MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Aug 2013, 17:35#1
I know this observation will cause some heartburn, but it has to be made.....the Bargies scored one try yesterday.....courtesy of JJ. If you look at the video JJ has his foot touching the halfway....he could have made a crisp tackle inside the Bargie half and that would have been that. But his first instinct is to plant and then step back. He contacts the Bargie a metre into his half......seven metres later he is still flapping at the Bargie who comfortably offloads. The defensive line is breached and a try ensues.
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Sadly for such an interesting attacking centre, JJ has no confidence on defence. He is not aggressive in his intent.....just looking to avoid the mistake. In short he is not a natural defender at centre. So far it has cost us one RC try, there will be more.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Aug 2013, 18:13#3
I'm not sure it's a better question Shezza, but certainly another valid one. Basson is probably a worse defender than Nokwe!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Aug 2013, 18:28#4
Mozart
Still on the anti-Engelbrecht drive - would no defence De Jongh have done batter? By the way - I believe the backline should be changed and Serfontein brought in as 12 - moving De Villiers to 13 and Engelbrecht at 14. That would rid us of the useless Basson. But Saffex throws a tantrum anyone ever suggesting that as a solution to the problem.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Aug 2013, 18:30#5
So you think that was a credible tackle attempt?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Aug 2013, 18:39#6
Mozart
To be quite frank - it was not - but I do not think at that stage of the game (already won by a wide margin) anyone was really bothered to go all out in defence and that was shown by a variety of players - not only Engelbrecht.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Aug 2013, 20:04#7
The mistake came because he was nervous about stuffing up, not because he didn't care. A good low tackle moving forward would have ended the move....but that's not natural to him.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Aug 2013, 20:31#9
I'm in two minds about this. He is a more natural wing, but is he better than JP or Habana? Eventually he would be given age, but by then some new talent could have emerged. Thirteen is a clearer fit right now, but for the defence.
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Unfortunately it's a big 'but'. He reminds me of Spies on the tackle, a powerful, fast guy who is just not comfortable with the physical process of making the tackle. Spies never changed, so perhaps it's foolish to expect JJ to change....but I'm still hoping. Having genuine pace at 13 is exciting.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Aug 2013, 20:48#10
Mozart
On cloud 9 again - Pietersen is unavailable till the next two Japanese Club games for two years. He will not be available for test rugby in SA - so why carry on about it? The problem is immediate and your assumption of his defence capacity is conjecture on your part - no real evidence.
And the non-urgency in defence in the case of the last Argentine try was not only with Engelbrecht - it was evident in all other players in the vicinity of the ball. It is a logical explanation for the conduct of Engelbrecht in this case - why go on a tantrum about one incident during the whole game?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 00:13#11
Oom, Cloud 9 is thinking the Boks are in danger of losing against a team they beat by 60 points.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 00:54#12
Mozart
Cloud 9 means that you take on incident in one game and build up a career profile based on that incident - without considering circumstances that might influence the incident. Blaming only Engeklbrecht for that try is unrealistic and creating a bad image of the player concerned. Not that it would be the first time though - you were telling a myth about the game concerning how phenominal De Jomgh was in dragging Engelbrecht five meters every time he tried to tackle him - which was factually proved to be inaccurate.
Se only you are brining in a player that cannot play for SA over the next two years and make an unrealistic comparison with the unimplementable. What does that help in the circumstances the team found them now?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 03:08#14
Pops a back pass to the man outside 9 metres later! I never said he missed the tackle, I said he gave the Bargie 9 metres and an easy offload. And hence a Bargie try. You may not be worried about it Dave, but it's absolutely typical of JJ's weak defence. And it's not one tackle, it's an ongoing sequence....eg in the Stormers match when de Jongh waltzed past him.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 07:58#15
Mozart
Back to the De Jongh saga - I thought it would come up - hence my reference to it earlier. This time it was not De Jongh dragging Engelbrecht along for five meters it became nine meters and the allegation of poor talking when the tackle was made. This is ridiculous and clear as daylight - you have gone overboard to find a reason to denigrate Engelbrecht.
