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FORUM / RUGBY /  The quota

The quota

Started by Saffolk 42 REPLIES817 VIEWS· 30 Jun 2016, 13:44
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:44
#1
30 Jun 2016, 13:44#1
 

Its sad that we even have to raise this topic given that we are 22 years into freedom for all but still sadly reduced to this disgraceful anomaly in our sport. It would appear that unofficially the Bok side has to feature 5 players of colour in the starting 15.

 

If we are striving to select our best 15, how does this policy impact on that goal?

 

At fullback, Willie is the incumbent, he might not be in the greatest form of his life but class is perm, form temp and at 26 is still a baby. In Gelant, we have a real prospect to replace Willie, this kid has it all.....but right now Willie is our best.

 

On the wing, Combrink is our best player, but he is white, which throws a spanner in the works in terms of the quota as most of our players of colour seem to end up on the wing for some strange reason.

 

On merit, there is a host of players who could partner Combrink and who happen to be players of colour - they include Ulengo, Senatla, Kolbe (I don't see him as a 15), Sergeal Petersen, JP, Sithole, Ismeil, Zas, Skosan and Rhule. 

 

Ideally we would want to select two players of colour on the wing, but then we would have to lose our best wing in Combrink....or if we moved Combrink to 15, we would lose the x factor in Willie......we cant win here.

 

So on merit, we would only have one player of colour in the back 3, which is not ideal at all......but we would be pushed to select two given the quota equation.

 

At centre, Mapoe finds himself at 13 for the Boks but he is clearly not our best 13. He is a good player and has had a great Super series to date, but there are better options in Jessie Kriel for a start.....the best Jessie has provided for the Boks far outshines anything Mapoe has done at test level and I suspect a players like Vorster and Janse v/Rensburg would be better options at 13 than Mapoe. de Jongh is just too small for test rugby, so does not come into the equation. Mapoe is our best option as a player of colour at centre but he is not a merit selection. Am of the Kings looks like a good prospect, but time will tell.

 

At 12 Mnisi has had some really good moments, have always rated him but he is not close to the likes of de Allende, Serf, Frans Venter or Odendaal. Again we are stumped in terms of merit.

 

At 10 Jantjies has been brilliant this year and on merit is our starting 10, but what happens when Pollard returns and reminds us of just how good he is? Its a close call between Pollard and Jantjies - they offer polar opposites but I suspect the quota would swing it

 

At 9, Paige has been a very obvious quota choice, not nearly good enough to play test rugby. Faf, Hougaard, Reinach and Groom are all better.

 

So in the backs……on merit we could have one wing of colour and Jantjies at 10……with only the wing a dead cert for merit and merit alone, given the close call between Jantjies and Pollard.

 

It gets far worse in the forwards.

 

At loosehead we have Beast as the incumbent, he is not what he used to be, but is solid and provides experience. However, Kitshoff is better and potentially the best loosehead in the game…..so Beast is not the merit selection. Nyakane is a great player, but not better than Kitshoff. We could move him to tighthead but he would not be better than Malherbe or Marcel. Nqoboko is another handy loosehead but behind the others in terms of status.

 

At hooker we have two good players in Mbonambi and Scara……but they don’t come close to Bismark, Marx, Strauss or Akers……so we are stumped here. Mbonambi on the Bok bench has quota written all over it…..evidenced by his all of 1 min in 3 tests against Ireland.

 

There are no tighthead options other than Nyakane moving there.

 

Equally there are no locks at all to speak of when it comes to players of colour. Andrews and Orrie are not good enough to play CC rugby.

 

Amongst the loosies we have some really good players of colour in Kolisi, Carr, Notshe, Mtembu and Oupa……..unfortunately the first 3 are all similar in size and style and therefore limit ones options…..they all suite the openside role and therefore only one of them could be selected. Are they better than Jaco Kriel – NO. I quite fancy the idea of Notshe bulking up a little and playing 8 in the Skinstad mould……real talent this kid. Oupa is a good blindside but not physical enough to really make it ahead of a true bruiser. Big fan of Mtembu and he could be a real option at 8 but his injury this year has stifled his progression.

 

So on merit we have no starters of colour amongst the forwards.

