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FORUM / RUGBY /  The only way out of the current mess.....

The only way out of the current mess.....

Started by Mozart41 REPLIES972 VIEWS· 12 Sept 2016, 02:21
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Sept 2016, 02:21
#1
12 Sept 2016, 02:21#1
....is to play a game plan the majority of the players can execute. The majority of the team can't suddenly execute the Lions game plan. Even the 5 Lions who were on the park at various times couldn't execute the Lions game plan in the absence of their Lions colleagues.
We can try to improve skills during the campaign. Certainly we can improve passing skills, particularly among the forwards....we can come up with a few set plays, particularly for those times we are deep in the opponents quarter........what we can't do is rely on the Lions rat-a-tat passing tactics.

If we want to play that way this year...accept the losses and the rare bright moments. But it will take years and remarkably consistent selections to get the Boks playing like the Lions. Nor will over populating the Boks with Lions accomplish that. There just aren't enough Lions who are test quality.

To me it's been striking how much better our backline looks with Jantjies off the park....the speed picks up, there are less handling errors and the players are engaged.

Pick a sensible team, play a sensible game, make your tackles.....kick your penalties and we will win most of our matches. Continue down the path we are on and the only thing we will accomplish is to inculcate this generation of players with the habit of losing.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Sept 2016, 06:04
#2
12 Sept 2016, 06:04#2
 

The only way Mozart describes are based on a number of serious misconceptions – basically because he is against everything new in rugby.   The problem  is not only with the players, but as he referred to with the s0-called game plan as well.    He believes there is a game plan – most people think there is none.

The Game Plan fib

Coetzee at the Stormers had a concoction of what he believed was a game plan – most of which neutralized the backline from any real attacking opportunities.   The plan consisted mostly of ineffective kicking – representing handover of bal possession to the opposition.   When the recipient then counter-attacked defence is stretched to the limit and often enough penalties are given away.

Kicking of the relevant nature straight to a waiting recipient is never acceptable and when one suggests a more ball in hand approach Mozart flips a lid and suggested that the idea is representing All Blacks style of play.   The question he never contemplates is what are the results of the kicking game he prefers?      The answer in the main is just easy handover of ball as it happened on Saturday when balls were kicked constantly at Folau – one of the best high ball players in world rugby.  

However, there is in Coetzee’s  case – like in his coaching of the Stormers – no real game plan and to eve suggest there is one is really silly.    As long as Coetzee i in charge the team will be a flop since he is really clueless when it comes to team selection, as well as player development and utilization.

Team selection

Selection is a major problem since there are effectively three problems involved, namely –

*      the need to make quota selections;

*       total ignorance of any need or selection of combinations; and

*       selection of players incapable of playing a cohesive game plan.

Much has been written about the quota issue – but not enough is being said about player combinations.   This also was a weakness of Meyer – but it is a disaster with Coetzee.   He just does not get it right.   The Tight 5, the loosie combination and the various backline combinations are all wrong and then we get individual players being blamed for that deficiency.      As long as the need for combination play is ignored – that long the team will lose.

Te worst problems  are with the  team selection where the worst combination is found in respect of the loosies and the inside backs.   The loosie comnbination is a joke in bad taste and to bring in another pace-deficient loser in the form of Alberts will just make matters worse.

The ideal team    

The problem is that the injuries of key players are causing problems and some players are incapable of combining with the replacement players brought in.   My personal selection of the ideal team would be as follows:-

15   Goosen, 14 Combrinck, 13 Vorster, 12 Van Resburg/De Allende, 11 Habana, 10 Pollard/Lambie, 9 De Klerk, 8 Vermeulen, 7  Whitley/Labuschagne, 6 Kriel, 5 Du Toit/De Jager, 4 Etzebeth, 3 Malherbe/Redelinghys, 2 Marx, 1 Kitshof/Beast

/16 Marx, 17 Redelinghuys/Malhere, 18 Mtawarira, 19 De Jager/Du Toit, 20 Labuschagne/Whiteley, 21   Reinach, 22 Pollard/Lambie, 23 Mapoe

However, the above team  will from a quota perspective not be acceptable.   And there are too many players not available due to injuries.   Based on the available players  I would pick the following team for Saturday’s test:-

15  Kriel, 114 Hougaard, 13 Mapoe, 12 De Allende, 11  Habana. 10 Goosen, 9 De Klerk, 8 Whiteley,, 7 Louw, 6 Kriel, 5 Du Toit, 4 Etzebeth, 3 Koch, 2 Strauss, 1 Kitshof

