The Kiwi model

Meyer needs to take a look and learn:

Incumbent side: 15. Dagg (25) 14. B.Smith (27) 13. C.Smith (32) 12. Nonu (31) 11. Savea (23) 10. Carter (31) 9. A.Smith (24) 1. Woodcock (32) 2. Hore (35) 3. Franks (25) 4. Retallick (22) 5. Whitelock (25) 6. Thompson (30) 7. McCaw (32) 8. Read (28)........a blend of experience and youth.....the incumbents should always be your best 15 regardless of age

And with the back-ups its about the younger players:

Backs: Piutau (22), Barrett (22), Crotty (25), Cruden (24), Kerr-Barlow (23), Saili (22), Perenara (20), Slade (26), Taylor (24)

Forwards: Crockett (30), Faumuina (26), Coles (26), Cane (21), Vito (26), Luatua (22), Mealamu (34), Romano (27), Bird (22), Todd (25), Messam (29)

So of the back-ups, we only have Crockett, Mealamu and Messam as being old

We cant say the bloody same for Meyer's Boks, starting with the incumbents.......where we dont have the best selected and our back-ups are littered with old farts

 Thompson the incumbent 6?? Might wana check that.

You say "a blend of experience and youth.....the incumbents should always be your best 15 regardless of age!"

Was it not you that said Jean De Villiers is "past it" and is a hasbeen? He is our best centre by some distance but you say he is too old. You talk about experience blending in with youth then you want Serfontein and JJ to play together against Nonu and Smith?? What you wana do there Dave? You wana buy our guys some experience because they not gona magically get it overnight.

So right there you counter your own statements. Jean (Nonu) and Jaque (Smith) should play together and Serfontein (Saili) and JJ (Crotty) should watch on. Now you gona tell me they old and past it?

You would love to see a backline consisting of Hougaard, Goosen, Serfontein, JJ, Volmink, Rhule and god knows who you want at the back now. Where is the experience you seem to be favouring now?

Boklogic

Saffex has a point here.   I have no problem with the ages of some players like De Villiers - as long as they keep on performing.   However,  I do not agree with selecting out of form players and have rugby geriatrics on the bench.   We have players like Steenkamp on the bench - what is the purpose of that for instance.   That is where we should bring in younger players - like the AB's do in most cases.  

In the last test Meyer fouled up with selecting Kruger and Van der Merwe - after repeated failures by Kruger.   Why not put Du  Toit on the bench - as it turned out to be - he should have been starting anyway.   We now have Bakkies around.   Somehow I think Meyer will have him as starting and have Flippie on the bench or the other way around.  That is where he would be wrong again.

Both Ruan Pienaar and Fourie du Preez are in their thirties.  Du Preez ran out of steam in the Ellis Park test and he brought on Pienaar.   Even though I do not agree with the selection of Schreuder - the situation would be rather to have a younger player on the bench for future growth purposes.

 I am not talking at all about about age here - I am talking about a coherent replacement programme and fazing in of players.   There are players who are out of form - even though some would disagree about who is out of form and who not.

De Villiers is not even discussed in this thread and even Saffex belatedly had to concede that he is our form player at center.   I never had a problem with De Villiers.   Where I say we are wrong  is by not having a fazing in programme like New Zealand by using the bench for such a programme.  

The bench players in some cases - like Steenkamp - whose form is questionable in any event - should rather be replaced by younger players.    I do not agree to with bringing in of Botha at this stage.   He was great as a player - but has not played Test rugby for two years now and there is no certainty about what his form is at present.   At best a gamble - and Meyer is about the omitting  a player like Du Toit - who should be at least on the bench - to have him.   That really represents in my opinion  a real problem with the fazing in programme.     

Boktwat, you keep reaffirming just how stupid you are.

I'll keep this short and sweet as you are not worthy of too much time.