 

So which 5 would we have to go with……..say Senatla on the wing and Jantjies at 10 as merit…….that leaves 3 merit players that need to be axed in favour of quota selections……Nyakane at loosehead, forcing Kitshoff to the bench, or Nyakane at 3 with Kitshoff at 1, forcing Malherbe to the bench, Notshe or Mtembu at 8, Kolisi, Carr or Notshe ahead of Kriel at 6, Ulengo on the other wing with Willie or Combrink forced to the bench depending on who you go with at 15. Retain Mapoe at 13…….play Oupa at 7 thereby conceding physicality. Oh to have to deal with this bullshit……why cant we just be like any other country and select the best 23 regardless of whether they are green/black or blue…….fuck sake

 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,267 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:55
#2
30 Jun 2016, 13:55#2
The quota stats you have are what they were during the Meyer era.
In 2016 and beyond- The quota only really applies to black players. Not sure if is immediate or by 2019
30% or more of the team must be black20% of more of the team must be of colourLess than 50% must be white

Coloured players are easily making up their 20%+ on merit
White players are easily making their number on merit
30% of the team must be black- and this is where we have little to no depth.
(This seems to be a problem across South Africa sport- and why the minister of Sport was going to ban SA from competing). 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:57
#3
30 Jun 2016, 13:57#3
 Bok coach is probably the hardest rugby job out there but it's unjustifiably difficult which makes being a supporter a struggle.
Oh and you left out Goosen 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:58
#4
30 Jun 2016, 13:58#4

I'm just going by Coetzee's side in the tests where there was always 5 players of colour starting


Mvovo, JP, Mapoe, Beast and Kolisi


Then JP, Mapoe, Jantjies, Beast and Kolisi

 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:28
#5
30 Jun 2016, 14:28#5
 The players of colour you have as merited selections are all 3rd or 4th in the pecking order.
I agree ... we have no players of colour to take up a spot in the forwards. Not even on the bench.
We may have the likes of a Gelant at 15 and probably an assortment to choose from for the left wing position ... I like Ulengo or Seargal Petersen ... but other than that, no other player of colour justifies selection ... not even on the bench ... and that includes your favourite ... Jantjies.
Both Pollard and Lambie are better options at 10.
So out of an entire squad of 31 players we only have 2 POC on merit. At 15 and at 11 ... and the jury's out on them as well. 
We need to select the finished article ... not someone who still needs to learn a certain skill set ... or ... bulk up to become better suited to the position. 
There are many white boys that also need to be cast aside. They too are hampering our progress. As bad as any quota. 
Jesse Kriel is simply worse than any quota I've seen. Much rather have De Jongh or Mapoe than this chump. 
Willie is another. So is Louw, Malherbe, Lood and De Allende.
We have MUCH better than these boys. 
That's why I said in an earlier post that we have a lot to do and that it's going to take a brave leader to do it. 
If only we could find such a leader. 
   


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:45
#6
30 Jun 2016, 14:45#6
 "Willie is the in[removed]bent, he might not be in the greatest form of his life but class is perm, form temp and at 26 is still a baby."
Really? Baby....? 26....? Is that really you who wrote that, Dave? 



CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:47
#7
30 Jun 2016, 14:47#7

Haaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!!
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:49
#8
30 Jun 2016, 14:49#8
 Ceradyne ... you posted a piece earlier of John Cleese ... where he's the argument councillor. 
From which Monty Python does that come from ? 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:55
#9
30 Jun 2016, 14:55#9
 

 Dave

 I am afraid the whole backline went belly-up because Jantjies is unable to take the step up from Super Rugby to test rugby.  Lets look at all aspects of his game:-

*    His defense is poor.

*    His kicking out of hand is routinely below par – the one cross kick does not negate that fact.     In the three tests he played in against the Irish – his kicking was poor.   When making relieving kicks they never found touch and bounced just about on the halfway line and allowed the Irish to constantly counter-attack.  He was so poor that towards the end of the last test the ball was passed to Combrinck to make the relieving kicks. 

*    his passing  game is based on inside passes and sometimes skip passes.   He made ne such inside pass that worked and tried the same numerous times and we no headway or even often enough lost possession as a result.   A further example was in the third test and is emphasized by the way he passed the ball to Mapoe when it was clear that the practised move was for De Allende to run at an angle and get the ball.   Mapoe got tackled and the upshot was a penalty to the Irish.

That is not what is to be expected from  an international flyhalf I am afraid.

As to the quota issue there is one thing seriously amiss in the process.   All players should perform – but the problem is that the basis laid on school level and under-age level is not sound enough to produce enough players coming through and being competitive. 