16 Marx, 17 Mtawarira, 18 Adriaanse, 19 Mostert, 20 Louw, 21 Paige, 22 Steyn, 23 De Jongh

The last three  players should not have been anywhere near the squad – but stupidity by the coach reigned supreme in that case.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Sept 2016, 06:47
#3
12 Sept 2016, 06:47#3
Sure, let's see Mapoe and Allende against the ABs. Why they would do better than they did against the Bargies is a mystery...or indeed why Mapoe would do better than his mare against the Canes is also a mystery.
I can't argue with Goosen ahead of Captain Confusion Jantjies, but will he hold up against the ABs, I doubt it.
And not content with playing lightweight Whiteley, we add lightweight Kriel. NZ is going to destroy these lightweights just as the Canes did a few months back....the Poms would do the same.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that side would do better than the team against Oz, and reasons to believe they will do even worse.
It's just the usual naive shuffling of the deck chairs on the Bok ship as it continues to sink....without any answers on tactics. And conveniently many of the players in your no constraints team have zero form to commend them, because in the case of Vorster, Pollard, Lambie, Malherbe and Vermeulen they have been long injured. Others like Liggies and Janse are untested at a higher level.
Nothing here but a wish and a prayer. 


MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
12 Sept 2016, 07:40
#4
12 Sept 2016, 07:40#4
 "Inculcate" Mozart?Had to txt our old mate Ole Cruz to get the meaning of that pearler....
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 Sept 2016, 09:06
#5
12 Sept 2016, 09:06#5
 No Mozart ... you are still confused. How much longer are you going to subject us to this rank stupidity?
It's been years now. Don't you think it's time to call it a day? I most certainly do.
It's become tiresome reading through each of your posts. Rarely do we see anything of substance these days from you. Look at the above horse shy te!! 
You argue for the sake of arguing and you embarrass yourself by doing it with fabricated nonsense as a bases.
It's time to up your game ... or shut the faak up.





CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 Sept 2016, 09:26
#6
12 Sept 2016, 09:26#6
 The only way out is to start with the immediate dismissal of Coetzee and his incompetent staff. 
Nothing positive will ever happen while this mor0n and his stooges are running the show.
Most importantly, you appoint a skilled and experienced international coach and you allow him complete autonomy.  
In other words ... allow him to select his own staff, no matter from where across the globe ... do not dictate to him on selection ... give him complete authority to run the show as he pleases.
No restrictions ... it's a professional era. 
If that opportunity had been afforded Eddie Jones we would already have seen a massif improvement. 
Once this is in place the rest will come.
Instead we have to contend with Coetzee and Stick and their love of the quota.
They are incompetent to the extreme and we're tolerating them.
Why?