However, you were quickly on the defence when it was proven that De Jongh missed 28% of attempted tackles in Super 15 this year - and it was because De Jongh is such a "powerful' tackler that he does miss tackles. Same with the AWOL that De Jongh managed to do in the London test last year.
Nobody bought the mentioned favrications about De Jongh - and I do not expect anybody would buy the latest one on Engelbrecht. Maybe some objectivity is needed - but that is rarely in evidence in your postings on this site.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Aug 2013, 12:34#16
Sorry Moz, have to disagree, there is no issue with JJ’s defence, no worse or better than Jean or Serfontein’s. If it had been an easy one on one tackle JJ would have executed the tackle, but the Boks were exposed out wide, JJ was not fully committed as he was looking to cover the outside.
It often happens in broken play that when a defender has two or three players to cover, he will not fully commit to the man with ball in hand as one used to do in the old days. The offload creates doubt in the defender. In these situations, the art of defending when you are exposed is to create the impression that you have everyone covered.
This is exactly what happened, JJ looked to cover, but did not fully commit, once he realised the wing was going to retain the ball he took him out . Numbers create doubt in any defender, not just JJ.
De Jongh stepped JJ fairly, that was totally different but de Jongh did not do a good job of it as in the process he lost momentum and JJ had him. I have not seen an issue with JJ’s defence all season, he has been as good as any of our centres. The day JJ starts missing routine tackles in structured backline play, is the day we need to start worrying. JJ is a good defender, he has put in some big hits this year and nothing like Spies who used to just fall off tackles as his technique was so poor.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Aug 2013, 15:01#18
and nor is JJ you stupid Spoon
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Aug 2013, 15:41#20
Spoon my guess is that a prick like you made those stats up or better still the twit that compiled those stats has no clue what he is doing, there is no way in hell JJ missed 34 tackles att S15, that is about 3 a game - what bullshit
Much like Ebersohn having 40, Sadie 30, Hooper 30, de Jager 29 and Lealiifano 28........what a load of rubbish.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 16:07#21
None of the above is anywhere near the miss tackle ratio of De Jongh who missed 28% of all attempted tackles - that is an important and potent comparison. How many tackles did Ebersohn made and what was the total number of attempted tackles. Forwards made a massive amount of tackles as well - especially around the fringes.
You quoted Ebersohn as an example - he attempted to make 208 tackles and missed 40 - that means a ratio of circa 18% misses. 15% misses are more or less average - meaning 1 tackle miss in every 6 apptempts - not really outrages. I did some other spot checks on players you have singled out and they are all in the range of 15 to 18%.
By the way I just woinder why De Jongh's name is missing from the above list - he was a serial offender missing as many as 4 tackles in some games. However on checking I found his attempted tackles comparative to other 13's was extremely low - hence the 28% did not show up as a number in excess of 26.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 16:50#22
www.rugbystats.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html
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JJ was third on tackles missed in the S15? That's remarkable for an outside centre. But if he made a lot of tackles that would be an offset. Sadly though, he is not in the top 20 on tackles made.....pointing to his problem. He can't tackle....so far it's cost us one try.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 17:23#23
Mozart
Don't come with rubbish - the issue of tackles attempted, made and missed are pertinent. Not only the actual number of tackles missed. There is no backline players in that top twenty tackles made list - it started with Labuschagne - whom you hate and despise - and it ends with a very high number of tackles made virtually all by forwards. In the backline both the attempted and made tackles are much lower. When comparing that ratio - the top on that list is De Jongh - with a 28% missed tackle ratio - whilst players like Engelbrecht and Ebersohn are all in the range of 15 - 18%. The player with the lowest missed tackle ration at 13 is Jordaan with a 6% missed tackle ratio - another player you are trying to damn on a one-incident basis.
One needs to read statistics on an objective basis - not by just punting around figures without context. The wild atstement made is that Engelbrecht cannot tackle - and the question is what is the ratio between tackles attempted and tackles made - that is a much more reasonable way to look at it. Based on statistics the worst tackler at 13 inb SA is De Jongh. If Engelbrecht cannot tackle - what about De Jongh - with a much lower rate of attempted tackles and a very high ratio of missed tackles. First of all - why the low number of attempted tackles - is it because he went AWOL in games - secondly why the high ratio of missed tackles?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 17:32#24
So Ebersohn is not a backline player? Honestly OOM you need to give it a rest.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 17:39#25
Himmel, the old bugger cannot read anymore - I was talking about the top 20 tackles made in Super 15 - where is Ebersohn on that list? Matter of fact where is any backline player on that list?