The end result is a case where merit is thrown out of the window  and sub-standard players selected in positions where they are by some distance not the best in the country.   They often enough are fourth, fifth or even lower in the positions in which they played.    Your hero is at best the 4th or 5th best flyhalf in SA – the better ones being Pollard, Lambie and Goosen – with some of the youngsters competing with him for the fourth position.         

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:22
#10
30 Jun 2016, 15:22#10
Mike take your rugby ignorance and shove it up your arse where it belongs.......you are fucking clueless......I did not bother reading your utter garbage re Jantjies  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:30
#11
30 Jun 2016, 15:30#11
 The truth hurts - so better to ignore it.  
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:32
#12
30 Jun 2016, 15:32#12
CC, I suspect that scene was originally from one of the Flying Circus's, but it is also on Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl? If you have not seen it, make the effort to do so. It is absolutely brilliant!  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:33
#13
30 Jun 2016, 15:33#13
 Thanks Bluebok. Appreciate it.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 15:54
#15
30 Jun 2016, 15:54#15
 Thanks Ceradyne ... 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 16:16
#16
30 Jun 2016, 16:16#16
Truth coming from you Mike has to be the joke of the decade......do you actually believe you know much about this game and I mean that sincerely.....do you honestly think I respect your take on Jantjies? Honestly?  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:01
#17
30 Jun 2016, 18:01#17
 Whether you believe in what I wrote - there has been numerous reports criticizing Jantjies - so all the critics are wrong and you correct? 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:12
#18
30 Jun 2016, 18:12#18
 I'm withya on Jantjies Maaik.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:15
#19
30 Jun 2016, 18:15#19
 Now this is what I call funny ... the two most ignorant posters going at it.
Let us see if they can actually present an argument based on facts.
They both have the "I'm an expert ... trust me I know what I'm talking about ... I don't need facts" thing about them.
Should be good for a laugh ... !!

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:16
#20
30 Jun 2016, 18:16#20
 Nope
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:21
#21
30 Jun 2016, 18:21#21
 What do you mean, Draad?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:26
#22
30 Jun 2016, 18:26#22
 It's not funny anymore. It's too difficult to read Dave's rants in between all the fuck fuck fuck's
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:30
#23
30 Jun 2016, 18:30#23

Oh wow we have fucking idiot CC telling me I am rugby ignorant......I rest my case


Mike, kindly point out those articles you lying prick  

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 18:36
#24
30 Jun 2016, 18:36#24
 You're slipping Dave, only 2 fuck's?
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
30 Jun 2016, 20:38
#25
30 Jun 2016, 20:38#25
Good post Saffex. Illustrates the constraints of the quota nicely. What is even more unfortunate is that, as Sharkbok points out, the quotas are probably even more restricting.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jun 2016, 21:20
#26
30 Jun 2016, 21:20#26
 Having had my fun, I must say this is one of Dave's best posts ever. I agree 100%...with most of it.
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
01 Jul 2016, 01:49
#27
01 Jul 2016, 01:49#27
 The sad thing (hypocrisy) is that a few years ago Olympic games were boycott , all sporting ties with SA were cut (as per United Nation resolutions) because SA teams were not selected on merit. Now that sporting bodies want to select teams on merit, we are blocked by our own government and nobody from the outside world does anything about it.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jul 2016, 02:42
#28
01 Jul 2016, 02:42#28
Good point Blikkies.....but this will have to be dramatized to raise the point forcefully.  A complete boycott would do it, but the players would be victimized....even overseas teams would be afraid to touch them.
So perhaps a starting point would be an appeal to the IRB or similar body. It would be hard for them to simply ignore an appeal from a credible source.

