostly useless players can foul up game after game and you will never admit it.
I have my own reservations about Engelbrecht's defence - but I do not run away and compare his defence with the rubbish dished out by De Jongh - who was known throughout the series as part of the defensive sieve of the Stormers out wide. By trying to write up the useless De Jongh in the way you did makes a mockery of your comments as being of nay objective value.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 10:14#9
Beeno
The Stormers were throughout the series in serious trouble with regard to defence by their backline players. In the process Aplon missed on average 40% of all attempted tackles - De Jongh 28% - Pietersen 25%. Those are facts and the combined effort can indeed be described as a sieve. Add to that the figures of Jantjies 25% and it is cear that the average ratio is nearly 30%.
I do think that if you have a backline with those kind of stats - you are looking for trouble. You can afford one player with that kind of record - but 4 is looking for trouble. I have no problem with Aplon on his own - he makes up on his deficiencies in defence by his good attacking play - but the others do not - and that being n of the main reasons why I think the removal of D Jongh and Janties was essential. Moving Aplon to full bak and playing Van Aswegen at 10 was a move in the right direction - but It still would have been better to drop De Jongh too and play De Villiers at 13 and De Allende at 12.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 11:31#11
Cleancut
There is one issue where Mozart is always on about - and that is his constant campaign to have De Jongh as Springbok center. It really is a joke - and I have never really taken it as serious. Mozart basically does not want to be reminded of De Jongh's latest test performance - so I will post it again:-
de Jongh 0/0 0 0/1/0 0 0 0 0 0 3/0 0
I have never seen such stats from a starting line up player - all the zeroes are really amazing. Was De Jongh ever in the team - or why did he vanish from sight?
However, what can one expect from Mozart. After the EOYT Mozart admitted that De Jongh is not test materal and came out with the classic that De Jongh is good enough to be on the bench for the Springboks - thus implying that a bench player need not be an international level player. Can you now see the clanger he came up with?.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 14:04#16
Ihi
Mozart has been around for years on other sites and this one. I once spoke to him on the phone for a long time and he is an absolute gentleman. Actually likes the guy and loves to needle him. He is very conservative in his outlook on rugby and that is not appreciated by many on this site.
Despite all the differences in opinion between Mozart and me - I still have a very high regard for his opinions - even though it may not come through in my postings. However, like all humans he is wrong in some cases - but so am I.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 Jul 2013, 15:35#18
Sorry Moz those stats are wrong, JJ never missed a single one on one tackle. There is no way de Jongh got passed him and the only time Jean got away was with no-one to beat and him running a good line.
I disagree with those stats 100%. I have the game recorded and JJ's defence was good. Venter at 12 missed too many but he has not played much S15 rugby and is a better player than that.
The only misses JJ had was when he tried to cover an inside break, where he ended up having to dive and try stop someone.
Please point out the 4 missed tackles by JJ and I'll happily counter them.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 17:14#19
De Jongh beat JJ down the left hand touchline once....and the times JJ tackled him.....eg just before the Habana try, he drove him back about 5 metres. It's a fact. But it's not tackling per se that's the concern....it's the inability to maintain a defensive line under pressure. The four missed tackles came from ESPN stats, which I have found quite reliable.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 17:34#20
Mozart
ESPN Stats - sure I also refer to them - but not selectively like you do to strengthen your arguments. Use them all the time please - and that will help all of us. The 28% missed tackle ratio of De Jongh comes from those states - so why not recognise that one as well?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 18:03#21
OOm Maaik, de Jongh has missed a few tackles this year, as has Aplon. But put them one on one in open field.....simply having to make the tackle....I have far more confidence in de Jongh and Aplon than I have in Kirchner and JJ. Simply because their tackling technique is way better.
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De Jongh for one makes a lot of forcing tackles.....running up on a player and trying to make the tackle deep, behind the advantage line. You are far more likely to miss those versus simply trying to stay in the defensive wall.
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I would pick Serfontein and Jean for the Boks right now, probably Engelbrecht on the bench. But de Jongh would not let the side down. While you are checking out his stats, check out his test tackling stats.....you will find they are excellent. Probabaly because he is a little less aggressive coming forward in a test setting.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 18:12#22
Mozart
28% missed tackles are not a few tackles - it is more than a few. I did check his test tackle stats and they were nearly aero - as was the case in the Twickenham test where he played a vanishing trick. Unlike you I have no confidence in De Jongh - he is basically a liability for any team.
He is totally ineffective in attacking play and the forced tackles you are trying to credit him with are myths.
I agree about the issue of Jean d Villiers - but never on the issue of a passenger that is likely to do what he did the tests last year - vanish into thin air.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 18:15#23
You talk about selective stats and infer what his test tackling stats would be like, based on the S15. But he has played in tests. Go back and calculate his test average for all his tests. I'm curious, let's see how they stack up.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 Jul 2013, 18:15#24
Have to disagree on this, I saw no issues with JJ's defence but will go check again.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 21:30#26
For the record OOm Maaik. De Jongh has made 44 runs in test rugby for an average of 4.47 metres a run. He has attempted 57 tackles and made 53 of them for an average of 93% Some sieve hey? And just so we don't think he played patsies....the Bok record in his 14 tests was 9 games won out of 14.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jul 2013, 21:52#28
Mozart
When was those stats from? He scored two magnificent tries against Namibia as well. But that was in 2010. I am frankly not interested in what happened three years ago. If he was that good in 2010 - why was he so bad in 2013? Mozart - you must be kidding us trying to get statistics about years ago and then try and dish it up as convincing arguments to be considered at present. Why did he deteriorate so badly then that he is now down to a 28% missed tackle ratio.
Just one more thing - statistically De Jongh was the worst starting line up center in Super 15 this year - so whatever he did in years gone by - counts for nothing.
By the way - his record last year is of more importance and that read like a nightmare. And that wonderful run along the left side of the field on Saturday was after a forward pass and the whistle has gone - so nobody even attempted a tackle.
Aside from having made no impact insofar as try-scoring is concerned in 2011 to date - he scored a total of 6 tries over that period - 5 on Super 15 level and one on CC -level - he never ever created anything to allow for a try being scored by any other player.
He is way to small in built and to weak to produce anything of substance - so why are you always campaigning to have that little nincoumpoop in the Springbok team? As previously stated I do not support his inclusion in the Super 15 team - because his contribution is zero to the team as a whole.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2013, 22:54#29
So weak he made 5 metres after the tackle every time on Saturday? Your's is a vendetta old chap. But bluster as you might he has missed a grand total of 4 tackles in 14 test matches....including 3 starts against NZ and Oz. Those are fabulous numbers and no amount of your BS can change that.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Jul 2013, 08:07#31
No use discussing anything with Mozart about De Jongh. All the latest fiascos of De Jongh are to be forgotten, 5 meters fictitious advances after tackles are invented and we have case where he argues about a player who failed badly in tests and Super 15 over the past two years - but then Mozart always believe in going back years to try and find something good about dud players he supports.