Thompson would be the incumbent if he was available, we all know he is better than Messam

Jean has never been my choice at 12, Serfontein has. Its your opinion that Jean is the best centre in SA, he is not in my opinion, its that simple. I did concede that he has been good this year, but I prefer Serfontein - comprendo?

When I talk a blend of youth and experience - my experience comes in the form of Habana, JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Jannie and Brussouw.......that's 10 players to draw on........you getting the picture yet dumbass?

Oh and on the point of centres, just because the AB's happen to have two experienced centres as their best, does not mean that SA has to be the same. How thick are you?

Dutchman you really are a thick plank.......my point is that Meyer brings in old players who will either be sitting on the bench or not playing at all.

The difference is that the AB's do not do that, their back-up players are predominately young other than Cockett and Mealamu. When Hansen brings in new players he brings in youngsters......he does not go back to the likes of Aplon, Fourie, Steenkamp and Bakkies

Get it Domdoos?

Ceradyne

I will be quite frank - Botha has played rugby on a level lower than Super 15 - maybe on CC First Division - so how do you know whether he can perform on test level at all?   That is the point.

He is playing comparatively little rugby compared to local players - so are the players from Japan - and if the form of Gurthro and Fourie de Preez is anything to go by - they run out of steam early in games like happened to Du Preez in the Ellis Park test where he was bog ordinary.   Will Botha be any different?   I do not think so.      

 'I will be quite frank - Botha has played rugby on a level lower than Super 15 - maybe on CC First Division - so how do you know whether he can perform on test level at all?   That is the point.'....says the OOM.

S15 is also a lower level than test rugby as is CC. But that didn't stop you from howling for players to be inluded in the Bok team, just because of good CC form. For the record here are some players who have been included after good S15 form, and failed:

Greyling, Nyakane, Adriaanse, Kruger, Coetzee, van Zyl, Serfontein, Mvovo, Daniels, Potgieter, Taute.

Here are some older players who have been brought back and contributed mightily to the Boks:

Louw, F du Preez, Habana, Alberts.....a nd I expect before it's over Bakkies, Fury, and maybe even Bekker and Schalk will be added to that list.

 Mozart

You must be kidding - you cannot be even remotely serious or must be smoking some really strong stuff.   I have never advocated the bringing in of  Greyling,  Adriaanse,  van Zyl, Kruger,  Daniels and Potgieter.

The other players you mentioned I said could come into the picture depending on form in  Super 15 - a serious proviso.

And Alberts contributing mightily to the Boks - sure I agree - he contributed mightily to the Ellis Park test loss by the Springboks - for the rest he contributed nothing to anything.   O yes - according to you he was a great in the CC Final - but on analysis of every ball he touched and every tackle he tried - he was actually bog ordinary or even poor.

Mozart - the one-incident junkie at his best in delusion.

Ceradyne

I will be quite frank - Botha has played rugby on a level lower than Super 15 - maybe on CC First Division - so how do you know whether he can perform on test level at all?   That is the point.

He is playing comparatively little rugby compared to local players - so are the players from Japan - and if the form of Gurthro and Fourie de Preez is anything to go by - they run out of steam early in games like happened to Du Preez in the Ellis Park test where he was bog ordinary.   Will Botha be any different?   I do not think so.      

Ceradyne

Bullshit baffles brains.  In Top 14 - they (SA players) play 26 matches - home and away and in Heineken Cup - mostly only three in the Round Robin.  Very few play test rugby and most play at most 29 matches a year.

In SA the situation is entirely different.   Players play 16 games in Super 15, 12 in tests, 4 in CC.   That besides the 3 warm-up matches before Super 15.   That makes for 34 or 35 matches per season for most SA players   - all on a much higher level than they play in Club Competitions in Europe.  

Anyway - you cannot really add the test matches in the case of SA players - if they do - they mostly miss out on matches in France and the UK.  Despite all that - they have to rest some of the Club  players - because they run out of steam.