It's shameful stuff.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jul 2016, 19:47
#29
01 Jul 2016, 19:47#29
 I fear our beloved country is gone. We "Ctied the Beloved County " too soon. Moz, Denny, Saf, Shark, Cera, Bob and a few others. You got out in time.  Most likely too late for the rest of us. It's time to say goodbye. 
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
02 Jul 2016, 01:23
#30
02 Jul 2016, 01:23#30
 Draad
Now that you've mentioned my name let me to say that I left for very different reasons to what you might believe.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
02 Jul 2016, 06:08
#31
02 Jul 2016, 06:08#31
 Moz
Blikkies has no point, I don't understand how you can support the absolute rubbish he sprouts....perhaps you should start by investigating the reasons why South Africa was suspended by the IOC.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2016, 23:47
#32
02 Jul 2016, 23:47#32
It appears  South Africa was ejected because the Olympic Committee didn't reject racism. Do you think the ANC would pass that test? If actions speak louder than words they don't.
I see no problem with Blikkies point.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
03 Jul 2016, 05:45
#33
03 Jul 2016, 05:45#33
 So you can't see that South African law under Apartheid denied people of colour representing South Africa. The policy was for a whites only representative Olympic team and you are comfortable with that? To have merit selection all races would have had to compete side by side on a level playing field, well, merit selection didn't even come into the equation, it couldn't simply because there were no conditions for it.
It was against the law of the country.
You surprise me.
"Do you think the ANC would pass that test?"
Actually they do, and  have since re-admission....South African Olympic teams are represented by all ethnic groups.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2016, 06:22
#34
03 Jul 2016, 06:22#34
I don't think anybody on the Board is comfortable with that. But it's been said over and over again. Apologies have been made, the past can't be altered.
But the present and the future can. And past transgressions are no excuse for current inequities. And there is no doubt the quota system is inequitable. As is the workplace bias which has almost totally eliminated the Cape Coloured people from contact roles in hotels and airports in the Cape.
Your own people are suffering because of this bias, open your eyes Denny.....or talk to some of the Coloured people trying to find a job.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
03 Jul 2016, 07:26
#35
03 Jul 2016, 07:26#35
"...open your eyes Denny..." Fat hide of you to tell me that, my eyes have been open from  a very early age whilst living under Apartheid and paid a price, but at least I had the moral courage to stand up for what I believed to be morally wrong...question is was and is yours? And don't talk to me about "my people"...my people is the human race regardless of colour or creed, race or gender.......rich or poor. As for your term "coloured people" which I total abhor,a label stuck onto a particular ethnic group by the old regime,  being denied jobs.....I might let you know that I have family living in South Africa....5 sisters and 2 brothers not counting nephews and nieces but what and I quote..
"As is the workplace bias which has almost totally eliminated the Cape Coloured people from contact roles in hotels and airports in the Cape.Your own people are suffering because of this bias, open your eyes Denny.....or talk to some of the Coloured people trying to find a job."


has to do with Blikkies's post is a cheap diversion.
Over and out...I see no value here.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
03 Jul 2016, 09:16
#36
03 Jul 2016, 09:16#36
 Wow ... what crawled up your tail pipe and made nest there?
As far as I know you were a kid when you left these shores. The decision wasn't yours to make, so please enough with this ... "but at least I had the moral courage to stand up for what I believed to be morally wrong" ... 
Is that what you're telling everyone that side? 
Stop strutting your stuff as though you were some kind of freedom fighter fighting to liberate the oppressed. You weren't ... and besides that, this image you're so desperately to portray doesn't suit you ... hiding under the bed does.
The ANC have done nothing to advance us in any way. Quota selections is racist ... both in sport and business ... it's nobody's right to represent his country. Either you have the skill set to make the grade or you don't. In other words it's something you work towards ... something you earn through hard work ... not merely a handout like at some soup kitchen.
It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.
Were you a member of the ANC? Are you currently a member? Sure sounds like it.
Of course Blikkies makes a point. A very good point in fact. 
Can't you see that?
You are a bitter man, Denny ... there's a lot of sensitive scar tissue there and you need to deal with it or it'll haunt you for the rest of your days.

 


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Jul 2016, 09:56
#37
03 Jul 2016, 09:56#37
Ou dense denise showing his very racist colours again.  He is so dense he can't see the huge contradiction in what he is saying. Hahahhahahahahaha what a clown this dope is!
It cannot be denied that anc racism is messing up our sport and the country generally.
Dense, I suggest you read the posts here carefully where even wee cc is trying to set you right. Then repent of your well known racism.I have heard coloureds complaining about anc racism many times so no lieing about that one please. Hence their big support for the DA.
Beeno as always standing for merit selections in sport and in the workplace.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
03 Jul 2016, 10:07
#38
03 Jul 2016, 10:07#38
 Denny, irrespective of your reasons for leaving, you are better off.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Jul 2016, 10:17
#39
03 Jul 2016, 10:17#39
Oz is a far better run country for sure. How the heck they accepted dense denise though! He must hold spun them a BIG story!
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
05 Jul 2016, 10:32
#40
05 Jul 2016, 10:32#40
 Blikkies, klop ...... they're a klomp hypocrites .

 Draad, thank gawd not all of us chose the 'chicken run'
without you, we wouldn't have a Bok team to agonise over .
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