Maybe the reason is - he cannot argue the point and is now trying to sidestep the issue - coupled to his extremely silly observations
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 18:19#26
Most Tackles Made
1. Pieter Labuschagne (Cheetahs) 268
2. Matt Todd (Crusaders) 253
3. Wimpie van der Walt (Kings) 247
4. Heinrich Brussow (Cheetahs) 218
5. Ed Quirk (Reds) 214
5. Phillip van der Walt (Cheetahs) 214
7. Robert Ebersohn (Cheetahs)
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Game,set and match.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Aug 2013, 19:07#27
Moz is simply nonsense that JJ cost us that try, it was not even close to being an issue with JJ
Its also complete nonsense that JJ missed that many tackles in the S15, had he been that bad, he would not have smelt Bok selection much like Lealiifano would not have smelt the Oz 12 spot had his defence been that poor. Likewise Ebersohn would not have made the Bok squad had his defence been that poor.
Those stats are just rubbish
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Aug 2013, 21:04#28
The stats are accurate insofar as they go. There is always a bit of a debate about what constitutes a missed tackle. Still over a whole season things even out. Ebersohn attempted lots of tackles, which got him on the list. But all the other serial tackle missers like Rhule, Sadi and th Quaalude are there, attesting to the credibility of the numbers.
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And frankly Dave I can't follow your logic on the Bargie try....Engelbrecht drifted along with the Bargie for 9 metres, stroking his back and then allowed the offload. If you go high, at least you are supposed to prevent the offload. From there it was a few passes and a Bargie try.
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But let me word it differently.....JJ failed to bring down the ball carrier, and allowed the offload, but if our cover defence was better, perhaps the potential try might have been averted. Does that suit?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Aug 2013, 22:30#29
Saffex
Mozart miss the point - deliberately so - because the issue is the total attempted tackles - the tackles mmade and the ratio of missed tackles out of total tackles attempted that indicates the defending capacity of the player.
In the case of Ebersohn it is about 16% tackle miss ratio - a miss ratio of 15% is totally acceptable. However, my Mozart is not responding is because of the miss tackle ratio of De Jongh at 28% - which obviously is nearly double of what is acceptable.
We do not have the figures for Engelbrecht - but when I calculated it once before it was in the vicinity of 14% - so I do not know what Mozart and Spooony is on about. Mozart obviously wants to use one-sided figures to try and discredit Engelbrecht - and I tried to point it out to him. - but you know him he is totally averse to any discussion that does not fit his argument.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Aug 2013, 04:00#31
Soooo OOm you say JJ's defensive stats are 14% missed. You say you calculated it. Well therein lies our problem, numbers are a challenge. I reproduce all the tackles made/tackles missed data for JJ, please note he missed a few games, presumably because he had a niggle. Well here they are:
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(0/0).....(9/2).....(12/2)....(5/2)....(13/0)......(8/1)......(6/4).......(11/1)......(11/3).....(5/1)......(4/1).....(12/3).....(5/4)....(4/1)
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That totals up to 130 tackles attempted and 105 tackles made. A success rate of 81%. Certainly not your 14% miss ratio and certainly well above your 15% acceptable miss figure. It's also interesting to note the 25 missed tackles is considerably below the 34 missed tackles recorded on the other site....which presumably has tighter standards. Most of JJ's tackles tend to be desperate affairs with help from other players. Clearly the 19% miss ratio is charitable.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2013, 04:43#32
Mozart
Nicxe try. I did the calculations in early May based on the stats provided by ESPN - so that may have been too low. I accept the 19% given by you based on the above - no contest.
However, since you went that far - what about the stats on your favourite player at 13 De Jongh whom you always shout and scream about. Please provide those at the same time and lets compare notes as well. And while you are at it also provide the stats on Jordaan.