 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Sept 2016, 09:31
#7
12 Sept 2016, 09:31#7
 Mozart - You do not understand anything about rugby.   After a disastrous two years under Meyer - we now have another worst dolt in Coetzee.   One th ing is you have to build up a squad - especially since Meyer did nothing of the sort.    To do that you have to start selecting decent players.   All the loosies you criticize endlessly are in the 105 to 110 kg weight category and heavy, pacey and strong enough to compete - not the bumbling, clueless  and slow losers you favour.     Who do you want at center?   De Jongh was useless - really useless - on Saturday so you want t keep a 87kg player to contend with the 100kg plus centers of the AB's?  Was Saturday not a poor enough show to confirm that the ideas of Coetzee and you do not work out.      
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Sept 2016, 09:38
#8
12 Sept 2016, 09:38#8
It took about 20 years to dismantle South African rugby into the horse shyte it has become. It is going to take a long time, if ever,  and a hell of a lot more than a few changes to the team and/or coaching set-up to sort out this crap, l'm afraid.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Sept 2016, 10:00
#9
12 Sept 2016, 10:00#9
 Dr Moz has a point but in fact all the oaks need some guidance as they are hopelessly at sea.
Firstly I want to assure all that we will not achieve our potential until  merit is our selection criteria for coaches players and even admin. All talk of game plans adn player selection is secondary to this over riding question. Hence the bleak future.
I have listed many things that need addressing. Many of them are solvable.
However for the sake of the discussion - it is true we cannot overnight make the Boks play the Lions game. however it might not be as far off as some think. Remember the test last year in SA where the Bok backs shredded the hapless we abs? The crooked abs only won that test by a cheat implemented by mcheat.
Assuming one could wave a magic wand and get what one wanted. Fire Coetzee is topo of the list. Appoint Ackerman and his team with Beeno as over arching consultant.
 I would tell Ackkers he must build abok side from scratch and implement a lions style game plan. I would caution him not to give away forward dominance and would comment to him the following as a possible match 23.
Kitshoff, Marx, RedlinhuysEben, Lood (I hear so much bull about this guy)Marcel (6) Du Preez, and Du ToitThat pack would scare the living daylights out of the pap wee abs!!
Backs:Faf, PollardRohan and Kriel.Combrinck, Allende and  Willie
Reserves:Beast, Akkers, MalherbeKriel and Elstadt/ Du Preez
Van zyl, Lambie/Goosen. One must keep an eye on the young WP flyhalves doing so well. Eg Du Plessis
Vorster
There are a number of other guys that must be in the mix. Scrap all but the most outstanding older players. Hence Vermuelen if he returns to form can be considered. Train up a new young squad to play traditional powerhouse rugby combined with high level of attacking skills.
When checking out the current Bok side against who should be there barring injury one can see how far off we are from this benchmark Bok side.
I can already hear the squeals about Allende on the wing.He is of course faster than he appears being a big guy and will be difficult to stop near the line.
The key is having Beeno as the overarching consultant to be the mind pulling it all together. 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 Sept 2016, 10:08
#10
12 Sept 2016, 10:08#10
 Forget about the Lions way of playing rugby. 
Thinking that that will solve all our issues if foolish.
Put a proper coach in charge and let him do his thing ... unhindered.
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
12 Sept 2016, 10:48
#11
12 Sept 2016, 10:48#11
 So Hasbeeno, the Bok backs shredded the ABs but you lost the game? Bwahahahahaha!!You are a fool. That squad you have named still wouldn't get within 20 points of the ABs. This is all hypothetical nonsense anyway. It ain't gonna happen; get it through your thick skull. Stick to tennis, something else you know little about...
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Sept 2016, 11:00
#12
12 Sept 2016, 11:00#12
 mooo la la al why do you insist on showing your ignorance sigh!!!!!I am referring to the match in  South Africa where our backs were markedly superior. Only a cheat by mcheat saved the game for the hapless we abs in dying minutes.
wee cc wake up dope. The Lions play a style of rugby which has allowed them to dominate other SA sides. 
Man it's dopes like wee cc that show why we are lagging behind. The Boks very clearly are the least skilled side around playing a brand of rugby that should never ever have been adopted. Any idea we can't play decent attacking rugby is a load of crud as our rugby history proves as does our school boy rugby as do the Lions with limited personnel and a limited budget. Its called balanced rugby.  Yes Moz is correct it will take time fro the boks to change and it will take a change of coaching staff, merit selections etc. Hence my referring to a magic wand.
Wake up wee cc you are making a compete twit of yourself once again.
That dumbo Coetzee has no clue on how to get the Boks going.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Sept 2016, 13:28
#13
12 Sept 2016, 13:28#13
 There is obviously another way out: stopping that whole garbage thing known as SA XV rugby.
As shown by the past, this does not make money, wealth. It is a burden on a country that was bled of its resources by excellent men.

That kind of luxury can be justified when it is not a burden. No longer the case, SA resources are gone and SA excellent men did not put SA on the map other than for the apartheid and a nice funneling of resources toward the outside.

None of this was sustainable.

This kind of luxury could be tolerated as a sacrifice if SA rugby was number one. Still not a sensible decision but tolerated.

SA XV rugby is a loser rugby. It wont win. SA is behind in terms of training players and thinking the game. The gap will go enlarging.

The inclusion of black players happens to hide that fact. They are convenient scapegoats to avoid facing that XV rugby is a luxury that can not be justified in SA.

The vision of a fully white squad is a nightmare for the ANC. The squad will only keep losing (and at losing against squads that include sometimes more non white players than SA quotas demand)
It will appear as it is: a bunch of priviledged people so infatued with their priviledged life they cling to it even when it comes to lose. They must be the ones who lose.

There is definitively another way out: that is ending the squandering of resources on an activity that only support losers.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Sept 2016, 13:31
#14
12 Sept 2016, 13:31#14

 ...Bean Brain yr mate serial rapist of SA talent Jake White has had a lot to say about the state of SA rugby... you;ve got to admire the audacity of someone who appears to be undermining SA rugby and actively encouraging players to leave and join his NH club can criticise the state of things...he professes his love for SA while simultaneously milking SA of talent and profiteering from the demise... 