Ceradyne

Balls and balls again, the number of Super 15 games is 16 with potentially three further games added - ie the play-offs and semi and final.   SA plays 12 tests a year - not 7 - and the normal contribution is a further 3 warm up games for Super 15 - standard practice and 3 CC games, the number of games can be as high as 37 - and as low as 34.   Can you please learn to count.

Sorry - duplication

Most of them missed the point completely of what you were saying Saffex...you were using the NZ team as a balanced example so these dolts went off at an angle on JDV,Bakkies and others.

How dumb and thick???...as I said before the problem in Saffaland is mindset and lack of creativity and the ability to think...that has to change...non-progression because of fear of failure = backwards + panic....oh yes, I forgot...and more honesty to admit it and do something about it instead of looking for excuses and blaming the wrong factors.

No doubt some will be on to me like a pack of hyenas because they won't understand the context of what is being said here.

Ceradyne

Balls and balls again, the number of Super 15 games is 16 with potentially three further games added - ie the play-offs and semi and final.   SA plays 12 tests a year - not 7 - and the normal contribution is a further 3 warm up games for Super 15 - standard practice and 3 CC games, the number of games can be as high as 37 - and as low as 34.   Can you please learn to count.

 Ceradyne

Still cannot count/   Three tests in June. 6 tests in the RC and three tests in the EOYT

3 + 6  =  9  + 3  =  12

Have you failed in St b when you were in school?   Must have.

 Dumb Saff, no one is saying we have to copy the AB's and play two old centres. What I am saying is that your stupid head thinks Jean is past it and too old. You also think Meyers selections of old players makes no sense.

We know what JJ can (or should I say cant) do and what Fourie can do. Fourie takes the cake.

We know what Kruger can do, we know what Bakkies can do..Bakkies takes the prize!

Doesn't matter their age if they are still better than what we have got.

Jean is the best centre in SA at the moment and that is no maybe. That is a fact. He is also our captain. Now you wana drop him for an oke who went missing on the big stage a few weeks ago. I understand he was playing on the wing but still, total non entity! Might as well have not taken the field when Habana was injured!

Your list of "experience"!

Habana, JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Jannie

Habana - a must

JP - Good player

Frans - to play over who? He is nowhere near ready to become a regular again.

Hougaard - Overrated. No space for him in the match 22/23. Better wings + better scrummies in McCleod, Kockett, Reinach and co..

Beast - we will keep him

Bismarck - a must

Strauss - good player. Has to bench due to Bizzie

Chilliboy - Not the worst around but not Bok material and 2 hookers above him that prove he is out of his depth

Jannie - What experience do you want to draw from him for youngsters? How to slip tackles?

So 2 of your "experienced" members can not be on the park anyway due to Bizzie.

Some of the old boys back:

Botha - Can teach the younger locks a few good tricks and inspire grunt and confidence in them just being around

Du Preez - Still our best scrummy. All our other options can learn a lot from him

Fourie - Since his departure, 13 has been a headache. Does all the basics right and makes his tackles. JJ is not half the player currently.

I dont think Thompson would play over Messam. Luatua is a much better allround player than Thompson and Messam is preferred over him. In fact, I dont think there would be place in the squad for Thomson with the riches NZL has right now! Incumbents se poes!

Oh an Dave,

"Oh and on the point of centres, just because the AB's happen to have two experienced centres as their best, does not mean that SA has to be the same. How thick are you"

You are very right but our two most experienced centres in the squad ARE still our best fool! Only you would wana drop Jean!

Ceradyne

I cannot believe my eyes - did you really write the following:-

"You are saying that, come the EOYT, the NH players will not be able to keep up because they will have been exposed to less rugby."

Seriously now - where did I say that?   I cannot remember that at all.   What I did say is the level of rugby for the Club Players from the NH may be a problem.   I specifically mentioned Fourie Du Preez as an example of where he did well in the Aussie test and faded out the next week against the AB's - clearly running out of steam.   That is largely because -  as Kahui put it - they play "soft" rugby - not the level and kind of rugby expected on test level.