I dislike generalizations very much. A person must see what impact issues have on games - as a whole. I have also often had misgivings on defence of Enegelbrecht - but looking at his value at 13 must be a balance between attack and defence. A player like Conrad Smith for years was not the soundest defender around - but excellent on attack - which was his strong point - defence a weaker point in his armoury. It still makes Smith a top 13 - why is it different in the case of Engelbrecht?.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2013, 05:23#34
Mozart
Easy to say crap - check his stats on the issue in respect of his performance in Super 15 this year and in tests over the tests since June last year. You are known to make sweeping statements - but obviously does not know that the issue raised its head numerous times in the past. Another sweeping statement made by a person who is known for talking crap - a certain Mozart.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Aug 2013, 05:54#35
Well OOm, I went one better, I checked Smith's international record since the start of RWC11.....20 matches. I found in 13 of those matches he missed no tackles at all, including his 10 tackles attempted and made performance last Saturday. In all he attempted 142 tackles and made 128 of them.....for a success rate of 90% in tests.
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What gave you this crazy notion that Smith is weak defensively? Or did it just seem like a good idea to throw out there? You are hardly worth reading with all the disinformation....you should be ashamed of yourself....two lies in one string.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2013, 06:30#36
Mozart
Lots or research done and not always very convincing - rather check the stats for this year in Super 15 - Smith is getting on in years as well - so that may be the fact that his miss ratio in games this year is between 15 and 18% - with to boot in some games a very low tackle rate - eg in the whole Hurricanes - Stormers game he made only 2 tackles. Stats are not always accurate - and only really reflected where players actually endeavour to make tackles - not where they are not even attempting a tackle. So I am still convinced that you are talking crap - but that is normal.
How many lies have you conjured up in the past two days? Especially when it comes to players like De Jongh, and Du Toit? Just think - when you live in glass houses do not throw stones. You invent things wonderfully well and then dish it up as facts on this board.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Aug 2013, 06:37#37
Just can't admit you were wrong can you? The guy's reputation is built on rock solid low tackling. He has a 90% test tackle ratio.....with high tackle counts. You asked me to investigate his test record, I did, and now you can't accept it. But I challenge you to prove those aren't the facts big mouth. Go ahead justify your comments.
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It takes some kind of fool to think Jordaan is a good tackler and Conrad Smith is a poor tackler.... congratulations you just qualified chump.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Aug 2013, 12:17#39
Spoon I don't need a twat like you telling me about the art of rugby and I also do not need stats to tell me that JJ is a good defender or otherwise. I rely on my eyes not some idiot's interpretation of a missed tackle.
There is no way in hell JJ missed 34 tackles all season. I am a huge fan of the lad and pay particular attention to his displays.
JJ uses the rush as do Jean and Habana........so what's your point. Your ignorance tells us that the rush is employed to execute an intercept when in fact it is used in an attempt to snuff out an attack when the defensive line is disrupted.........but hey you know better.
May I suggest you go back to school and learn the art of debate
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2013, 13:01#40
Spooony
I have a difference with you about the tackle issue. In my book the issue relates to the total number of attempted tackles - comparative to the number of effective tackles and missed tackles and what the ratio is in that case. Where a person try an intercept he is not to be counted as a missed tackle - since he does not even attempt a tackle - he just misses out on everything and missed tackles cannot be assumed on such grounds.
Another fact is that a player who attempted a huge number of tackles has a better chance of missing out than a player who does not do the same and whose tackle count is lower. Your argument about De Jongh is flawed - since judged on the ESPN stats for all games he played in - he actually makes a very limited number of tackles compared to other players in 13 and he missed a hell of a lot more comparatively than others.
Sometime during the series - I did a check on the issue of Engelbrecht's defence and according to ESPN he made 62 tackles missing 11. That was in May - so I cannot account for the difference in the total missed tackles as accounted for above. That figure was not an outrageous miss tackle ratio - so I am bothered by how the miss tackle thing is worked out - because ESPN stats are fairly reliable.
Like all other players he misses tackles - but the question remains - what is acceptable and what is not. Him going out of line to make intercepts can be really bad judgement - and if it leads to opposition tries - he must stop that nonsense - but I can remember only about two such events this season. .