A couple of his quotes...

“The writing is on the wall.” Bean Brain he has stolen one of your clichés here!!..


"The Springboks have surrendered four historic losses in the past 12 months – including defeats against Japan, Ireland and Argentina. The recent resignation of SA Rugby president Oregon Hoskins, and the retirement announcement of Bok captain Adriaan Strauss, has come at a time when the gap between the quality of rugby in New Zealand and South Africa is arguably at its widest since the game went professional."


“The difference is that New Zealand are not using rugby as the benchmark for their success. The All Blacks coaches aren’t measuring themselves against the greatest rugby teams, they’re looking at the greatest professional sporting teams in the world – Barcelona FC, Ferrari’s F1 team…"


Bean Brain, Jake is such a shameless name dropper but he does make some good points...

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Sept 2016, 13:32
#15
12 Sept 2016, 13:32#15
Traditionalist, sorry if this seems a bit pedantic but if you're going to use the word "privileged" about 5 times in every post then at least learn to spell it. Thanks.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 Sept 2016, 14:25
#16
12 Sept 2016, 14:25#16
 My dear Beandip ... I'm a smidge curious.
You dislike the Kiwis and everything about them, right ... so how come you want us to adopt their style of play?
You do realise that it's Mitch and co who brought this into the Lions camp, right ... or didn't you think it through properly?


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Sept 2016, 16:44
#17
12 Sept 2016, 16:44#17
 Nobody is denying we need a better coach. Nobody is denying that the whole quota process is toxic and undermines our rugby......that in the era of professional rugby you can't play even one semi passenger like Mahoje.

But to argue that Coetzee is failing because he doesn't pick 98kg Kriel or Stephanie is laughable. These two players won't change anything.....in fact Stephanie was front and centre in our Saturday loss.
It's simple, we don't have a team, a strategy that suits the players we have chosen and any leadership on the field. No deck chair switching is going to change that.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Sept 2016, 20:08
#18
12 Sept 2016, 20:08#18
 It is indeed that simple. SA XV rugby team can not be evolved. The resources to sustain the process are not there and the SA ways are outdated.

It is a dead end. The merit solution is to end XV rugby in SA.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Sept 2016, 20:17
#19
12 Sept 2016, 20:17#19
 T, we have more rugby resources than NZ and Oz combined. We manage it poorly....I said more, not better....but we are really not utilising our full potential...not even close, and fools like you are to blame for most ilk in this country.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Sept 2016, 20:24
#20
12 Sept 2016, 20:24#20
 No. The current standards for rugby players in SA are outdated.

A country with one million 1910 rugby player standard people will not win against countries with 70 2016 rugby standard players.

The ways of doing in SA are antiquated. They bring nothing. And SA lack the resources to move forward.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Sept 2016, 20:33
#21
12 Sept 2016, 20:33#21
 My point exactly. We have the resources, but don't utilise it properly. Stop the BS and start communicating in standard English...the Illuminati Draco BS is tiresome. 
XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
12 Sept 2016, 21:00
#22
12 Sept 2016, 21:00#22
 How to read TheTraditionalists posts....
Step one: DON'T!!





This ends our lesson on interpreting priviliged and excellent dialect.Thank you for attending.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
13 Sept 2016, 09:24
#23
13 Sept 2016, 09:24#23
 No ... you are still not getting it. Is it really that difficult to grasp?
He is failing because he continues with proven failures in Nyakane, Lood, Louw, Mohoje, Jantjies, De Allende, De Jongh, Jesse Kriel, Goosen, Paige, Mbonambi, Kolisi and Morne Steyn.
He is failing because he thinks that the deeds of yesteryear (much like you) can be replicated a decade later and thus continues with the tired and elderly in Beast, Strauss, Louw, Alberts, Morne and Habana. 
He's failing because he refuses to move forward by selecting the on form talent of TODAY ... 
Like you, it hasn't dawned on him yet that we have to begin afresh ... to build from the ground up ... from scratch.
Jones would have selected on merit. 
Jones would have taken the on form talent we have and worked with them. 
Jones would not have had Beast in the mix. Nor would he have had Louw or Strauss ... and many others.
Jones would have made a massif difference to our side.
By merely replacing the quota coach and his utter ignorance for a Jones we would have seen the Boks whitewash the Irish ... crush the Pumas ... and spank the pathetic Ozzies.
Instead we have Coetzee and three losses this season so far. That's the difference.
You point your finger at the players ... calling them useless. You claim we don't have the talent. 
I point my finger at the coach and to the difference a quality coach like Jones would have done with what we have.




MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
13 Sept 2016, 09:40
#24
13 Sept 2016, 09:40#24
Hey "T", lay off the METH man!  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Sept 2016, 15:26
#25
13 Sept 2016, 15:26#25
cC ....look up the two Canes matches vs the Lions and learn.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Sept 2016, 19:21
#26
13 Sept 2016, 19:21#26
 Two matches he carped on = as per normal.   What about the fact that the Lions beat AA  the other 4 NZ teams?   Why must you always be a dolt - Mozart?     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Sept 2016, 20:40
#27
13 Sept 2016, 20:40#27
Because nincompoop, the Canes were the most succesful NZ team this year. Who but a loser like you would compare the Lions to the less succesful teams.....stupid even by your lofty standards OOm.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Sept 2016, 20:45
#28
13 Sept 2016, 20:45#28
 How many matches did they lose against NZ teams - I know they lost against the Highlanders and the Crusaders and was taken to the cleaners by the Sharks.   Sio they were beatable and the Lions has serious prop problems in their round robin game and they did not play well in the semi,   However, Jantjies was their downfall in both matches.   So wake up to facts dolt.     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Sept 2016, 21:06
#29
13 Sept 2016, 21:06#29
 No the Lions lost because the speed of the Canes defence nullified Jantjies offload game.....and because Savea totally dominated keintjie Kriel at the breakdown.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 05:43
#30
14 Sept 2016, 05:43#30
So suddenly his previous stupidity is ignored and Kriel got the blame.   Another lot of horsesh!t.   Even though you think otherwise there are three loosies playin as a combination - you really are confused as per normal.        
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 05:43
#31
14 Sept 2016, 05:43#31
So suddenly his previous stupidity is ignored and Kriel got the blame.   Another lot of horsesh!t.   Even though you think otherwise there are three loosies playin as a combination - you really are confused as per normal.        
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Sept 2016, 05:55
#32
14 Sept 2016, 05:55#32
 Pfffft....there aren't three loosies functioning as your primary fetcher Clown.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Sept 2016, 06:35
#33
14 Sept 2016, 06:35#33
 I thought you at one stage said that fetching is not to be expected from loosies.  At least loosies - all of them -must be pacey enough to protect the ball and contest for recovery of the ball or make turnovers.   The duds you support are neither acceptable in both cases.    
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
14 Sept 2016, 08:02
#34
14 Sept 2016, 08:02#34
 Aaaaah!! ... no comeback. As expected.
Game, set and match!!!


CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
14 Sept 2016, 09:13
#35
14 Sept 2016, 09:13#35
 #BringBackJorrie
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Sept 2016, 14:27
#36
14 Sept 2016, 14:27#36
 Ag CC look at your duds....Maakniks, Lambie, Redlinghuis, Mostert, Kleintjie Kriel and Wee Whiteley. You would build a team based on those players who are guaranteed test match duds.
The Lions players who have real test match potential are Faf, Marx, Combrink  and Janse Van Rensburg. Great, but where is our tighthead, where our number 8.....where is our flyhalf.
Our talent is at a low ebb. And to make matters worse, we simply let power-houses like Willemse leave. We gave up the Bok forward power edge. Last week with nicely spoken Wee Whiteley to the fore we were simply outmuscled by an Aussie pack.

This is all courtesy of over interpreting the Lions' success in Super rugby, a less demanding contest.


CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
15 Sept 2016, 09:44
#37
15 Sept 2016, 09:44#37
 Any luck with the home yet, mozart?
Your need is becoming more and more desperate each passing day.
  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2016, 14:45
#38
15 Sept 2016, 14:45#38
Message received but not understood.....explain.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2016, 21:28
#39
15 Sept 2016, 21:28#39
Now don't be a coward. You are trying to say something......say it.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
16 Sept 2016, 09:49
#40
16 Sept 2016, 09:49#40
 Coward? 
Of you? 
Haaaaaaaahahahahahahaaa!!!
What you gonna do, Mozart ... slap me to death with your soiled diaper?
It seems it's not only rugby that you insist an explanation on. 


 
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