That is a huge difference from saying that they cannot compete because they have played to little rugby - the less ruby they might have played the better - since they will be fresher than players with a huge number of games this year already.  It has more to do with the physical condition and stamina of the players than anything else.   I mentioned in another thread - that Francois Steyn came back  from France as fat as a pig and so was Steenkamp  - both really unfit.   They seem to relax both their diet and physical regimen when playing Club Rugby - why would it only happen to the exam[les and not the rest?

"You are saying that, come the EOYT, the NH players will not be able to keep up because they will have been exposed to less rugby."

Ceradyne

You are worse than Mozart  - who thinks that the rugby playing life of players start at 28 or better still 30.   I was talking about the level of rugby and issues relating to physical condition and stamina of players - you dumb bunny.  That may be the result of less games play per year in Japan - but is equally likely to be relating to the level of rugby they play for their Clubs.   Implication - they run out of steam in tests - because the level is so much higher than they have been exposed to and because they are physically not up to the standard they should be.  Comprehende? 

Ceradyne

Don't be f#cking brainless.   Do you still believe that the level of rugby played by Clubs are the equivalent of Super 15 - dumb one or even CC level?   You see all the test players of the past in teams IN THEIR DECLINING STAGE OF THEIR CAREERS  and then think that they still maintain their level of play that they used to in their prime - so the Club rugby must  be SOOO STROOONNNGGG. 

Hell - you are on the Mozart bandwagon too - the type who believes that the rugby life of players start at 30 and that they get better as they get older than that.

Moz, sorry but you are speaking nonsense regarding the failings of Taute, Nkanyane, v/Zyl and Coetzee and in particular Serfontein at test level.

Taute has only had three test, two of which were good against Oz and Ireland, one average against NZ......hardly the mark of a failure. He was never dropped, he got injured and remains in Meyer's plans.

Nkanyane has yet to start a test, has had a few solid performances off the bench.......he has not failed at all. Got left out over disciplinary issues.

Serfontein has yet to start and has only had a few minutes off the bench as a Bok, so saying he has failed is complete bullshit.

v/Zyl has had little time off the bench, so saying he has failed is rubbish

Coetzee remains in the Bok squad and failed as a 6 as he is not a 6. Meyer cocked that selection up.

Habana and Alberts have not been brought back, they have always been in the side.

What exactly has Louw done this year and for that matter apart from du Preez half against the Bargies, he has done stuff all of note - he has been solid at best.

What the Kiwi model has taught us or should still teach our current coaching staff and it is nothing about age. Its about freedom of play and not relying on a rigid game plan of power and physicality.

I see in the junior structures, when they go from school to u19 set-ups where they follow this pattern and when it doesn't work they don't know how to adapt. Althought I do believe physicality is important to a certain extent, its our players inability to attack the spaces which is holding our rugby back. New Zealand are showing us that winning can be done by playing an attractive game where their players both FORWARDS and backs have super skill sets in order to play rugby this way and you cannot tell me with our talent in this country our players don't have the raw skill-sets to do it as well. Our systems are getting it coached out of them ?

WPXV

Thanks for bringing that one up - a practical example is Swiel - the ball sense wiz kid in his school days.   They are well on their way to coach it out of him.  That is the problem in SA - the coaching is not aimed at comprehensive rugby - which ultimately let us down.   You really knows your rugby  - so thanks again.     

Very much so Mike.

I fear for him if he isn't allowed to play his game if and when he gets to the Province seniors.

He dictated play for WP u21's and its no coincidence that they dominated the u21 Currie Cup with him as play-maker. John Dobson certainly got the best out of him and in turn got the best out of the WP u21 backline.  

Notice...I don't get involved in discussing individual players...that's not because I do not follow them but my argument is a wider spectrum...the spectrum or construction of players...human beings in team sports tend to blame individuals...no individual makes a team ...the odd man that flashes a result makes the headlines but no one individual can constantly keep the team firing ...he can help every now and again but can never keep a side's success in winning. Learn and observe.